http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism
QUOTE:
The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.
A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."
I understand the thinking behind wanting immigrants to your country to assimilate into your country's culture (especially when you live in a country that actually HAS culture), but I'm not sure such a policy has ever worked out well and I definitely DON'T agree with targeting one specific group with such a policy.
A lot of major clusterfucks have started with targeting one specific group that "nobody likes" and eventually ended up shitting on everybody.
I'm of mixed feelings.
Unlike the US and other colonial nations, the Netherlands is not a culture based on a hodgepodge of invaders; it actually has an original culture to protect. Let's ignore for a moment the extreme irony of them deciding to protect their own culture from invaders after raping the shit out of so many others.
This:
QuoteThe government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013.
If necessary, the government will introduce extra measures to allow the removal of residence permits from immigrants who fail their integration course.
is weird and self-contradicting. Why were there special subsidies for Muslims in the first place?
And Donner says "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." but, herp derp, if you want them to integrate, shouldn't you be proactive? The US programs for immigrant integration were highly successful; it's a shame we discontinued them. But the article then goes on to mention an integration course. So wait; on the one hand, the government IS trying to integrate them, while on the other hand claiming it's not their job? Pick one.
I do not at all like the part about outlawing garments that cover the face, or "tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress". What bullshit is that? Basically, it sounds like if you're visibly Muslim and you're discriminated against, the government is totally cool with that and you're going to get punished for being discriminated against? That's fucked up. They're legislating what you can WEAR? Some kind of national dress code? What's next, ticketing anyone who isn't wearing suspenders and wooden shoes?
Lastly, while I do appreciate the desire to preserve their own unique culture, hopefully they're also keeping in mind that a living culture is not static, but ever-changing and evolving, and that you can't put it in a museum to protect it against change for all time. An unchanging culture is a dead culture.
:mittens: to that entire post, Nigel.
I don't know much about the native culture of the Netherlands. My only real frame of reference is the US, whose government as far as I know, is generally far to right of most European governments. But if new policies like the one in the article were introduced here, our political system would probably explode in all kinds of exciting and scary ways. Even here, where at least half of the population has a sturdy distrust and dislike for "immigrants" (whether they actually immigrated here or just look like they did), laws like this would probably not pass.
Imagine a new law in America that outlawed sombreros or made speaking Spanish a crime, or encouraged employers to discriminate against Spanish speakers. Sure there are plenty of people who would LOVE to see that happen here, but despite what they like to think they don't have the political power to actually DO it. So I'm confused as to why this is happening in the Netherlands and makes me wonder if the US is really as tolerant as I think it is.
Thanks, guys.
It's really hard to compare the US to the Netherlands when it comes to immigration; policies that would work for them would most likely not work for us at all. For instance, we don't have a national language. Our culture itself arose from successive waves of immigration; as much as people may fight it, immigration is deeply entrenched in our culture. The immigration story, as an archetype, is part of our national identity. That's not the case in places like the Netherlands, so they have different issues.
It's further complicated by the fact that there is no social infrastructure already in place for Muslims there. Here, assimilating a Mexican Catholic family is a piece of cake, because the Irish broke that ground and there's already a place for Catholics here. The cultural similarities are already really strong, and really the only major thing other than appearance that separates most Mexicans from most Americans is language. So, they assimilate into our culture within a generation. Other religious groups that place less emphasis on their identities as a member of that religion also tend to assimilate well. The entire Muslim identity is distinct, and it's built into the religion that a person's entire existence IS AS A MUSLIM, so you can't separate the individual from the religion. That means that in order for them to integrate, the culture they're integrating into has to shift. That's obviously what the Dutch are resisting. It's a pretty major conflict, and not likely to be resolved easily.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 24, 2012, 07:11:06 PM
I'm of mixed feelings.
Unlike the US and other colonial nations, the Netherlands is not a culture based on a hodgepodge of invaders; it actually has an original culture to protect. Let's ignore for a moment the extreme irony of them deciding to protect their own culture from invaders after raping the shit out of so many others.
This:
QuoteThe government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013.
If necessary, the government will introduce extra measures to allow the removal of residence permits from immigrants who fail their integration course.
is weird and self-contradicting. Why were there special subsidies for Muslims in the first place?
That's a good question. And TBH, when I saw that, part of my mind went "WTF? I'd love to get out of this fucking country and nobody's going to subsidize ME".
"Somebody's getting something I can't have" is the entrance ramp to all kinds of stupid prejudice, though. Maybe these were refugees from some horrible war-torn area. Maybe not. Need more information.
QuoteAnd Donner says "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." but, herp derp, if you want them to integrate, shouldn't you be proactive? The US programs for immigrant integration were highly successful; it's a shame we discontinued them. But the article then goes on to mention an integration course. So wait; on the one hand, the government IS trying to integrate them, while on the other hand claiming it's not their job? Pick one.
Most things Dutch seem contradictory as fuck. :lol:
QuoteI do not at all like the part about outlawing garments that cover the face, or "tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress". What bullshit is that? Basically, it sounds like if you're visibly Muslim and you're discriminated against, the government is totally cool with that and you're going to get punished for being discriminated against? That's fucked up. They're legislating what you can WEAR? Some kind of national dress code? What's next, ticketing anyone who isn't wearing suspenders and wooden shoes?
So much for tolerance over there. :x
I can haz new corner of teh world to wish I could move to? Probably not.
QuoteLastly, while I do appreciate the desire to preserve their own unique culture, hopefully they're also keeping in mind that a living culture is not static, but ever-changing and evolving, and that you can't put it in a museum to protect it against change for all time. An unchanging culture is a dead culture.
:mittens: "Preserve" is something you do with formaldehyde and jars.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 24, 2012, 08:36:33 PM
Thanks, guys.
It's really hard to compare the US to the Netherlands when it comes to immigration; policies that would work for them would most likely not work for us at all. For instance, we don't have a national language. Our culture itself arose from successive waves of immigration; as much as people may fight it, immigration is deeply entrenched in our culture. The immigration story, as an archetype, is part of our national identity. That's not the case in places like the Netherlands, so they have different issues.
It's further complicated by the fact that there is no social infrastructure already in place for Muslims there. Here, assimilating a Mexican Catholic family is a piece of cake, because the Irish broke that ground and there's already a place for Catholics here. The cultural similarities are already really strong, and really the only major thing other than appearance that separates most Mexicans from most Americans is language. So, they assimilate into our culture within a generation. Other religious groups that place less emphasis on their identities as a member of that religion also tend to assimilate well. The entire Muslim identity is distinct, and it's built into the religion that a person's entire existence IS AS A MUSLIM, so you can't separate the individual from the religion. That means that in order for them to integrate, the culture they're integrating into has to shift. That's obviously what the Dutch are resisting. It's a pretty major conflict, and not likely to be resolved easily.
I like the Canadian ideal ("ideal" might be key here, I know everything isn't fun and games there) of a "mosiac" rather than a "melting pot".
Ethnic neighborhoods don't have to be ghettos and as long as people are in said neighborhood by choice and not because it's the shitty part of town and they're barred from the "nice" part, it's probably ok. That's something I loved about Boston, they had the North End, Chinatown, etc.
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.
Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.
I've been hearing a lot of more worrying stories than this. Especially when blatantly racist parties such as the Anti-Muslim Freedom Party are gaining ground over there. There's stories about how Muslims aren't integrating, and others on how they are the cause of the downturn in the economy and it makes you wonder if they aren't out and out being used as a scapegoat.
Quote from: Lenin/McCarthy on June 24, 2012, 09:44:28 PM
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.
Thanks for that...I didn't notice the date (hurrr, derp) and a lot has happened since then.
QuoteAnyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.
I wonder if they're not just scapegoating anyway. Dutch culture has been around forever and withstood a lot more than a few Muslims moving in. It's not like they're rounding up Dutch kids and sending them to some Muslim equivalent of Carlisle Indian School. :x
In some ways, a lack of integration may be at the heart of why native Dutchspags and tanned Dutchspags from East Dutchspagistan don't get along too well.
European countries, barring France, didn't really have an integration policy of any kind at all, because mass immigration was never planned for. It was assumed that given a couple of generations, with no effort on the behalf of central government, things would sort themselves out and everyone would get on just fine.
That didn't happen. Immigrants holed themselves up in ethnic enclaves and their children, feeling the identity of their parents home countries rang false and that they were not accepted in this new country, turned to radical religion to forge an identity for themselves.
It's no coincidence two of the countries with the least coordinated integration policies, the UK and Holland, have some of the most radical Islamic populations in Europe (France has its own sizeable contingent as well, but for reasons unrelated to integration policy and more to do with the history of French involvement in North African and Middle Eastern covert wars). UK Muslims are far more likely to voice support for 9/11, or instituting Sharia Law, or that homosexuality and apostasy should be capital punishments than their counterparts in America, for example.
On the other hand, a high-handed "do it our way or GTFO" approach isn't going to work, for the reasons mentioned above, and is more likely to spur resentment. There is going to have to be give and take, on all sides.
Unfortunately, this problem has been allowed to fester, and it may already be the case that, at least with certain vocal segments, we've gotten to the point where they are not willing to negotiate at all - that even conceding a single inch would be seen as unforgivable and treachery of the highest order. Not among a majority on either side, thank goodness, but a hardcore plurality are certainly open to seeing things in that light, whether they're Muslim Brotherhood fanbois or "counter-jihadist" lunatics.
All I'm saying, as I am so fond of pointing out, is that sometimes things have gone too far for a nice, simple solution. Going back to the start and trying to work from a clean slate is nice, in theory, but in practice, there are no clean slates. Something will have to give. I'm hoping it's the fundamentalist attitudes of certain Muslim and Christian culture warriors, but I somehow doubt it.
Quote from: Lenin McCarthyThat article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.
This is the first I hear about NL seriously wanting to do away with multiculturalism as a policy, so I doubt it. There's been a lot of critique saying "the multicultural society has been a failure" and there's definitely some truth to that, it didn't work as well as we hoped, but on the other hand, just because there's still a lot of problems with integration doesn't mean the alternative would have worked better.
One problem I often see with these kinds of translated articles is that just because the House of Representatives (2e Kamer) decides something, doesn't mean it's actually going to happen. That's because the Senate (1e Kamer) needs to okay it first, and then there's always the chance that the government falls before its term is over and that usually means that a lot of stuff doesn't happen.
In a similar thing, the English WP article on Burqa's claims that we outlawed them for a fine of 380 euros. I'm not aware of any such laws. I think it got lost because they decided it in January but then our cabinet fell again.
Ineffective government is the best kind of government, sometimes :)
While it is true that NL has its own culture that we might want to preserve, it's also the case that contemporary Dutch culture is shaped a lot by immigrants as well. Notably the Indonesians from our colonial times, Turkish immigrant workers in 1964, Moroccan immigrant workers in 1969, Antillians, Surinamese following their independence in 1975, after the military coup of 1980, or after the December murders on 1982, and more.
Because of all those waves of immigrants we came up with our notion of a "multicultural society", and especially from the left side of politics been working hard to integrate everything.
I always liked this, mostly because Dutch cuisine on its own is quite boring.
But it's only been recently that the focus has been so strongly on Muslim culture. And it's weird because you mostly hear about the Muslim Moroccans, while I just looked up and it's the Turkish that form the largest group of Muslims in NL--which is why I though it was the other way around and maybe the Turkish aren't as religious, but they are--so obviously a lot of this mess is based on prejudice and not on facts.
Quote from: NigelWhy were there special subsidies for Muslims in the first place?
Because of the multicultural society thing. It's not just for Muslims, but as far as I'm aware the subsidies are available for all sorts of projects that work to integrate those large groups of immigrants. I'm unclear about the details.
Therefore, this seems to be more something about the economy is going to shit, and we need to spend less money on a lot of things, and subsidies for multiculti projects have been under fire for a while now thanks to the likes of Fortuyn and Wilders. The economic crisis is why nobody can has nice things, it's also cutting into our public healthcare system, social services and foreign/developmental aid, and all those other cool things that made the Netherlands into a country I could be kind of PROUD of. I mean of all the aspects of our culture that I want to preserve, it's those things, the socialism and the welfare state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state). Not some historial "original culture" of the Netherlands with the cheese and the tulips and windmills, that's for the tourists. There's a lot of active living and breathing culture going on in the Netherlands and a lot of that actually grew in the past century, partly from WW2, but also all these waves of immigrants and the multiculturalism that sprouted from that. They call it "cultural relativism", but the Dutch have known it since forever as "Just be yourself, that's crazy enough!"
About the headwear face-covering garments thing, the
only valid reason I see to actually legislate such things, is to be in accordance with similar laws that say you can't enter a bank building wearing a ski-mask either (but afaik we don't have a law like that in NL, currently).
On a personal level, I think requiring women to hide their entire bodies and faces is stupid and denigrating. But then, I think a lot of Christian customs are quite stupid as well, especially the tasteless depictions of gruesome torture scenes in Catholic churches without requiring ANY parental guidance, won't somebody think of the children??
Anyway, the only
valid way to get Muslim women to stop hiding themselves in cloth, is through multicultural integration and emancipation. And then if they still want to wear those things, then whatever. But ONLY if gay Muslim cross-dressing men also get to wear them without getting beaten up. Fair is fair.
A Dutch newspaper article I just looked up estimates there's 150-200 women in NL that wear a burqa or nikab. In that case, wtf are we even talking about. Put parental advisory and age limits on the Jesus gore slashfic depictions first, there's way more of those.
Quote from: FaustI've been hearing a lot of more worrying stories than this. Especially when blatantly racist parties such as the Anti-Muslim Freedom Party are gaining ground over there. There's stories about how Muslims aren't integrating, and others on how they are the cause of the downturn in the economy and it makes you wonder if they aren't out and out being used as a scapegoat.
That is absolutely true. Geert Wilders and his "Freedom Party" are scary as fuck.
Quote from: CainIt's no coincidence two of the countries with the least coordinated integration policies, the UK and Holland
Huh? Can you explain? I thought we were trying real hard to make integration and multiculturalism work, but we're not? What do other countries do even more, then?
France and Germany do a lot more, off the top of my head. Slovenia, surprisingly, does rather a lot as well. Italy's not great, Spain is kinda meh as well, but Holland and England traditionally have a "hands off, it will all sort itself out" approach to these kind of things, rather distinct from the rest of the continent.
Which isn't to say either of them do nothing, only they do much far less than the above mentioned countries. Minorities typically assimilate best in the USA and in France, though of course there are always exceptions.
Quote from: Lenin/McCarthy on June 24, 2012, 09:44:28 PM
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.
Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.
THAT'S FUNNY
i wandered around the site after reading that and found it interesting, but didn't notice the date!
IT'S LIKE
we have an instant back to the future opportunity. we're already a year later and we can see what happened!
I'VE
been to various parts of Holland several times, but not for about 8 years (kids don't take well to 14 hour flights, even with free booze). As an obviously white guy in appearance, i was intrigued to experience racism from other white people, which the Dutch seem to be brimming with. Most of the times being there, i was crashing with uber leftist liberal anarcho types (in a sweet as hell pad on the Herrengracht (sp?) ) so in vague ways i was insulated from perhaps the typical Dutch opinion.
HOWEVER,
it wasn't uncommon to have people make a derogatory "YANK" remark when my speech was overheard by others, especially walking around on the streets. i also found a fabulous disdain for all of their neighbors. kind of like how people from one US state make fun of their neighbor states i guess, but it was weird to me all the same. even outside of Amsterdam friends were all about hating on the germans and danish.
AT THE TIME,
i was also really aware that holland had some fairly tight immigration laws, which made sense. half the stoners in portland would be living on the dole, squatting all over that tiny holland town if it werent that way.
I DON'T
necessarily agree with nigel, because that's my job
HA HA
then there's this view, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395
QUOTE(S)
The EU should "do its best to undermine" the "homogeneity" of its member states, the UN's special representative for migration has said.
Mr Sutherland, who is non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs International and a former chairman of oil giant BP, heads the Global Forum on Migration and Development, which brings together representatives of 160 nations to share policy ideas.
He told the House of Lords committee migration was a "crucial dynamic for economic growth" in some EU nations "however difficult it may be to explain this to the citizens of those states".
SOME PEOPLE
think everything is about making money
Quote from: E.O.T. on June 25, 2012, 08:56:49 PM
Quote from: Lenin/McCarthy on June 24, 2012, 09:44:28 PM
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.
Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.
THAT'S FUNNY
i wandered around the site after reading that and found it interesting, but didn't notice the date!
IT'S LIKE
we have an instant back to the future opportunity. we're already a year later and we can see what happened!
I'VE
been to various parts of Holland several times, but not for about 8 years (kids don't take well to 14 hour flights, even with free booze). As an obviously white guy in appearance, i was intrigued to experience racism from other white people, which the Dutch seem to be brimming with. Most of the times being there, i was crashing with uber leftist liberal anarcho types (in a sweet as hell pad on the Herrengracht (sp?) ) so in vague ways i was insulated from perhaps the typical Dutch opinion.
HOWEVER,
it wasn't uncommon to have people make a derogatory "YANK" remark when my speech was overheard by others, especially walking around on the streets. i also found a fabulous disdain for all of their neighbors. kind of like how people from one US state make fun of their neighbor states i guess, but it was weird to me all the same. even outside of Amsterdam friends were all about hating on the germans and danish.
AT THE TIME,
i was also really aware that holland had some fairly tight immigration laws, which made sense. half the stoners in portland would be living on the dole, squatting all over that tiny holland town if it werent that way.
I DON'T
necessarily agree with nigel, because that's my job
I know a few people who go there every chance they get, and they don't hear a lot of fucked-up comments. They say the main thing people do there is try to overcharge you for things, assuming you don't know what they're supposed to cost. Or you might wait for a cab longer than a native would, things like that.
Of course they could be running in different circles or visiting different areas.
It still beats Texas. :x
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 25, 2012, 09:23:59 PM
Quote from: E.O.T. on June 25, 2012, 08:56:49 PM
Quote from: Lenin/McCarthy on June 24, 2012, 09:44:28 PM
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.
Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.
THAT'S FUNNY
i wandered around the site after reading that and found it interesting, but didn't notice the date!
IT'S LIKE
we have an instant back to the future opportunity. we're already a year later and we can see what happened!
I'VE
been to various parts of Holland several times, but not for about 8 years (kids don't take well to 14 hour flights, even with free booze). As an obviously white guy in appearance, i was intrigued to experience racism from other white people, which the Dutch seem to be brimming with. Most of the times being there, i was crashing with uber leftist liberal anarcho types (in a sweet as hell pad on the Herrengracht (sp?) ) so in vague ways i was insulated from perhaps the typical Dutch opinion.
HOWEVER,
it wasn't uncommon to have people make a derogatory "YANK" remark when my speech was overheard by others, especially walking around on the streets. i also found a fabulous disdain for all of their neighbors. kind of like how people from one US state make fun of their neighbor states i guess, but it was weird to me all the same. even outside of Amsterdam friends were all about hating on the germans and danish.
AT THE TIME,
i was also really aware that holland had some fairly tight immigration laws, which made sense. half the stoners in portland would be living on the dole, squatting all over that tiny holland town if it werent that way.
I DON'T
necessarily agree with nigel, because that's my job
I know a few people who go there every chance they get, and they don't hear a lot of fucked-up comments. They say the main thing people do there is try to overcharge you for things, assuming you don't know what they're supposed to cost. Or you might wait for a cab longer than a native would, things like that.
Of course they could be running in different circles or visiting different areas.
It still beats Texas. :x
I THOUGHT
nothing could beat texas?!
So are you talking about Amsterdam, or the whole of NL?
The Herengracht is a big street in Amsterdam (next to a canal, obviously).
Overcharging for things seems most likely to occur in tourist heavy areas like Amsterdam. Also general friendliness is different in different parts of the country: One time I overheard two Dutch girls (that were obviously not from around) walking in front of me, where to go, or what bus to take or something. I knew, so I told them. They told me they were from The Hague (IIRC) and were quite surprised at the random friendliness that would never happen were they lived (or so they said). A similar thing actually happened to us when we just arrived in NYC, we needed to get to Grand Central and take a train or something and out of the blue two middle-aged ladies helped us by pointing out where the entrance was and where to buy the tickets and such. They were from a different state. I don't think a (typical) New Yorker would have done that.
But Amsterdam is really weird. I'm Dutch and even I feel like I'm being treated as a tourist there, simply for not radiating that I know exactly where I am, where I'm going and where to have the best time. I don't like Amsterdam much.
As for disdain of our neighbouring countries, for starters, Denmark doesn't neighbour us :) Nor do I really understand why Dutch would dislike the Danish. Okay they kind of freak me out after staying in their country for a week or so (with their cute garden gnome type knobbly noses), but on the whole we really don't deal with them a lot, so I wonder why or how they even came up in conversation?
As for Germany, they invaded our country and took our bikes. And also defeated us in soccer a couple of times. Can you remember how long ago this was? Because I really have the idea that the (completley unfounded) negative opinions about Germany lessened quite a lot in the past decade or so. Or perhaps I just grew up and hung around with more tolerant people. But I also think the EU played a role. It's kinda nice being able to pay with the same currency. NL is not that big and you're over the border in no time. And they don't really hardly ever check your passport anymore. You can even just apply for a job in Germany and work from NL, or move there, or whatever, without any special permit. Apart from speaking a different language, having no speed limit on the Autobahn, having nicer roadside restaurant and a slightly different landscape due to different drainage technology, it's like that border hardly even exists.
Crashing with uber left anarcho punk types--squatters I'm assuming?--especially in Amsterdam, is most definitely going to get you a rather isolated and unique view of the Netherlands, though. Not that it matters much, I'm absolutely certain it would be a blast :)
Amsterdam, mostly. That's where everybody goes. They generally rent a decent apartment for a week for WAY less than a scabie-infested hotel room costs here.
I do know one guy who stayed in Den Bosch for a few days because he knows a guy who lets him crash there. He didn't report getting stiffed, though. He says the only shitty thing that happened to him was that he was walking at night and some jerk in an upper story window was trying to shine a laser in his eyes for lulz. He just put his hand up to the side of his head with his middle finger sticking up and kept walking. :lol:
EOT: Musicians excepted, nothing beats Texas for SHITTY. "Shitty" is key here.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 26, 2012, 01:17:57 AM
Amsterdam, mostly. That's where everybody goes. They generally rent a decent apartment for a week for WAY less than a scabie-infested hotel room costs here.
I do know one guy who stayed in Den Bosch for a few days because he knows a guy who lets him crash there. He didn't report getting stiffed, though. He says the only shitty thing that happened to him was that he was walking at night and some jerk in an upper story window was trying to shine a laser in his eyes for lulz. He just put his hand up to the side of his head with his middle finger sticking up and kept walking. :lol:
EOT: Musicians excepted, nothing beats Texas for SHITTY. "Shitty" is key here.
I was gonna argue small town AZ, but you're 169% right.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2012, 01:20:11 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 26, 2012, 01:17:57 AM
Amsterdam, mostly. That's where everybody goes. They generally rent a decent apartment for a week for WAY less than a scabie-infested hotel room costs here.
I do know one guy who stayed in Den Bosch for a few days because he knows a guy who lets him crash there. He didn't report getting stiffed, though. He says the only shitty thing that happened to him was that he was walking at night and some jerk in an upper story window was trying to shine a laser in his eyes for lulz. He just put his hand up to the side of his head with his middle finger sticking up and kept walking. :lol:
EOT: Musicians excepted, nothing beats Texas for SHITTY. "Shitty" is key here.
I was gonna argue small town AZ, but you're 169% right.
Yeah. Still boggled as to how Texas managed to pull THAT off.
In any place that attracts tourists, the locals are going to hate any non-native, even if they are just passing through to some more interesting place.
The example I'm most familiar with is Gatlinburg, TN. If they don't know you, they hate you by default.
I'M OK
with being treated like a "Yank" when there, no one had ever called me that before, it was funny. I was of course, derailed in my mind because in the states, being a "Yankee" more specifically means one is not from the southern states. so i was wondering how this guy pegged my dialect. which wasn't the case, he just meant american in general. being from wisconsin, it's a meaningless term to me, kinda like honky. still waiting for someone to throw that at me some day, so my life may be complete.
ONE R
in herengracht, gotcha. yes, staying there was awesome, incredible view of the streets and the anarchos had set up an internet cafe on the main floor.
HEY,
being a skip across the pond is association enough (re: denmark), we made fun of the michiganites and they were way across the biggest lake ever. i fully understand the german thing, of course, that seemed universal in travelling around.
I, FOR ONE
want the whole euro thing to go away cuz i like all the different crazy money, and having pockets full of strange coins. it's part of that romanticallism of europe. i'm not too in favour of the mcworld.
ALL THAT SAID,
i was a total nerd for islamic studies in school, specifically sufi thinkers like ibn sina or especially al ghazali, and i have to assume the dutch were clueless somehow, in thinking that in-faith muslims would be anything but totally themselves, residing there, or anywhere. it's a pickle, for sure
REGARDLESS
of the op, being essentially a dead topic, thanks for everyone's input. it's perhaps not a direct correlative to the immigration/ illegal entry issues in the us, but nonetheless socially imperative as a concern. i dislike the media's obsession with fanning the flames in regards to making it all about racism and hate. i think that's relevant, but dumbing it down to a point where the real complex issues of immigration and economics get tossed out the window because they don't fit on hot topic of the day is upsetting.
FOR EXAMPLE,
i'm pretty convinced that the staff of the oregonian and willamette weekly would like nothing more than weekly race riots, of every flavour, just for the sales, they do everything they can to insist on dividing and misrepresenting the reality of portland social relations.
I DO NOT
relish the individuals who's job it is to get knee deep in the burqua debate. individuals in politics are are largely mentally deranged imo, so they're probably the least qualified to decide for the greater good. people walking around in masks is more than a little weird, but if one is to respect another's personal beliefs, it's kinda all or nothing.
Beliefs are just things you make up to explain what you don't know when you're too lazy to find out the truth, and I for one don't respect ANYBODY'S personal beliefs.
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on June 26, 2012, 11:30:24 PM
Beliefs are just things you make up to explain what you don't know when you're too lazy to find out the truth, and I for one don't respect ANYBODY'S personal beliefs.
WELL
then...
Next time a Dutch calls you Yankee, inform them that it was in fact the Dutch (immigrants) that were called that name first, derived from the Dutch first name "Jan Kees" [pronounce it "Yun Case" or they may wonder wtf].
QuoteI, for one want the whole euro thing to go away cuz i like all the different crazy money, and having pockets full of strange coins. it's part of that romanticallism of europe. i'm not too in favour of the mcworld.
Yeah I can imagine how that must seem endearingly romantic and idyllic, if you don't actually live there and Euros, Deutschmarks and Guldens are all the same to you anyway: foreign moneys that you convert back to dollars in your head, anyway.
Now imagine that every US state uses a different currency. And that, unlike those big rectangular slabs on your West coast, they vary in size a lot more and there's quite a few more small ones close by, even more so than the New England area. Imagine that your home state is real tiny, like the Netherlands. And they all have different currency and they all take chunks of commission whenever you exchange currency, and you have this huge jar back at home you keep with various valuta coins whenever you get back, some of which are nearly worthless but you forgot which ones and for some reason you always forget to take the proper ones with you when you go anywhere, valuta exchange offices generally only take paper money, so you end up just donating them all to some charity or other.
Now imagine you cannot cross any state line without showing your passport (real, official passport, not some ID card or a driver's license) to some really strict fellow that does not speak your language and wears an army uniform that doesn't look at all like the friendly army uniforms you're familiar with back at home. BTW he's shouting something at you and you have no idea what he wants. Not to mention, naturally you cannot apply for a job in a different state without going through a huge amount of paperwork.
... ;-)
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 27, 2012, 02:08:31 AM
Next time a Dutch calls you Yankee, inform them that it was in fact the Dutch (immigrants) that were called that name first, derived from the Dutch first name "Jan Kees" [pronounce it "Yun Case" or they may wonder wtf].
QuoteI, for one want the whole euro thing to go away cuz i like all the different crazy money, and having pockets full of strange coins. it's part of that romanticallism of europe. i'm not too in favour of the mcworld.
Yeah I can imagine how that must seem endearingly romantic and idyllic, if you don't actually live there and Euros, Deutschmarks and Guldens are all the same to you anyway: foreign moneys that you convert back to dollars in your head, anyway.
Now imagine that every US state uses a different currency. And that, unlike those big rectangular slabs on your West coast, they vary in size a lot more and there's quite a few more small ones close by, even more so than the New England area. Imagine that your home state is real tiny, like the Netherlands. And they all have different currency and they all take chunks of commission whenever you exchange currency, and you have this huge jar back at home you keep with various valuta coins whenever you get back, some of which are nearly worthless but you forgot which ones and for some reason you always forget to take the proper ones with you when you go anywhere, valuta exchange offices generally only take paper money, so you end up just donating them all to some charity or other.
Now imagine you cannot cross any state line without showing your passport (real, official passport, not some ID card or a driver's license) to some really strict fellow that does not speak your language and wears an army uniform that doesn't look at all like the friendly army uniforms you're familiar with back at home. BTW he's shouting something at you and you have no idea what he wants. Not to mention, naturally you cannot apply for a job in a different state without going through a huge amount of paperwork.
... ;-)
HAHA
i absolutely hear what you're saying. but romanticallism has nothing to do with practicality. going to the next state over looking for a job, here in the u.s. would be as practical as you driving to eastern europe to look for work! here in portland, if i can't walk there, i'm not interested!! being made fun of by locals cuz i'm too drunk to know what coins i'm supposed to use is part of the fun of traveling.
I WILL NEVER FORGET
my first drive into holland, coming from germany. we dialed into radio to get into the groove and dutch airwaves hit me with one of my favourite Skriabin pieces followed by a half hour of indian composition. i was floored. and wasted. cuz we could drink in the car! yeah!!
20120702 Navy 3:48:33 AM 3&1/3 min online delay
in the pic
||||||| {most likely in a fade:
http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/ {{ an eXtended series of trying to DO IT
Quote from: hirley0 on July 02, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
20120702 Navy 3:48:33 AM 3&1/3 min online delay
:fnord: From whence I came (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31768.msg1187037.html#msg1187037) >>> to WHERE? iz headed :fnord: (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31650.0.html)
Funny enough before the constitution every state did have its own currency. It was a mess and that was before ease of travel. It drove foreign powers nuts too- are we dealing with one country or thirteen countries separately?
This is the form of government teabaggers think the constitution is. And to a bostonian yankees are those bastards on that team from new amsterdam.
THIS AINT THE PLAN i plan to follow
<div id="bl6" class="no_class" style="clear:both;">
<h1 style="margin-bottom:0px;">
Click on a building in the map below to view building details and maps
</h1>
<img src="map.gif" style="border-bottom:0px;margin:0px;" usemap="#campus" />
<map name="campus">
<area shape="rect" coords="556,355,612,384" href="detail2.php?buildingID=64" />
<area shape="polygon" coords="630,629,663,624,676,686,649,693" href="detail2.php?buildingID=1" />
<area shape="rect" coords="0,155,70,213" href="detail2.php?buildingID=16" />
it was MenT to get me thinking {not EAsy
Quote from: Bruce Twiddleton on July 05, 2012, 08:35:45 PM
Funny enough before the constitution every state did have its own currency. It was a mess and that was before ease of travel. It drove foreign powers nuts too- are we dealing with one country or thirteen countries separately?
This is the form of government teabaggers think the constitution is. And to a bostonian yankees are those bastards on that team from new amsterdam.
Yeah, and the teabaggers aren't really big on history (DUH), and don't realize that the REASON we went to the constitution from the articles of confederation is that the articles DIDN'T WORK. Hell, things were so bad that there was a pretty strong monarchist movement for a little while.
I also find their use of the thirteen star flag funny because that means they have a 37/50 chance of unintentional describing themselves as unamerican.
Sorry if there is a delay my train just went underground.
Oh yeah. I think it even got to the point where some european prince was invited to be king where he politely declined saying that we didnt seem to do so well with the previous one.
/ Warning you we \
although it is not my inTENT to use Les Than <
it is my intent to cLICK on one spot to get to the next 1
oMore like
[ ] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/)[ ] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/detail2.php?buildingID=16)
Actually its more like little boxes in big boxes
Rather than one behind the other ?
EveN if i do NOT know what .T means time, tale, talk
Quote from: Bruce Twiddleton on July 05, 2012, 08:48:13 PM
I also find their use of the thirteen star flag funny because that means they have a 37/50 chance of unintentional describing themselves as unamerican.
Kissinger killed irony, but teabaggers brought it back.
Quote from: hirley0 on July 05, 2012, 08:52:16 PM
although it is not my inTENT to use Les Than <
it is my intent to cLICK on one spot to get to the next 1
\ Warning you we /
oMore like
[ [ ]] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/)[ □] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/detail2.php?buildingID=16) □ (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/docs/HGCD_f1306345488.pdf)
Actually its more like little boxes in big boxes
Rather than one behind the other ?
EveN if i do NOT know what .T means Time, Talk, Tail.
^ at 05:39:19 AM ^
(http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_26101659.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_26101659.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_t70bhg105151.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_t70bhg105151.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_cheer2105272.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_cheer2105272.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/0404nx1105152.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/0404nx1105152.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_29uvlvr105154.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_29uvlvr105154.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_laura-c2105519.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_laura-c2105519.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_arna105689.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_arna105689.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_2a0cdna105956.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_2a0cdna105956.jpg)
(http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/3rd4th12105957.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/3rd4th12105957.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_1-4x5106078.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_1-4x5106078.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_2-4x5106079.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_2-4x5106079.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_3-4x5106080.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_3-4x5106080.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_4-4x5106081.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_4-4x5106081.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_5-4x4106082.jpg) (http://media.turnofspeed.com/media/hub/main_5-4x4106082.jpg)
Quote from: hirley0 on July 05, 2012, 08:52:16 PM
/ Warning you we \
although it is not my inTENT to use Les Than <
it is my intent to cLICK on one spot to get to the next 1
oMore like
[ ] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/)[ ] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/detail2.php?buildingID=16)
Actually its more like little boxes in big boxes
Rather than one behind the other ?
EveN if i do NOT know what .T means time, tale, talk
Yep. N0P nails it yet again.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on July 07, 2012, 07:54:28 AM
Quote from: hirley0 on July 05, 2012, 08:52:16 PM
oMore like [ [ ]] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/) [ □] (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/detail2.php?buildingID=16) □ (http://www.fap.pdx.edu/floorplans/docs/HGCD_f1306345488.pdf)
Yep. N0P nails it yet again.
Long time no C | summer term ?
usemap="#campus" />
<map name="campus">
<area shape="rect" coords="55
Pretty sure iz stuck at 55 | till next time
Yeah I didn't reply because you're being completely off-topic in this thread :)
However:
(http://i.imgur.com/6w30J.png)
Anything in particular you need to know about them?
You're trying to get them nested?
Are you trying to WRITE html code with image maps for those floor plans, or
are you trying to READ the html code of those floor plans that happen to contain image maps?
One advice I can give if you're trying to WRITE html code with image maps is, don't do it by hand, nobody does it by hand, it's usually done in PhotoShop or something similar, they take a big image and slice it up into smaller (rectangular) patches, and then PhotoShop generates the correct HTML code with all the coordinates and such.
(If you don't have PhotoShop, which is a commercial program, there's also free tools out there that can do it, maybe GIMP does, I've never tried TBH)
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 07, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
Yeah I
& i got LiB BooK 006.686P366b {GIMP), 006.686 A239 {psE6)
006.686C7441g{?WEB), 006.686a2391 ABOUT 5 POUNDS
THE ps books have CD's so will cheek it NOW?
2391
2012 03/22 18:16 8,918,339 market.psd
2012 02/23 17:16 1,858,553 woman.psd
Total Files Listed: 56 File(s) 181,122,504 bytes
239
Directory of E:\Lessons\Lesson11
2007 09/17 05:51 7,614,592 11_01.ORF
2007 09/17 05:52 1,142,291 11_02.psd
2007 09/17 05:54 1,171,606 11_03.psd
Total Files Listed:102 File(s) 120,991,014 bytes
CD, which should help you locate the files you need.
YEAH any photoshop use'Rs on PD ?
Now bac2 4AM the Answer in 1/2 Hr will be"GRIM" ask Particle
THE end of the week Moving on >
A very good nights sleep
Rest up for 5-?? Trip to East Side & back2
REBOOT try2REMember psWord's
the books {all 4| GO back today PLanns canceled {Maybe
Are you trying to WRITE html code { maybe: in Astrology
although i do not use ?an? HTML editor {{ maybe iv 1 {{{ donno
are you trying to READ the html code { probably not
i read the source just to think that way for a mili second
what i do try to do is in 10 years or so
take a photo of the South wall of CH41 {psu anthro Lab
||||| {wall with doors that open = { shelves [] {boxes
ON the shelves !{ bone in box about 5 levels
} |d|s|box|bn|#5th }} it may be reasonable to use Lists
Rather than try to USe photo ") patches, "
}}} i have no idea /\/\/\/\ i take it back iv 1
ttp://swcenter.fortlewis.edu/site_index.shtml
http://swcenter.fortlewis.edu/inventory/PostcardsInv.htm {this 1
http://swcenter.fortlewis.edu/images/M194/M1943001.htm
9AM pdT in 10 min there is nothing to add, at this time.
09:01 2012 07/15 09:01 2012 07/15 Dream {LU}ANA
there were 4 objects in a Line (<N) O O /'\ O (S>)
the 3rd object appeared to be an Orange & Black
"calico candel" with a central wick | flat top
FLAT bottom
the tASK SEAMED to be to determine the content
the source of the color pigment |for example
Cadimum yellow ? Charcole black
although these ideas were not preent in the dream
a brown skin person tall thin (Spock Like}
came forward from a room to the south
he was ask if it were possible to determin the
content {constiuents) his answer YES
by means of REASONANCE | END OF DREAM |
THIS IS THE SECOND viewing of this dream
i rarley remember dreams | so i seams
realeent | Why reasonance | ? NMRI ? Back to U2's
v I5's & 4O's ?| Just Joking | tWATT | says: