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Separation of church and YOUR FACE

Started by LMNO, October 09, 2012, 02:01:29 PM

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LMNO

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 10, 2012, 06:37:53 PM
Incidentally, the Book of Judas firmly supports TGRR's "Malevolent Deity" theory.

Not really.  It supports the idea that Judas was in on the whole thing from the beginning, though, and that God definitely has a vengeful side to him, even after Jesus.


No?  I was pretty sure it says that the thing we call "God" is really a mean and petty fallen angel who fucks with the world because it can, and the "true" god is far above the earthly realm, and doesn't really give a shit about us.

Mangrove

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 10, 2012, 06:45:59 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 10, 2012, 06:37:53 PM
Incidentally, the Book of Judas firmly supports TGRR's "Malevolent Deity" theory.

Not really.  It supports the idea that Judas was in on the whole thing from the beginning, though, and that God definitely has a vengeful side to him, even after Jesus.


No?  I was pretty sure it says that the thing we call "God" is really a mean and petty fallen angel who fucks with the world because it can, and the "true" god is far above the earthly realm, and doesn't really give a shit about us.

Sounds like Gnostic territory. My understanding is that the Demi-Urge is not necessarily 'evil' but it is incomplete, confused and that the material world is flawed because the agencies of creation are too.

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Cain

And the name of that fallen angel is Angra Mainyu.  /blatant spoiler

Juana

 :lulz:

Quote from: Cain on October 10, 2012, 06:28:17 PM
All wrong.

Jesus was a mushroom.
:lulz: I love that idea. Definitely explains Revelations.



Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on October 10, 2012, 06:24:10 PM
Sure, he hated the Pharisees. They were Roman lackeys.

That would be "Herod".  The Romans took no hand in local religions at that time (with the exception of any religion that employed human sacrifice, which they exterminated on sight).
Okay, I had forgotten about that. Herod, though, was the one who had Jesus and John executed (and also Mang's point about keeping shit quiet so the Romans keep their mitts off the treasury).
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Mangrove on October 10, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on October 10, 2012, 06:29:23 PM
PS. Not read the Gospel of Judas, though I do think I either have that in my library somewhere or have a commentary on it that I have not got 'round to.

Look it up online.  Seriously, it's a must-read.  If it was readable.  Stars fighting each other in the sky, etc.

Quote from: Mangrove on October 10, 2012, 06:29:23 PM
I've not read Luke in any detail.

It's worth reading.  It's the sort of thing that attracted the poor into the church in the early days.

Sort of like Revelation, which is NOTHING like it's portrayed to be by the religious nuts.  It's more a promise that people will, at some point, get precisely what they deserve.

For example, look up revelation 11:18 sometime.  The republicans don't like that verse much.

Aha. Thanks for the tips Rog. I just checked my books...I actually have 'Beyond Belief' by Elaine Pagels which is actually about the Gospel of Thomas and not of Judas.

I would ask Mrs Mang about the Bible for, once upon a very long time ago, she was a Baptist and she knows the book far better than I. Though, my attempt to discuss Revelation with in the past was short lived.

Me: So, when you were in the church, what did you think of Revelation?
Mrs Mang: TL/DR....thought it was scary, freaked me out and didn't read it.

Pity.  It's great stuff, but it's commonly misrepresented as God going batshit on everyone and his dog.  It isn't. 

Quote from: Revelation 11:18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.




" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#65
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on October 10, 2012, 06:58:53 PM
:lulz:

Quote from: Cain on October 10, 2012, 06:28:17 PM
All wrong.

Jesus was a mushroom.
:lulz: I love that idea. Definitely explains Revelations.



Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 06:29:44 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on October 10, 2012, 06:24:10 PM
Sure, he hated the Pharisees. They were Roman lackeys.

That would be "Herod".  The Romans took no hand in local religions at that time (with the exception of any religion that employed human sacrifice, which they exterminated on sight).
Okay, I had forgotten about that. Herod, though, was the one who had Jesus and John executed (and also Mang's point about keeping shit quiet so the Romans keep their mitts off the treasury).

Um, that was my comment.

And no, Herod didn't execute Jesus.  Pilate did.  Herod didn't have the power to put a man to death at that time.  Execution via government was reserved strictly to the Romans.  The pressure put on Pilate by the Pharisees was based on the first commandment of colonial government:  Thou Shalt Not Kick Up a Ruckus.

Herod was on the sidelines for that one, mostly BECAUSE he had John the Baptist killed, which itself kicked up a ruckus.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on October 10, 2012, 06:24:10 PM
Sure, he hated the Pharisees. They were Roman lackeys. But, seriously, to survive they needed to strip as much as they could of anti-Roman sentiment from the oral history. Which they did.

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 10, 2012, 06:07:52 PM
The problem is that Josephus has been pretty throughly discredited as a source for anything on Jesus (the dude from the gospels) the stuff in his writings, according to most experts, was added later. In fact, as it stands now, there appear to be no non gospel writings from the period that confirm Jesus ever existed, let alone what his political and social leanings were.

So we can really only use the biblical texts to discuss the biblical Jesus (which has its own set of contradictions). Within that context, Jesus was purely a spiritual leader. At one point the Jews wanted to make him king, but he escaped. The biblical Jesus was not a political revolutionary.

I just did a check and I am absolutely not seeing that, Rat. If it was something most experts were saying, about a million articles would be popping and and I've not seen so much as one.

Regardless, there are other contemporary texts to discuss the social and political context of the era though, among them the Dead Sea Scrolls. Like I said, they back up the social and political context, and you can't discount them at the very least in that regard.

The social and political context of Israel was full of messiahs, most of whom were politically revolutionary.

I was a bit brief before, since I was writing from my phone, but I'll expand a bit.

There are three schools of though on Josephus' comments about Jesus.

1. Its all 100% original to Josephus
2. It's 100% bullshit added later by Christians to bolster their claims
3. Josephus may have made some commentary based on the stories and rumors about Jesus and the early Christian beliefs, but these were heavily embellished later.

A good summary and links to sources:
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page10.htm

However, even if we were to accept wholesale Josephus' account, it says nothing about Jesus being a political activist. He says Jesus was a great guy did some wonderful stuff and got killed by Pilate "at the suggestion of the principle men among us" (the Jews). If Jesus had been a political rebel, Pilate would not have needed the Jews to egg him into killing Jesus. Pilate and the romans were used to dealing with Jewish rebels and political messiahs.

However, it would make much more sense if Jesus were a religious rebel. Pilate wouldn't care so much about that, but his allies among the Pharisees and Priests would. In many of the gospel accounts, Jesus is directly attacking the spiritual leadership of the Jewish nation. He calls the Pharisees "whitewashed graves"and "serpents, offspring of vipers". He condems them as mistreating the Jews "as sheep without a shepherd". He says that they "bind up heavy loads" on the Jews. For example, the Pharisees were principle among those that began to strongly codify laws around the commandments, for example, not working on the sabbath, became "You can't wear sandals held together with iron nails, because the iron makes you do extra work to lift your foot".

The money changers mentioned earlier are another example.

Nowhere in the Gospels or in Josephus does Jesus appear to go against the Romans, he appears entirely focused on the religious leaders with a religious message.

Regardless of what the original Jesus may have said... the spiritual messiah image is the Jesus that Christians follow and the Jesus applicable to the discussion about the interpretation of his statement to pay back Caesar's things to Caesar.

Oh and Herod didn't have Jesus killed... he whimped off and passed him to Pilate with a "this isn't my jurisdiction" sort of cop-out.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Anna Mae Bollocks

And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.

If that's the case, then Ivan Stang wrote Luke.

No shit.  It reads like him.  "Quit your fucking worrying."
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.

If that's the case, then Ivan Stang wrote Luke.

No shit.  It reads like him.  "Quit your fucking worrying."

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You know, Luke was the only one who mentioned a virgin birth. And he was a Greek.  :lol:
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.

If that's the case, then Ivan Stang wrote Luke.

No shit.  It reads like him.  "Quit your fucking worrying."

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You know, Luke was the only one who mentioned a virgin birth. And he was a Greek.  :lol:

Again, pure Stang/Philo Drummond.  I'm surprised he wasn't visited by 3 wise yetis.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.

If that's the case, then Ivan Stang wrote Luke.

No shit.  It reads like him.  "Quit your fucking worrying."

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You know, Luke was the only one who mentioned a virgin birth. And he was a Greek.  :lol:

Again, pure Stang/Philo Drummond.  I'm surprised he wasn't visited by 3 wise yetis.

Those writings could still turn up.  :lulz:
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:41:38 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.

If that's the case, then Ivan Stang wrote Luke.

No shit.  It reads like him.  "Quit your fucking worrying."

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You know, Luke was the only one who mentioned a virgin birth. And he was a Greek.  :lol:

Again, pure Stang/Philo Drummond.  I'm surprised he wasn't visited by 3 wise yetis.

Those writings could still turn up.  :lulz:

*looks up methods of "aging" parchment*
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mangrove

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:06:28 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on October 10, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on October 10, 2012, 06:29:23 PM
PS. Not read the Gospel of Judas, though I do think I either have that in my library somewhere or have a commentary on it that I have not got 'round to.

Look it up online.  Seriously, it's a must-read.  If it was readable.  Stars fighting each other in the sky, etc.

Quote from: Mangrove on October 10, 2012, 06:29:23 PM
I've not read Luke in any detail.

It's worth reading.  It's the sort of thing that attracted the poor into the church in the early days.

Sort of like Revelation, which is NOTHING like it's portrayed to be by the religious nuts.  It's more a promise that people will, at some point, get precisely what they deserve.

For example, look up revelation 11:18 sometime.  The republicans don't like that verse much.

Aha. Thanks for the tips Rog. I just checked my books...I actually have 'Beyond Belief' by Elaine Pagels which is actually about the Gospel of Thomas and not of Judas.

I would ask Mrs Mang about the Bible for, once upon a very long time ago, she was a Baptist and she knows the book far better than I. Though, my attempt to discuss Revelation with in the past was short lived.

Me: So, when you were in the church, what did you think of Revelation?
Mrs Mang: TL/DR....thought it was scary, freaked me out and didn't read it.

Pity.  It's great stuff, but it's commonly misrepresented as God going batshit on everyone and his dog.  It isn't.

Quote from: Revelation 11:18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Good point. Back in the day before Mrs Mang became a born-again Heathen, she went to Bible study classes. While in that reality tunnel, she said that everyone were deeply impressed by their pastor because he had gone to school and studied the Bible deeply. And being something of an asshole at times I asked:

Me: So, Pastor **** can read Latin, Greek & Hebrew?
Mrs Mang: No.
Me: Where did he study theology?
Mrs Mang: At a bible college....in the South.
Me: Then you weren't studying the Bible...it's just endlessly rehashing the particular interpretation agreed by the Southern Baptists.

And so we get locked into the same tired interpretations over and over again. The fun part is that the bits that Baptists really like to harp on about like The Rapture aren't even in the damn book to begin with. All the 'floating zombie at the end of days' silliness came out of a crank Scottish minister in the 19th century. Nothing to do with Revelation at all.
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:43:06 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:41:38 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 10, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 10, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
And there's the possibility that Jesus was a fictional, or at least composite character. It's all force-fitted to old Jewish prophecies.

If that's the case, then Ivan Stang wrote Luke.

No shit.  It reads like him.  "Quit your fucking worrying."

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You know, Luke was the only one who mentioned a virgin birth. And he was a Greek.  :lol:

Again, pure Stang/Philo Drummond.  I'm surprised he wasn't visited by 3 wise yetis.

Those writings could still turn up.  :lulz:

*looks up methods of "aging" parchment*

Stain it with Lipton tea.  :lulz:
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division