Craniosacral therapy - woo?

[Dildo Argentino]

Sign me up, Mr. Junkenstein!! 

Need you bank account details, Sort code and you have to move to the commune that you'll be buying and signing over to me.


It's the deal of a lifetime.

I don't got no bank account, Mister!! Them give you cancer! AND hives!

[Junkenstein]

Don't worry, I can use Facial-craniocontact therapy to cure you of all ills.

The ancient art of the backhander has been passed down through 16 generations.

[LMNO]

Dodo, here's some stuff.

First the entire Sequence:
http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Mysterious_Answers_to_Mysterious_Questions

Then, two relevant articles.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/

[Dildo Argentino]

Dodo, here's some stuff.

First the entire Sequence:
http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Mysterious_Answers_to_Mysterious_Questions

Then, two relevant articles.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/

Thanks very much. I did find my way to lesswrong before, but it was dauntingly large. I'll start with these ones.

[Doktor Howl]

Anyway, 3 pages about slapping people in the head to fix their woes. That's depressing.

In my day, we just DID it.



In any case, this is just another steaming pile of woo, with all of us lined up to taste it to be sure it's bullshit.  It's really simple; if Holist proposes it, it's bullshit and he will argue til he's blue in the face that THIS TIME, it's not bullshit.  And if we all crowd around to make sure he knows that it is in fact bullshit, then we've all just taken a big bite.

This "craniosacral therapy" brought to you by the letters B and S.

[LMNO]

BUT ROGER!  THERE WERE STUDIES THAT SHOW A SLIGHT POSITIVE EFFECT THAT WASN'T ACTUALLY CAUSED BY THE PROPOSED MECHANISM THAT WAS BEING RESEARCHED!



Sorry, snarky.


Anyway, Holist, Dodo, whatever: 

It's pretty clear that if craniosacral massage has an effect, it's not via the claimed mechanism.

Yes, I agree with that.

Here's the thing: The entire point of science* is to have an idea about how the universe works, find a way to test that idea, and then look at the result.  If the results say your idea doesn't work, then you go back to the drawing board and come up with another idea.

The test was if a form of scalp massage can substantially affect the flow of cerebrospinal fluid in a person's body. 
The results of the test, which you agree with in the above quote shows that whatever cerebrospinal fluid movement occurred (which you also agree was minimal), it was not because of the scalp massage.

So now you have to go back and figure out, if not scalp massage, what was the cause of the movement?

What you don't do is sit back and claim that because there was a mild effect, Craniosacral therapy has not been disproven.








*Hyperbole.  There are other points.

[Doktor Howl]

You're wasting your breath.  Holist is a man out searching for the woo, because he needs woo.  Not sure why.  Maybe he feels that he's being "left out" of science and wants to be in the know without doing the work required to understand how the world works.  That is why, after all, Pagans and other new-agers constantly go on about how long they've been in the biz...There are no actual credentials, because it's all bullshit.  So you claim years or decades of study of something that isn't real, and then pontificate about it to whomever is dumb enough to want to be a disciple.

I think this is odd, because while I have some education in the sciences (physics, mostly), I am not a scientist and I am happy to let scientists do science.  I usually gain some benefit from it.  I will gain less of it as time goes on, because of irrational people clogging up the system with woo that - while useless and counterproductive - is easier to "understand" than actual medicine or science.

These people have never heard "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and they won't listen if you tell them.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

My girlfriend learned cranial "sacral" massage while in accredited massage school in Oregon. No woo attached. No "guessing" why it "worked".

Simply "here are the techniques to safely massage the skull muscles" and "oh, btw the skull bones aren't 'static' like the impression you got every skeleton model you've seen, they're all gently joined by cartilage, etc, and get out of position sometimes, so be careful of how you deal with that".

Firstly, it seems craniosacral therapy and cranial osteopathy are distinct but related things, while cranial massage is something rather different.

Secondly (from an article previously linked by LMNO): "After having outlined the theories of cranial osteopathy (SUTHERLAND, KARNI, UPLEDGER, and, more recently, CLAUZADE and DARRAILLANS), the authors refute the latter point by point. "Primary respiration" is in fact a way of thinking, and the various bones making up the calvaria and base of the skull, which are solidly synostosed in the adult, are clearly incapable of the pretended rhythmic displacements "described" by the osteopaths. "

It seems your girlfriend was taught something that's quite contrary to the scientific concensus.

Yeah, but what do MDs and anatomists know? They're just like, tools of the system regurgitating the line they've been fed. Massage therapists are on the frontlines, working with patients hands-on, so they'd be in a better position to know what's really going on.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Okay, that's fine. I don't want to argue, I'm interested in whether it has an effect, and if yes, why. I would also be grateful if someone with access could link to the single well-designed study so I could look at it.

I linked you to a pile of studies on the NIH website. Is that not good enough? Do you not have Google Scholar where you live? Do you need someone to do all the legwork and spoonfeed the papers to you?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Have you considered going to a library?

[Dildo Argentino]

Okay, that's fine. I don't want to argue, I'm interested in whether it has an effect, and if yes, why. I would also be grateful if someone with access could link to the single well-designed study so I could look at it.

I linked you to a pile of studies on the NIH website. Is that not good enough? Do you not have Google Scholar where you live? Do you need someone to do all the legwork and spoonfeed the papers to you?

No, thank you. You are right. I will look at those studies you linked to. (The first one says it needs more research, the second one says it is an effective treatment for migraine. The third one says "it is not medicine" - and the abstract page is totally blank, but I'll find it, it says free full text, so it must be up somewhere) I'll be back later.

[Dildo Argentino]

Have you considered going to a library?

Not really an option. Do have internets though, will work harder before bothering you again.

[Dildo Argentino]

What you don't do is sit back and claim that because there was a mild effect, Craniosacral therapy has not been disproven.

I agree with that, too. Firstly, I would like to see and understand the evidence that disproves the theory behind craniosacral therapy. This may be a tall order for me, but I am taking it as a test case, a study case.

Secondly, I would like to see how much evidence there is that the treatment (the ritual) is effective beyond placebo. (My personal experience suggest that it is, but such is the nature of placebo, especially for gullible hippies like me.) If it seems there is something of an effect, I would like to think about other possible underlying mechanisms. I think being touched by a calm individual in relaxed circumstances in itself is pretty damn therapeutic in certain conditions... so that could be it. Back later.

As to the point, entire or otherwise, of science, I think I would like to defer that can of worms.

[LMNO]

Um.  You already agreed that the mechanism as hypothesized doesn't work.  The evidence is in the studies.  The study shows minimal movement of cranio spinal fluid, but evidence that the theory behind why scalp massage would do this was not found.

Remember, you agreed to that conclusion.

[Dildo Argentino]

You're wasting your breath.  Holist is a man out searching for the woo, because he needs woo.  Not sure why.  Maybe he feels that he's being "left out" of science and wants to be in the know without doing the work required to understand how the world works.  That is why, after all, Pagans and other new-agers constantly go on about how long they've been in the biz...There are no actual credentials, because it's all bullshit.  So you claim years or decades of study of something that isn't real, and then pontificate about it to whomever is dumb enough to want to be a disciple.

I think this is odd, because while I have some education in the sciences (physics, mostly), I am not a scientist and I am happy to let scientists do science.  I usually gain some benefit from it.  I will gain less of it as time goes on, because of irrational people clogging up the system with woo that - while useless and counterproductive - is easier to "understand" than actual medicine or science.

These people have never heard "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and they won't listen if you tell them.

No, they are not wasting their breath this time. And I think I only ever pulled the "it's different this time" stunt right at the beginning, with homeopathy. The other things you grew to hate me for were quite different, remember?