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So you fucking think fry cooks don't deserve a higher minimum wage?

Started by Don Coyote, June 16, 2015, 05:52:22 PM

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Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage

Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Reginald Ret

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage
That is because it is completely retarded.

Allow me to explain:
Value of money is the total value of stuff divided by amount of money. (Vm=Vstuff/Mtot)
There are two ways to decrease it: lower the total value of stuff or increase the amount of money.
Neither is done by raising the minimum wage.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Rev Thwack

Quote from: Reginald Ret on June 21, 2015, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage
That is because it is completely retarded.

Allow me to explain:
Value of money is the total value of stuff divided by amount of money. (Vm=Vstuff/Mtot)
There are two ways to decrease it: lower the total value of stuff or increase the amount of money.
Neither is done by raising the minimum wage.
Well, raising the minimum wage does increase the value of stuff side of the equation, as labor is indeed considered to be stuff in our economy, and increasing the lowest amount paid for such stuff increases its value overall, but not to a point that has any real or lasting effect. Of course, inflation to a point is a good thing and something economists and the fed like to see... Lately it's been low, we'll have to see where it goes. In the end, there are way too many ways to correct for changes in inflation for that to be a meaningful argument against raising the minimum wage... That's like arguing against going out to dinner because your windshield will get dirty and make it hard to see through.
My balls itch...

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Also, the "service jobs aren't a career, therefore people working those jobs shouldn't expect to be able to survive on them" fallacy.

QuoteIn 2008, more than three out of four jobs (77.2 percent) in the U.S. economy were in the service sector. By 2018, this dominance is expected to increase, with 78.8 percent of total employment being in the service sector.[6]
http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publications/issue-fact-sheets/the-service-sector-projections-and-current-stats/

So more than 3 out of 4 Americans apparently have no business expecting to be able to pay bills with wages from full-time work? OK then.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Rev Thwack on June 21, 2015, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Reginald Ret on June 21, 2015, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage
That is because it is completely retarded.

Allow me to explain:
Value of money is the total value of stuff divided by amount of money. (Vm=Vstuff/Mtot)
There are two ways to decrease it: lower the total value of stuff or increase the amount of money.
Neither is done by raising the minimum wage.
Well, raising the minimum wage does increase the value of stuff side of the equation, as labor is indeed considered to be stuff in our economy, and increasing the lowest amount paid for such stuff increases its value overall, but not to a point that has any real or lasting effect. Of course, inflation to a point is a good thing and something economists and the fed like to see... Lately it's been low, we'll have to see where it goes. In the end, there are way too many ways to correct for changes in inflation for that to be a meaningful argument against raising the minimum wage... That's like arguing against going out to dinner because your windshield will get dirty and make it hard to see through.

That's still not inflation.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Demolition Squid

The main thing I hate is the idea that there are jobs where it is okay to be paid next to nothing and be treated in a degrading fashion because 'it isn't a career'.

Guess what, jackwad, people have to do that work - or you won't get your 'meal', and it is never okay to treat people like they are worthless, regardless of how much value you place on their job.

I think a good part of this is misplaced aggression because there's a lot of people out there who feel like what they do 9-5 every day doesn't actually produce anything meaningful and they like to push other people down to make themselves feel better by comparison. 'Sure, all I accomplished today was to send a few dozen emails, but at least I'm not flipping burgers!'
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Reginald Ret

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 03:15:43 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on June 21, 2015, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Reginald Ret on June 21, 2015, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage
That is because it is completely retarded.

Allow me to explain:
Value of money is the total value of stuff divided by amount of money. (Vm=Vstuff/Mtot)
There are two ways to decrease it: lower the total value of stuff or increase the amount of money.
Neither is done by raising the minimum wage.
Well, raising the minimum wage does increase the value of stuff side of the equation, as labor is indeed considered to be stuff in our economy, and increasing the lowest amount paid for such stuff increases its value overall, but not to a point that has any real or lasting effect. Of course, inflation to a point is a good thing and something economists and the fed like to see... Lately it's been low, we'll have to see where it goes. In the end, there are way too many ways to correct for changes in inflation for that to be a meaningful argument against raising the minimum wage... That's like arguing against going out to dinner because your windshield will get dirty and make it hard to see through.

That's still not inflation.
I assumed he meant amount instead of value, in that case it kinda makes sense in an Economist's sense.

But this shit here? That is the reason economists should be shot on graduation. Labour is what you do to increase the amount of stuff. The moment you start thinking labor is the same as stuff you start thinking that inefficiency is only good for complex (read: interesting) jobs, because in simple(read: boring) jobs the result of doing a simple job more efficiently means that the value won by getting more stuff is completely lost to the lost value of taking less hours to do the labour. While fun and interesting jobs are streamlined away because they benefit the most from reducing workhours.

Fukken economists. They should be drawn, quartered, hung from a tree, shot until they fall down, and run over by a Buick.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I don't think that condemning an entire field of study just because it produces many flawed theories is very productive, either. Economics is sort of a conglomeration of anthropology, psychology, history, and statistics, and the systems they're trying to work with are dynamic, complex, and incompletely understood. They aren't CREATING the systems, though; they're DESCRIBING the systems. Sometimes very badly. But still, getting rid of economists because they aren't very good at understanding economic systems is a bit like getting rid of psychologists in the 1930's because they weren't very good at understanding psychology; it wouldn't have made human psychology go away, it would have just impeded the accumulation of knowledge about it.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Reginald Ret

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 06:13:20 PM
I don't think that condemning an entire field of study just because it produces many flawed theories is very productive, either. Economics is sort of a conglomeration of anthropology, psychology, history, and statistics, and the systems they're trying to work with are dynamic, complex, and incompletely understood. They aren't CREATING the systems, though; they're DESCRIBING the systems. Sometimes very badly. But still, getting rid of economists because they aren't very good at understanding economic systems is a bit like getting rid of psychologists in the 1930's because they weren't very good at understanding psychology; it wouldn't have made human psychology go away, it would have just impeded the accumulation of knowledge about it.
Economists lack the feedback required to make it a form of science.
They project and project but they never review.
They never even try to estimate the accuracy of their past projections.
And then, having bolstered their ego by ignoring reality, they project some more.
I stand by my point. Fuck 'em all with pointy sticks.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Reginald Ret on June 21, 2015, 10:05:23 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 06:13:20 PM
I don't think that condemning an entire field of study just because it produces many flawed theories is very productive, either. Economics is sort of a conglomeration of anthropology, psychology, history, and statistics, and the systems they're trying to work with are dynamic, complex, and incompletely understood. They aren't CREATING the systems, though; they're DESCRIBING the systems. Sometimes very badly. But still, getting rid of economists because they aren't very good at understanding economic systems is a bit like getting rid of psychologists in the 1930's because they weren't very good at understanding psychology; it wouldn't have made human psychology go away, it would have just impeded the accumulation of knowledge about it.
Economists lack the feedback required to make it a form of science.
They project and project but they never review.
They never even try to estimate the accuracy of their past projections.
And then, having bolstered their ego by ignoring reality, they project some more.
I stand by my point. Fuck 'em all with pointy sticks.

That seems... sweeping, shallow, and inaccurate. I don't have a tremendous amount of respect for the field of economics, particularly pop economics, but as an academic field it is still developing.

Can you cite some sources for those statements? If not, I'm going to just assume you're going through one of your all-hyperbole phases again and are (hopefully) temporarily incapable of contributing meaningfully to conversations.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Johnny

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage

There's a billion excuses to lay off people, one of them has been the machinization of production, which isnt necesarrily a matter of cost-efficiency most of the time, but rather to break the power of unions and make factory workers/employeees a malleable mass that can be subdued.

How many cases are there where a working hand is replaced with a bot that requires a huge investment and it also requires specialized maintenance by a specially trained engineer that ends up costing more than the original working hand?

But im sure you are pre-rich, so does it even matter?
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 10:18:11 PM
Quote from: Reginald Ret on June 21, 2015, 10:05:23 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 06:13:20 PM
I don't think that condemning an entire field of study just because it produces many flawed theories is very productive, either. Economics is sort of a conglomeration of anthropology, psychology, history, and statistics, and the systems they're trying to work with are dynamic, complex, and incompletely understood. They aren't CREATING the systems, though; they're DESCRIBING the systems. Sometimes very badly. But still, getting rid of economists because they aren't very good at understanding economic systems is a bit like getting rid of psychologists in the 1930's because they weren't very good at understanding psychology; it wouldn't have made human psychology go away, it would have just impeded the accumulation of knowledge about it.
Economists lack the feedback required to make it a form of science.
They project and project but they never review.
They never even try to estimate the accuracy of their past projections.
And then, having bolstered their ego by ignoring reality, they project some more.
I stand by my point. Fuck 'em all with pointy sticks.

That seems... sweeping, shallow, and inaccurate. I don't have a tremendous amount of respect for the field of economics, particularly pop economics, but as an academic field it is still developing.

Can you cite some sources for those statements? If not, I'm going to just assume you're going through one of your all-hyperbole phases again and are (hopefully) temporarily incapable of contributing meaningfully to conversations.

He mad, sis.

I'd only like to offer the distinction between the more vocally wrong economists, which are the ones that are paid or lobbied to hold such opinions, like most if not all of the think-tank assholes, and the good economists no one has heard of because the powers that be arent interested in promoting them.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Reginald Ret

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 10:18:11 PM
Quote from: Reginald Ret on June 21, 2015, 10:05:23 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 21, 2015, 06:13:20 PM
I don't think that condemning an entire field of study just because it produces many flawed theories is very productive, either. Economics is sort of a conglomeration of anthropology, psychology, history, and statistics, and the systems they're trying to work with are dynamic, complex, and incompletely understood. They aren't CREATING the systems, though; they're DESCRIBING the systems. Sometimes very badly. But still, getting rid of economists because they aren't very good at understanding economic systems is a bit like getting rid of psychologists in the 1930's because they weren't very good at understanding psychology; it wouldn't have made human psychology go away, it would have just impeded the accumulation of knowledge about it.
Economists lack the feedback required to make it a form of science.
They project and project but they never review.
They never even try to estimate the accuracy of their past projections.
And then, having bolstered their ego by ignoring reality, they project some more.
I stand by my point. Fuck 'em all with pointy sticks.

That seems... sweeping, shallow, and inaccurate. I don't have a tremendous amount of respect for the field of economics, particularly pop economics, but as an academic field it is still developing.

Can you cite some sources for those statements? If not, I'm going to just assume you're going through one of your all-hyperbole phases again and are (hopefully) temporarily incapable of contributing meaningfully to conversations.
I'm reading up on economics just to prove you wrong.
As you can see, my initial statements lack foundation.
It is very likely that it is  one of my all-hyperbole phases (i like that phrase btw), but i will not rest until i have read more economics or have gotten distracted by something.
Well, except for now. now is bed time.

PS Your assumption would be well grounded, if I start making sense you will probably notice.

Other than that, I still think Carthage needs to be burned to the ground Economics sucks.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 03:56:36 AM
As soon as they raise the minumum wage the corporations will raise prices and/or lay people off in order to recoup the increased personnel expenses (unless it passes in conjunction with other laws specifically forbidding the corporations from doing that), quickly returning the overall levels of poverty and human misery back to where they were before. It is acceptable as a temporary stopgap fix but will likely be useless for effecting lasting change.

Historically-speaking, this has NEVER happened with an increase in the minimum wage.

You are a dumbfuck.
Molon Lube

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: The Johnny on June 21, 2015, 10:22:44 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 21, 2015, 09:23:50 AM
Ok, the US department of labor says that the studies they've reviewed indicate that increases to the minimum wage are not correlated with layoffs, so I was wrong about that. It also says that raising it is not in general bad for the economy. The idea that it may speed up inflation however is conspicuously absent from their list of common myths about the minimum wage

There's a billion excuses to lay off people, one of them has been the machinization of production, which isnt necesarrily a matter of cost-efficiency most of the time, but rather to break the power of unions and make factory workers/employeees a malleable mass that can be subdued.

How many cases are there where a working hand is replaced with a bot that requires a huge investment and it also requires specialized maintenance by a specially trained engineer that ends up costing more than the original working hand?

But im sure you are pre-rich, so does it even matter?


Wait, are you saying that raising the minimum wage will or won't lead to layoffs?

Also, mechanization is necessary for the eventual advent of a post-scarcity society. People get screwed over by it now, but that's because society hasn't caught up with the technology and the technology isn't yet quite to where it needs to be. It hurts people now, but in a rather short time on a historical timescale (still rather long subjectively though, as compared to a human lifespan, I'll admit) things will be better than they ever were. Eventually it will seem absurd to expect people to work because there will quite visibly be only a tiny handful of things that need doing. Change should hopefully cascade upwards once there's nobody left for managers to manage.

Also regardless of which side is winning the conflict between capitalists/management and workers/proletariat has the primary effect of screwing over the consumer. A plague on both their houses.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago