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A ? about the Illuminatus trilogy

Started by Technocracy, September 21, 2005, 02:09:25 AM

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Technocracy

I just finished reading the book and was thinking about the section in the appendix where they mention you will understand about all you need to about mysticism if you understand the passage about Hagbard abdicating.  Here is the section of the text:

..."As for the rest of you - who can tell me, without uttering a word, the fallacy of the Illuminati?"

A young girl - she was no more than fifteen, George guessed, and the youngest member of the crew; he had heard she was a runaway from a fabulously rich Italian family in Rom - slowly raised her hand and clenched her fist.

Hagbard turned on her furiously. "How many times must I tell you people: no faking! You got that out of some cheap book on Zen that neither the author or you understood a damned word of. I hate to be dictatorial, but phony mysticism is the one thing Discordianism can't survive. You're on sh*twork, in the kitchen, for a week, you wise-ass brat."

The girl remained immobile, in the same position, fist raised, and only slowly did George read the slight smile that curled her mouth. Then he started to smile himself.

I'm curious what people think they mean by that.

My first thoughts were that she was showing that the fallacy of the illuminati is that all control and authority is an illusion unless the submissive remain submissive.

I also wondered if making a fist was somehow supposed to be the sound of one hand clapping mentioned elsewhere in the book.

My only other thought was that it was a play on words instead of fallacy they meant phallic since according to their thoughts all magical or mystical symbols refer to one of a "few" special kinds of human sacrifice, i.e. penetrative sex.  They mention several examples like Cupid shooting an arrow in a pulsing heart, the sacred heart, etc.

I'm just curious what other people who read the book thought.

Because my life is worth more than yours

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Technocracy
I'm just curious what other people who read the book thought.

I thought RAW was trying to sound mystical by being obtuse.

He always was a 2-bit hack.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

ataraxia

I'm with Roger, I think RAW was going for obscurity - and I'm sure most of the esoteria was indeed very obscure when the book was new, in the pre-Internet stone age. I don't think he ever could have anticipated Google spoiling his jokes. (Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)

That said, I've always thought this scene was a reference to a case from the "Gateless Gate" (Mumonkan) of Zen:

Quote from: Wu-men Hui-hai
CASE 11. JOSHU'S HERMIT

Joshu went to a hermit's and asked, "What's up? What's up?"(="Have you any Zen?") The hermit lifted up his fist. Joshu said, "The water is too shallow to anchor here," and went away. Joshu visited the hermit once again a few days later and said, "What's up? What's up?" The hermit raised his fist again. Then Joshu said, "Well given, well taken, well killed, well saved." And he bowed to the hermit.

Mumon's Comment:
The raised fist was the same both times. Why was one accepted, the other rejected? Just say, where is the confusion between the two?

If you can answer this by a word of true comprehension, then you realize that Joshu's tongue has no bone and that he can absolutely freely use it. Even though this is so, the hermit might have seen through Joshu both times. If you wonder whether the first hermit be superior (or inferior) to the second, then you have no one eye.

His eye is a meteor,
Zen's movement is like lightning.
The sword that kills the man,
is the sword that saves the man.
Don't ask me what it means, though, unless it's telling us that all such mysticism is about knowing the in-jokes.

Yes, this is the same Joshu that Kerry made to say "From now on do not hit people by mistake!" in his intro to PD.
Lossage, sausage, whatever.
http://scoriens.andrew.cmu.edu/

Technocracy

Well I always got the impression that the driving point behind all of the book's jokes, half truths, full truths and no truths was:

You are free to think for yourself so why don't you?

I found this article RAW wrote about calandars that is somewhat a sequel to the bit about calanders in the appendix.

Calander

I've thought about picking up Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy since reading the Illuminatus! book felt like I remember college afternoons feeling like, hazy and insightful with lots of time to think :shock:

Because my life is worth more than yours

BADGE OF HONOR

That's "calendar" to you, missy.

And I wouldn't take anything by RAW too seriously, if I were you.
The Jerk On Bike rolled his eyes and tossed the waffle back over his shoulder--before it struck the ground, a stout, disconcertingly monkey-like dog sprang into the air and snatched it, and began to masticate it--literally--for the sound it made was like a homonculus squatting on the floor muttering "masticate masticate masticate".

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: TechnocracyWell I always got the impression that the driving point behind all of the book's jokes, half truths, full truths and no truths was:

"Somebody help me!  I can't figure out how to end this book!"


Fixed!@
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ataraxia(Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)

I shamelessy rip off the ideas from the OM appendix for IRL use.

Other than that, yeah.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

ataraxia

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: ataraxia(Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)

I shamelessy rip off the ideas from the OM appendix for IRL use.

Other than that, yeah.
That's exceptionally consistent. What is more useful to fertilize cabbage patches than bullshit?
Lossage, sausage, whatever.
http://scoriens.andrew.cmu.edu/

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ataraxia
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: ataraxia(Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)

I shamelessy rip off the ideas from the OM appendix for IRL use.

Other than that, yeah.
That's exceptionally consistent. What is more useful to fertilize cabbage patches than bullshit?

I'm not out to fertilize them.

I agree with the MEANS of OM, but not the ENDS, so to speak.

TGRR,
Just plain likes tormenting people.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy

Quote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking...
You lost me here, you finished the book, thinking?  My brain went numb for the whole time I was reading it and a few days after that :lol:

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy
Quote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking...
You lost me here, you finished the book, thinking?  My brain went numb for the whole time I was reading it and a few days after that :lol:

I rarely finish RAW books.

He always loses it in the last 2 chapters, and winds up imitating James Joyce.  Who sucks my ass.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

BADGE OF HONOR

QuoteTGRR,
Just plain likes tormenting people.
RAH!!
The Jerk On Bike rolled his eyes and tossed the waffle back over his shoulder--before it struck the ground, a stout, disconcertingly monkey-like dog sprang into the air and snatched it, and began to masticate it--literally--for the sound it made was like a homonculus squatting on the floor muttering "masticate masticate masticate".

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Rabid Badger of God
QuoteTGRR,
Just plain likes tormenting people.
RAH!!

That's why they...well, they DON'T pay me, but they should.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

BADGE OF HONOR

I want to get payed for being a sadistic bitch.  I guess I should see if the DMV is hiring.
The Jerk On Bike rolled his eyes and tossed the waffle back over his shoulder--before it struck the ground, a stout, disconcertingly monkey-like dog sprang into the air and snatched it, and began to masticate it--literally--for the sound it made was like a homonculus squatting on the floor muttering "masticate masticate masticate".

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodI want to get payed for being a sadistic bitch.  I guess I should see if the DMV is hiring.

Okay, but you'll have to have your soul removed.

It's a rule.

Another fine option is collections.  Or the complaints department at Microsoft.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.