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So, we need a definition of beauty.

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, October 21, 2012, 08:06:21 PM

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Faust

Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:35:06 AM
Of course, sometimes it IS important in a conversation to stop and clarify definitions, especially when a point hinges on a definition that may be unclear. But when adequate context is provided and the point doesn't really hinge on semantic fine points, it's just a diversionary tactic... Perhaps because the topic itself is Uncomfortable? I don't know.

I can assure you my posts werent a diversionary tactic, but I don't believe the word beauty means to you what it means to me. I agree with pretty and fuckableness being exactly what you are describing. There are really awful social connections and expectations associated with that.

The word beauty doesn't even carry the pretty context over here anyway the word is too antiquated for people to use, they will always go for something like hot or gorgeous or so on to describe those physical characteristics.

And Stella et all I was never talking about about inner beauty. What I am describing is still what other people see, it's just not what makes a person pretty.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Faust

Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:29:46 AM
To kiss
A type of electronics thingie

Cause kissing and electronics are inextricably linked like beauty and appearance  :roll:
Sleepless nights at the chateau

LMNO

When best intentions are meant, I think "beautiful on the inside" means "not fuckable, but someone I like to hang around."

When being polite, I think it means "not fuckable, but you shouldn't feel bad about that."

And isn't that the direction Nigel was heading?

If not, I need to go back and re-read her posts.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 24, 2012, 12:14:56 PM
When best intentions are meant, I think "beautiful on the inside" means "not fuckable, but someone I like to hang around."

When being polite, I think it means "not fuckable, but you shouldn't feel bad about that."

And isn't that the direction Nigel was heading?

If not, I need to go back and re-read her posts.

That's what I got out of it.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Q. G. Pennyworth

Part of the kneejerk reaction here I think may be related to the non-physical use of the word "ugly" too. If someone is racist, homophobic, or otherwise an asshole, it's not uncommon for them to be described as having "an ugly side" or "ugly thoughts." That has no bearing on whether they're physically attractive one way or the other, but it adds a much more unpleasant level of nuance to the word "ugly." Context of course counts for a lot, but ugly and beautiful have both picked up some of those secondary meanings even in every day use. It should not be awful to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" to describe the one unattractive blond girl in accounting, but it absolutely is. That's why it's so common for people to try to soften the blow by complimenting some other aspect of their personality immediately if they ever so much as call someone "unattractive." Ugly is something that is wrong with a person and should be fixed so the rest of us don't have to put up with it, and I think that's part of the problem. You can work on fixing ugly thoughts, and you should, but no one should feel like they have to "fix" ugly physical traits or overcompensate for them.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:35:06 AM
Of course, sometimes it IS important in a conversation to stop and clarify definitions, especially when a point hinges on a definition that may be unclear. But when adequate context is provided and the point doesn't really hinge on semantic fine points, it's just a diversionary tactic... Perhaps because the topic itself is Uncomfortable? I don't know.

"Challenged by a strong argument."
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 24, 2012, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:35:06 AM
Of course, sometimes it IS important in a conversation to stop and clarify definitions, especially when a point hinges on a definition that may be unclear. But when adequate context is provided and the point doesn't really hinge on semantic fine points, it's just a diversionary tactic... Perhaps because the topic itself is Uncomfortable? I don't know.

"Challenged by a strong argument."

:lulz: Yep.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#97
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on October 24, 2012, 02:14:15 PM
Part of the kneejerk reaction here I think may be related to the non-physical use of the word "ugly" too. If someone is racist, homophobic, or otherwise an asshole, it's not uncommon for them to be described as having "an ugly side" or "ugly thoughts." That has no bearing on whether they're physically attractive one way or the other, but it adds a much more unpleasant level of nuance to the word "ugly." Context of course counts for a lot, but ugly and beautiful have both picked up some of those secondary meanings even in every day use. It should not be awful to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" to describe the one unattractive blond girl in accounting, but it absolutely is. That's why it's so common for people to try to soften the blow by complimenting some other aspect of their personality immediately if they ever so much as call someone "unattractive." Ugly is something that is wrong with a person and should be fixed so the rest of us don't have to put up with it, and I think that's part of the problem. You can work on fixing ugly thoughts, and you should, but no one should feel like they have to "fix" ugly physical traits or overcompensate for them.

No one really ever needs to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" OR "the pretty blond girl in accounting". Neither are appropriate in a work setting. As for the rest of your point, context. The fact that there are other meanings for the word is STILL beside the point. I do see your point about "fixing" ugly personality traits, but this is where I point out that I've had more than a few people tell me that my directness and willingness to put together a cogent argument and pick apart bad arguments are "ugly" personality traits. They're unladylike and Not Nice At All.

Fuck 'em.  :)
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Faust on October 24, 2012, 07:53:18 AM
Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:29:46 AM
To kiss
A type of electronics thingie

Cause kissing and electronics are inextricably linked like beauty and appearance  :roll:

I think you are completely missing the point about words being given meaning with context. That's why we went on that tangent about the word "bus".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Don Coyote

Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:30:09 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on October 24, 2012, 02:14:15 PM
Part of the kneejerk reaction here I think may be related to the non-physical use of the word "ugly" too. If someone is racist, homophobic, or otherwise an asshole, it's not uncommon for them to be described as having "an ugly side" or "ugly thoughts." That has no bearing on whether they're physically attractive one way or the other, but it adds a much more unpleasant level of nuance to the word "ugly." Context of course counts for a lot, but ugly and beautiful have both picked up some of those secondary meanings even in every day use. It should not be awful to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" to describe the one unattractive blond girl in accounting, but it absolutely is. That's why it's so common for people to try to soften the blow by complimenting some other aspect of their personality immediately if they ever so much as call someone "unattractive." Ugly is something that is wrong with a person and should be fixed so the rest of us don't have to put up with it, and I think that's part of the problem. You can work on fixing ugly thoughts, and you should, but no one should feel like they have to "fix" ugly physical traits or overcompensate for them.

No one really ever needs to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" OR "the pretty blond girl in accounting". Neither are appropriate in a work setting. As for the rest of your point, context. The fact that there are other meanings for the word is STILL beside the point. I do see your point about "fixing" ugly personality traits, but this is where I point out that I've had more than a few people tell me that my directness and willingness to put together a cogent argument and pick apart bad arguments are "ugly" personality traits. They're unladylike and Not Nice At All.

Fuck 'em.  :)

The last person to tell Nigel she was beautiful on the inside had his insides on the outsides so everyone could see how beautiful he was.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 24, 2012, 12:14:56 PM
When best intentions are meant, I think "beautiful on the inside" means "not fuckable, but someone I like to hang around."

When being polite, I think it means "not fuckable, but you shouldn't feel bad about that."

And isn't that the direction Nigel was heading?

If not, I need to go back and re-read her posts.

Basically.

And when it comes down to it, people who aren't beautiful on the outside find love, get laid, and have babies too, at quite an astonishing rate.

Basically, what I'm saying is fuck beauty-as-a-value-judgement. You're not "beautiful on the inside, where it counts" you're just a good person, and that's even better, without dragging in associated terms that still have connotations of aesthetic appearance as part of a value system.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: American Jackal on October 24, 2012, 04:36:29 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 24, 2012, 04:30:09 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on October 24, 2012, 02:14:15 PM
Part of the kneejerk reaction here I think may be related to the non-physical use of the word "ugly" too. If someone is racist, homophobic, or otherwise an asshole, it's not uncommon for them to be described as having "an ugly side" or "ugly thoughts." That has no bearing on whether they're physically attractive one way or the other, but it adds a much more unpleasant level of nuance to the word "ugly." Context of course counts for a lot, but ugly and beautiful have both picked up some of those secondary meanings even in every day use. It should not be awful to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" to describe the one unattractive blond girl in accounting, but it absolutely is. That's why it's so common for people to try to soften the blow by complimenting some other aspect of their personality immediately if they ever so much as call someone "unattractive." Ugly is something that is wrong with a person and should be fixed so the rest of us don't have to put up with it, and I think that's part of the problem. You can work on fixing ugly thoughts, and you should, but no one should feel like they have to "fix" ugly physical traits or overcompensate for them.

No one really ever needs to say "the ugly blond girl in accounting" OR "the pretty blond girl in accounting". Neither are appropriate in a work setting. As for the rest of your point, context. The fact that there are other meanings for the word is STILL beside the point. I do see your point about "fixing" ugly personality traits, but this is where I point out that I've had more than a few people tell me that my directness and willingness to put together a cogent argument and pick apart bad arguments are "ugly" personality traits. They're unladylike and Not Nice At All.

Fuck 'em.  :)

The last person to tell Nigel she was beautiful on the inside had his insides on the outsides so everyone could see how beautiful he was.

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Elder Iptuous

are you saying that beauty should not be a value judgement at all, or just that it's too heavily weighted?

Does this also extend to other virtues?  specifically thinking about intelligence.
"god, he's dumb"
"yeah, but he's got street-smarts/common sense" or "yeah, but he's really nice"

Anna Mae Bollocks

I see a kind of scale in the way the word is commonly used:

Attractive: "I'd hit it." Could be for whatever reasons, which might or might not have to do with physical appearance.

Pretty: Somewhat good-looking but not beautiful.

Beautiful: "I think this person makes most other people look like a bucket of shit."

:x
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Juana

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on October 24, 2012, 07:08:48 PM
are you saying that beauty should not be a value judgement at all, or just that it's too heavily weighted?

Does this also extend to other virtues?  specifically thinking about intelligence.
"god, he's dumb"
"yeah, but he's got street-smarts/common sense" or "yeah, but he's really nice"
I think she's saying it should not be the ultimate value judgement, which "everyone is beautiful" makes it.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."