A Chaos Marxism Primer

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Ok, the first thing I feel the need to do is parse out the "you are not a unique snowflake" meme with the concept of "individual".

I've always taken the meme to be shorthand for, "You do not get special rules.  You are made up of the same stuff as everyone else.  Universe does not take you into account when making plans.  Nature is allowed to kill you.  You are a monkey, just the same as the rest of us."

However, I've taken that as a starting point.  "You are not special" does not preclude "You are an individual".  After realizing that you're just another monkey at the zoo, then it's up to you to create the differences.  Any differences between you and some spag on the street are not Cosmic Blessings, they're ENTIRELY YOUR OWN CREATION.

In short, don't wait around for Universe to give you what you need.  Go out and fucking take it.

Very well said, LMNO!

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm still irritated that a fair amount of good ideas are being used towards such a naive and self-serving end (the whole anti-capitalism thing).

People who try to mix "guru" and "revolutionary" (especially under the guise of promoting egolessness) are not to be trusted or even listened to, IMO.

[LMNO]

Upon a second look at the 127 points, I have to agree that Doloros' "ends" aren't that exciting, but the "means" certainly deserve more attention.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm still irritated that a fair amount of good ideas are being used towards such a naive and self-serving end (the whole anti-capitalism thing).

People who try to mix "guru" and "revolutionary" (especially under the guise of promoting egolessness) are not to be trusted or even listened to, IMO.

There is a kinda vibe that seems particularly strong among some Discordians which is a left leaning anti-capitalist sort of thing. I used to be somewhat confused by that, since all the fools that kicked the movement off were, in fact, capitalists. However, I've come to think that when most of these people say "Capitalism" they mean "Consumerism", and "Commercialism". Reading the CM stuff, i think thats the brunt of Delores' target. I mean, she doesn't seem to rail against people having money to invest in things.

However, I agree that anyone who is promoting a 'solution' is likely not egoless (IMO, you gotta have an ego in order to promote your philosophy), especially if that 'solution' involves revolting against the status quo.

On the other hand, a mass movement can dislodge even well entrenched 'reality'. See Egypt, for example. If millions and millions of Americans just said 'No' to crass commercialism and consumerism, we'd probably see some changes. I personally don't think such a movement is very likely... at best you may get a few hundred or thousand (far too few to tilt the board).

A lot of these ideas would apply very well to the individual though. An individual can modify their BiP, and they can they extract themselves from a given tribal system or place their ego in the backseat to join a cause they care about. Doing that at a macro level though, I think is where this sort of concept begins to break down. Again, given my past with converting people, I may be baised.

"When men are free, then Mankind will be free. Discordian, Free Thyself."

[Cramulus]

TO ME what really stands out is this idea that we can create alternatives to culture which will in turn create new types of identities. That seems especially powerful in this part of the information age, where subcultures can form at the drop of a hat, based on anything at all (this community being a prime example). We are living in Strange Times.

I've gone through some real rough financial periods over the last few years, and at the bottom of it, the only thing saving my sanity was a dismissal of capitalism. "It ain't all about the dolla bill - you could be flat broke and be a scholar still".. I was working a shitty job, living in a shitty place, and the only thing that kept me going was the idea that You Are Not Your Bank Account. When you can't take your girlfriend out for dinner, you can only afford ramen noodles and oven pizza, it really starts to wear on your self worth. But the silver lining is, if you can detach from that stuff, you don't have to feel bad all the time. I destroyed capitalism in my own life by going for a long walk in the woods every day with my girlfriend. Yeah you still gotta live and die by the paycheck, but you can give yourself different priorities.. Speaking as a mother, that's one of the things that stimulation from a community can really help with.

Burning Man strikes me as a good example. I've never been to Burning Man, but people tell me that it's a parallel universe. People spend all year making costumes and floats for Burning Man. And why? Not because of capitalism. You've got a network of artists and other whackjobs with their own currency of ideas and creativity, putting REAL EFFORT into doing something which makes the world better in some way. And why? Because that community has its own set of feedback loops which reward creativity and innovation.

There's nothing like it out here on the east coast. When I tell people about the projects I work on, they always ask me how much money I make off of it. When I tell them "usually nothing" they act like I must be crazy. Why spend so much time on stuff that isn't profitable? That's what needs to be destroyed IMO -- how money becomes the measuring stick for worth and validity.

When I read the Black Iron Prison pamphlet, it shifted something in my head. In hindsight, this was possible because I was ready to transform myself, and I was looking for input. To me, the BIP pamphlet woke me up, snapped me out of the magical thinking pinealist haze I had been living in. Doloras thinks that we can build an alternative culture which has that property, merely finding out about it will snap people out of their trance. We probably disagree about what that trance is, but I think we DO agree that a lot of people are living in one.

My only hope for the future is that we can build islands in this sea of bureaucracy, things that people can latch onto so they can develop in new ways.




The Archons are gradually making us into better consumers and subjects. They are getting better at marketing and persuasion. So we too need to become masters of media, able to create charged ideas which create actual change in this world. We talk a lot about how masturbatory it is to jerk off to squiggles - how this a waste of energy that could be spent better pursuing actual change. This begs the question: what IS the avenue to pursue that change? How can we create real change in the material world using our words, images, thoughts?

[East Coast Hustle]

TO ME what really stands out is this idea that we can create alternatives to culture which will in turn create new types of identities. That seems especially powerful in this part of the information age, where subcultures can form at the drop of a hat, based on anything at all (this community being a prime example). We are living in Strange Times.

I've gone through some real rough financial periods over the last few years, and at the bottom of it, the only thing saving my sanity was a dismissal of capitalism. "It ain't all about the dolla bill - you could be flat broke and be a scholar still".. I was working a shitty job, living in a shitty place, and the only thing that kept me going was the idea that You Are Not Your Bank Account. When you can't take your girlfriend out for dinner, you can only afford ramen noodles and oven pizza, it really starts to wear on your self worth. But the silver lining is, if you can detach from that stuff, you don't have to feel bad all the time. I destroyed capitalism in my own life by going for a long walk in the woods every day with my girlfriend. Yeah you still gotta live and die by the paycheck, but you can give yourself different priorities.. Speaking as a mother, that's one of the things that stimulation from a community can really help with.

Burning Man strikes me as a good example. I've never been to Burning Man, but people tell me that it's a parallel universe. People spend all year making costumes and floats for Burning Man. And why? Not because of capitalism. You've got a network of artists and other whackjobs with their own currency of ideas and creativity, putting REAL EFFORT into doing something which makes the world better in some way. And why? Because that community has its own set of feedback loops which reward creativity and innovation.

There's nothing like it out here on the east coast. When I tell people about the projects I work on, they always ask me how much money I make off of it. When I tell them "usually nothing" they act like I must be crazy. Why spend so much time on stuff that isn't profitable? That's what needs to be destroyed IMO -- how money becomes the measuring stick for worth and validity.

When I read the Black Iron Prison pamphlet, it shifted something in my head. In hindsight, this was possible because I was ready to transform myself, and I was looking for input. To me, the BIP pamphlet woke me up, snapped me out of the magical thinking pinealist haze I had been living in. Doloras thinks that we can build an alternative culture which has that property, merely finding out about it will snap people out of their trance. We probably disagree about what that trance is, but I think we DO agree that a lot of people are living in one.

My only hope for the future is that we can build islands in this sea of bureaucracy, things that people can latch onto so they can develop in new ways.




The Archons are gradually making us into better consumers and subjects. They are getting better at marketing and persuasion. So we too need to become masters of media, able to create charged ideas which create actual change in this world. We talk a lot about how masturbatory it is to jerk off to squiggles - how this a waste of energy that could be spent better pursuing actual change. This begs the question: what IS the avenue to pursue that change? How can we create real change in the material world using our words, images, thoughts?

See, I absolutely agree with you on this stuff. I just really intensely dislike how it is presented in the whole "Chaos Marxism" thing (which I think is about 140 points too long). What you just said was clear, concise, and contained elements that damn near anyone anywhere can relate to (the point about being broke and going for long walks instead of measuring the worth of what you did that day by how much you made and/or spent), which makes it infinitely more valuable than a bunch of commandment-style bulletin points mixed with seemingly-misused esoteric jargon.

Seriously, man, I'm not trying to harsh your enthusiasm for projects that bring people together and try to make the world a better place. I'm all for it, regardless of whether I think the desired outcome is likely. I think it's important just to get people to try...but, I'm a pretty reasonable and open-minded skeptic and a fairly middle-of-the-road guy in terms of where I'd fall on the political and social spectrum. I found both the blog and the original list of points to be incredibly abrasive and off-putting. It's just not something that regular people are going to want to listen to, and if your target audience isn't big enough to include regular people, what's the point of the exercise?

[Cramulus]

See, I absolutely agree with you on this stuff. I just really intensely dislike how it is presented in the whole "Chaos Marxism" thing (which I think is about 140 points too long). What you just said was clear, concise, and contained elements that damn near anyone anywhere can relate to (the point about being broke and going for long walks instead of measuring the worth of what you did that day by how much you made and/or spent), which makes it infinitely more valuable than a bunch of commandment-style bulletin points mixed with seemingly-misused esoteric jargon.

Seriously, man, I'm not trying to harsh your enthusiasm for projects that bring people together and try to make the world a better place. I'm all for it, regardless of whether I think the desired outcome is likely. I think it's important just to get people to try...but, I'm a pretty reasonable and open-minded skeptic and a fairly middle-of-the-road guy in terms of where I'd fall on the political and social spectrum. I found both the blog and the original list of points to be incredibly abrasive and off-putting. It's just not something that regular people are going to want to listen to, and if your target audience isn't big enough to include regular people, what's the point of the exercise?

You have made it abundantly clear ITT that you don't like the way the ideas are presented. Your fixation on these things is starting to sound reminiscent of that dismissal we used to hear all the time, "The Black Iron Prison is a load of pretentious crap because it's too dark and not funny enough."

It's not without a little irony -- what have we tangibly affected with the Black Iron Prison writings? a very small number of people. Honestly we've probably drawn more flame than we have blown minds. Doloras is one of the few people outside of our community who read the thing and liked it enough that she incorporated it into her philosophy. Personally, I think that merits some attention. If we dismiss everything that isn't phrased so as to not offend our delicate community sensibilities, we're nothing more than an ivory tower.

BUT if we can analyze ideas, and pass them through a feedback loop with the intention of creating Quality, then we may be able to come up with something meaningful together.

SO I present the question - what's the next step for Discordia? How can we wake people up? How do we resist the guru trap? What can we do that will actually help the sad, confused, lonely people out there, starting with ourselves?

let's start by looking at other people, like Doloras, who are working on the same problem.

[East Coast Hustle]

I would have assumed that "analyzing ideas and passing them through a feedback loop" includes honest criticism of the packaging of those ideas. And if I'm belaboring the point, it's because you've thus far failed to address it in any fashion other than condescendingly. If you have a great idea and you won't tailor your delivery to maximum effect, well, you're an asshole and I hope your ideas get cancer of the balls.

Since I already know what comes next (accusations of sabotaging our energy, only focusing on negative stuff, ignoring valid points because they poke holes in this really awesome THING you've found), I'm going outside.

[Don Coyote]

Ok, the first thing I feel the need to do is parse out the "you are not a unique snowflake" meme with the concept of "individual".

I've always taken the meme to be shorthand for, "You do not get special rules.  You are made up of the same stuff as everyone else.  Universe does not take you into account when making plans.  Nature is allowed to kill you.  You are a monkey, just the same as the rest of us."

However, I've taken that as a starting point.  "You are not special" does not preclude "You are an individual".  After realizing that you're just another monkey at the zoo, then it's up to you to create the differences.  Any differences between you and some spag on the street are not Cosmic Blessings, they're ENTIRELY YOUR OWN CREATION.

In short, don't wait around for Universe to give you what you need.  Go out and fucking take it.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't want any balls to get cancer.



However, I do think that there are some valid criticisms, not only of the package, but the overall message.

Be that as it may, I will skip on to Cram's point.

What's the next step for Discordia?

I see/hear Discordians ask this all the time, but I don't know what it means. When I read the PD, I figured the next step was to act less like a cabbage. When I read RAW I figured the next step was to try to apply the Cosmic Schmuck Principle to myself.

I love Discordia, I like fnords and 23's and even, albeit begrudgingly, the BiP. I like the idea, the philosophy... but I'm not sure what is with the idea that we have to take it to 'the next level'. Its seems to me that we'd be better served by allowing that awesome philosophy to feed completely new ideas, like Chaos Marxism or Maybe Logic or Hip Hop Shamanism... but none of those things take Discordia to the next level IMO, they apply some of the ideas of Discordianism to something brand new... or at least newish, or maybe with a twist of lime.

But my point is, its not superceeding, expounding or 'taking' Discordia anywhere. The beautiful thing about Discordia IMO, is its simplicity. "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", although a later addition to the Discordian repertoire seems to sum up the whole damn thing. Reality tunnels, Starbuck Pebbles, Hot Dogs, 23's, Law of Fives, Black Iron Prisons, Golden Spheres of Possibility etc etc etc are just ways to poke us into realizing that, more often than not we may not be thinking for ourselves.

So what do you mean by the next step for Discordia? Whats the next set of memes we use to drive home the punch? Whats the next big prank? Or is it more whats the next thing we can do to drive disciples to our Discordia?

How can we wake people up?

From what? I mean its like the Matrix, do you really want to wake people up and show them the shithole that is reality? If they're happy praying to Mammon and existing through crass commercialism, why not let them be. If you wake them up and drop the TROOF on them, maybe they'll never be happy again. IF we can 'wake' people up, do we want that responsibility? What about all the nominal Discordians we 'wake up'? All the ones that don't understand how to think for themselves, and maybe never will? Shall we start a laity class to help them figure out how to metaphorically tie their shoes in the morning?

The Machine is bad, for those of us who don't like it, but there are a lot of people that survive because of it. Before we decide HOW to wake them up, I think we should consider IF we should wake them up... and what it is that we would be waking them up to.

I will say however, that "energy" is not the key here... You need something to offer the poor schmuck when they wake up... We can have all the energetic projects in the world, but if the project wakes people up and they find themselves in an egoless Hive, a Black Iron Prison or a joke book from the 1950's... well a lot of people may not find that a good trade.

"I gave up my Benz, for a fnord." might be great for those of us that prefer to drive fnords... but I sometimes think there's may be something wrong with us anyway.

How do we resist the guru trap?

This I think is the biggest and most important question.

"Think for yourself, Schmuck!" is pretty straightforward and non guru-ish. But, thats because its not telling you the Answer to your problems... its just smacking you in the side of the head and saying "Think for yourself, schmuck!" When we go from 'Yo, fool use your brain!' to "Let's all change the world to make it better (that is , better in my perception)" then I think the guru trap becomes inescapable.

You can give people 'stuff to think about' or you can hand people your 'philosophy'. The former may end up with some disciples trying to follow you around, the latter will drop you headfirst into a guru trap.




*All, of course, in my opinion

[Captain Utopia]

I think either Discordia is either an ongoing process, or it is a static ideology.

No scratch that, I see it as an ideology about being an ongoing process.

[Telarus]

I think either Discordia is either an ongoing process, or it is a static ideology.

No scratch that, I see it as an ideology about being an ongoing process.

Ye GODS that soo close to my response.

Having Cram's 1st question re-framed through Tosk's response, my take is:

Cram's asking us if Discordia is a philosophy (a dead thing that some-one wrote, and that we now need to think/wank about and or incorporate into new things)... or a religion (something that has a core history but changes over time, with rate of change being equal to dogma:catma ratio).

If Discordia 'is' something actually practiced, and not just talked around / used to inspire other creative work, we have a very low dogma:catma ratio. The fact that we Stick Apart make it kinda difficult to get a 'read' on 'Discordian culture'. I think Cram want's to see Discordia as an active player (like a Colbert or Gaga) instead of a passive resource (like the local newsman, or the Black Eye Peas).

What comes next -> How do we get there?

[Cramulus]

I thank everybody for very thoughtful answers...

Let me be a spag for a second and shift the goal posts over by a few inches...

I want to amend that question What's the next step for Discordia?

                        I think a better question might be What's the next step for us?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How can we wake people up?

Do we want to wake people up?  I'm not so sure, anymore.

[Placid Dingo]

I'm going to keep throwing together my dot points and then expand on a few ideas.

10. The way we understand ego in this context is as a sense of self built around a very specific idea of individuality.

11. This idea is a capitalist/consumerist one, built around expressing yourself through corporate choices

12. Real individuality is impossible inside capitalism, because capitalism makes itself essential for expressing individuality, or for even surviving.

13. By identifying as part of a group offering an alternative to capitalism we create a new shared identity.

14. This shared identity begins to offer us freedom to seek a more authentic sense of being an individual, without capitalist tools.

15. We achieve this by embracing action over aesthetic. We are what we do, not how we look.

Ok, back to the link before. The reason I suggested 000s article was because I think the nature of capitalism is changing, to meet the needs of the kinds of tribes that are developing now.

Cram expresses the kind of simple idea a non-branding system is good for; there's something more than/better than/different to money to strive for in life.

How do you make this a popular idea?

For starters we need to acknowledge a truth about the idea of consumerism; it is in itself parasitic. To sell products to a market you first need a market to sell products to. Companies know this, and employ 'cool hunters' to find authentically developing trends to adapt and market (aka rape and pillage).

Commercialism has successfully made itself a key point, or even the key point of many cultures. To be a punk you need the right anarchy shirt. To be a rider or a hip hopper or a fitness buff you need the right gear.

Chaos Marxism suggests we need to develop a counter culture to combat this culture. I suggest we need cultures instead.

In a talk on TED (you can also find a link from the AoM page) Malcolm Gladwell talks about universal variability in relation to spaghetti sauce; the culture shift from finding the right recipe to the right recipes. So not all people are the same. Not all people are going to be easy to infect with the ideas of Chaos Marxism, but many many groups would be open to a personally minibranded message similar to Cram's above; there is a higher goal than consumerism.

Punks should know which of their Ilk have the best shows, not who sells the best hair dye. Rappers need to know where to find inspiration, not hip-hop apparel. Exercisers need to know the best street to run down, not the price of a pump bottle. And so on.

Perhaps chaos Marxism works better as a banner uniting propagandists promoting action over aesthetic/consumerism, than as the counter culture itself.

Also; http://placiddingo.com/?p=166 is an article I did on the aesthetic vs actual thing.