Yet another healthcare topic

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I was having a conversation about abortion the other day and I pointed out that supporting universal health care would almost certainly be the best way to reduce abortion, as well as millions of needless deaths of people who are already born.

No one could disagree with me, so the conversation ended.

[hooplala]

So, if this has been covered already, I'm sorry and I'll hang my head in shame.


What are the arguments against treating healthcare as a public utility?  Other than the "socialist" thing, of course.

Guy 1:  Hey, don't you know that smoking is bad for you?

Guy 2:  I've heard about it.  I don't care.

Guy 1:  Yeah, well you're hurting other people with your smoke.

Guy 2:  Dude, I'm outside, nobody is being hurt by my smoke.

Guy 1:  Yeah?  Well, I'll be paying for your medical bills someday, and I don't want to pay for that bullshit.


Theft is theft, even if its for the greater good.  And taking someone's money against their will is, by definition, theft.  One evil doesn't not cancel out another evil.

1+1 does not equal zero.

[Jenne]

What kills me, seriously REALLY gets my gourd, is that there's sooo much misinformation that is sooo easily regurgitated and used as home truths. I blame the "Folksiness" that politicians have to adopt in order to seem down-home and honest/believable.  Obama does this too when he's stumping.  Dropping the g's on -ing endings, etc.

So this health care reform could have saved us, could have brought us into the black, eventually.  But, my gawd, instead, there's this whole gestalt that is almost impenetrable.  Perpetuated by Michael Medved, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, etc. and their audiences.  And they do it FOR RATINGS.  Not to spread honesty and good conditions as a result, but for PURE, SHEER RATINGS.

And the people, they don't care.  They don't get it.  They're happy having their ire stirred, because THEIR guy STANK ASS.  He killed their dreams and sent their boys to war.  And then did shit-all to help them out of their credit messes.

But instead of copping to that, they grab the irestick and stir, stir, stir.  It's so much easier than investigating for yourself, or talking to your OWN local/state politician (FACT: most people think their dude in Wash, DC's ok, but HATE HATE HATE his colleagues-in-power...go figure).  No, instead, let's turn on Fox Friends and listen to Gretchen-my-white-ass-knows-nothin'-but-showbiz-and-beauty-queening bloviate about her flatulent ignorance.  Because Bob knows Gretchen's the bees knees on expertise on EVERYFUCKINGTHING American!

...ADD TO THAT

...ADD TO THAT

MOTHERFUCKER

...ADD. To.  THAT--We alllllllllllllllllllllllllllll know someone who's lost their home, lost their job, has no insurance, dying from cancer and can't pay, was in the hospital for an accident/heart thing/has to pay $$$ for drugs

AND CAN'T FUCKING AFFORD IT!

So why?  WHY WHY WHY does providing health care, for our fucking FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, sound like such a horrible, terrible, no-good idea?

WHY?

WHY?

FUCK the red states, FUCK the blue states that are really red under their blue clothing, and FUCK the people in Washington.  FUCK this whole country.

In the ear.

Forever.

Amen.

[Iason Ouabache]

Since I'm a glutton for punishment: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225142622AAzsLML

Notice the Ronpaulbot that says "Corporate health care fails therefore the government sucks." 

[Remington]

Since I'm a glutton for punishment: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225142622AAzsLML

Notice the Ronpaulbot that says "Corporate health care fails therefore the government sucks."  

Yahoo Answers? 

You might as well as the people who post in Youtube comments.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, if this has been covered already, I'm sorry and I'll hang my head in shame.


What are the arguments against treating healthcare as a public utility?  Other than the "socialist" thing, of course.

Guy 1:  Hey, don't you know that smoking is bad for you?

Guy 2:  I've heard about it.  I don't care.

Guy 1:  Yeah, well you're hurting other people with your smoke.

Guy 2:  Dude, I'm outside, nobody is being hurt by my smoke.

Guy 1:  Yeah?  Well, I'll be paying for your medical bills someday, and I don't want to pay for that bullshit.


Theft is theft, even if its for the greater good.  And taking someone's money against their will is, by definition, theft.  One evil doesn't not cancel out another evil.

1+1 does not equal zero.

Are you opposed to taxation and public works in general?

Because I am irritated with how the Parks Department uses their funding, yet because it was acquired through majority vote I have no choice but to give money to them, however unwilling I may be.

[hooplala]

So, if this has been covered already, I'm sorry and I'll hang my head in shame.


What are the arguments against treating healthcare as a public utility?  Other than the "socialist" thing, of course.

Guy 1:  Hey, don't you know that smoking is bad for you?

Guy 2:  I've heard about it.  I don't care.

Guy 1:  Yeah, well you're hurting other people with your smoke.

Guy 2:  Dude, I'm outside, nobody is being hurt by my smoke.

Guy 1:  Yeah?  Well, I'll be paying for your medical bills someday, and I don't want to pay for that bullshit.


Theft is theft, even if its for the greater good.  And taking someone's money against their will is, by definition, theft.  One evil doesn't not cancel out another evil.

1+1 does not equal zero.

Are you opposed to taxation and public works in general?

Because I am irritated with how the Parks Department uses their funding, yet because it was acquired through majority vote I have no choice but to give money to them, however unwilling I may be.

I am opposed to mandatory taxation, but think that things like roads and whatnot need taxation to exist, so my nutty solution would be voluntary taxation for the things people want, and the things people didn't want, wouldn't happen. 

I know to a lot of people this makes me sound like a baby-eating monster, but I don't think I am... I just don't think mandatory tax is anything other than theft, and therefor not right.

And, even more nutty, I believe that most people are essentially good and would volunteer to pay for things that are important, including healthcare... it just wouldn't be through the government.

[Rumckle]

Democracy is kind of already like that (in theory), mandatory taxation (and if people are intelligent to realise that some things need taxation, people would voluntarily pay tax (maybe) anyway) that gets spent on things that people want, and things that people don't want doesn't happen (in theory).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The problem with that Utopian dream of voluntary taxation is that I think almost no one will want to pay the taxes, but almost everyone will want to use the services.

I do think that property tax is theft; to be forced to eternally pay taxes on property you have already purchased seems absurd. I think that, at most, there should be a sales tax, and even that should be pretty marginal. I pay nearly $3k/year in property tax, and from what I understand that's not even all that high compared to other states.

Income tax, on the other hand, and fee-for-service type taxes, I don't have a problem with. Taxing gas to pay for roads, for instance; brilliant and obvious. But I don't see a way to do that with parks or sidewalks.

Maybe taxpayers should be able to check boxes for what they want their money used for, but the obvious problem with that is that it would vary wildly from year to year depending on the issue du jour, giving some programs gross surpluses some years and absolutely gutting them on others.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh, and my property taxes go toward paying for schools and services that the renters in my neighborhood, however much more they earn than I do, use but don't have to pay for.

And then there's the absurdity of self-employment tax, made doubly absurd because if you're self-employed you don't have the option of drawing unemployment if your business tanks.

[BabylonHoruv]

Oh, and my property taxes go toward paying for schools and services that the renters in my neighborhood, however much more they earn than I do, use but don't have to pay for.

And then there's the absurdity of self-employment tax, made doubly absurd because if you're self-employed you don't have the option of drawing unemployment if your business tanks.

If the property owners who are renting to the renters don't pass the property taxes down as part of the rent then they are fools.

[Iason Ouabache]

There is no way in hell anyone would be stupid enough to pay voluntary taxes. People aren't wired that way. Most people don't work for rational long term goals. They'll take the short term gain (not paying any taxes) over long term goods (public works) while expecting everyone else to pick up the slack.

Personally, I see taxes as an entry fee to being a member of civilized society. Taxes pay for the infrastructure we need for basic survival. We need roads, water treatment/sewage, health care, power grids, etc. or society collapses very quickly. If you enjoy the fruits of this society then you share a burden of the cost for keeping it going. If you do not wish to be a part of society then you should be allowed to go off the grid or move to a different society.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

If taxes were theft, you wouldn't have roads, water treatment, health care, etc.

Maybe theft works differently in Canada.

Do thieves there mug you and then give you their leather jacket? Or steal your car but paint your house?
Break in, do your dishes, mop the floor, take out your garbage, clean the toilet, stock your fridge, but steal your TV?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh, and my property taxes go toward paying for schools and services that the renters in my neighborhood, however much more they earn than I do, use but don't have to pay for.

And then there's the absurdity of self-employment tax, made doubly absurd because if you're self-employed you don't have the option of drawing unemployment if your business tanks.

If the property owners who are renting to the renters don't pass the property taxes down as part of the rent then they are fools.

Of course they are; however, there again there is a huge disparity because for being a landlord to be profitable, the rent must be higher than the payment on the house. Property taxes are often "frozen" until a house changes hands or is remodeled, so property owners who bought a house ten years ago might only be paying $800/year in taxes on a house that is of the same market value as mine.

The way property taxes are structured here is simply stupid.

[Requia ☣]

wrong topic