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Prostitution & feminism

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, November 28, 2011, 10:03:47 PM

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Elder Iptuous

verily.
sry.
it was more a comment on discussing prostitution free of the baggage of trafficking etc.  which may be seen as splitting semantic hairs, but which, i agree with you, should be separated, since the topic was brought up in what i thought were more philosophically general terms...

...comma abuse.  :oops:

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:06:17 PM
verily.
sry.
it was more a comment on discussing prostitution free of the baggage of trafficking etc.  which may be seen as splitting semantic hairs, but which, i agree with you, should be separated, since the topic was brought up in what i thought were more philosophically general terms...

...comma abuse.  :oops:

No, ok, got you now, and agree.

I'm posting tired. Will get to sleep and rejoin convo in morning.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Jenne

Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 02:57:19 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 02:34:38 PM
I guess as I said, our own experiences and opinions are going to vary on this to a large degree.  But you can't have one side of this issue, I believe, without the other.  To dismiss it as wholly unplausible and not the main of the whole theme is beyond disingenuous.  I believe, Placid Dingo, your more benign view of those who work as prostitutes and those who use them seems to be rather more or less...in the minority? for lack of a better word. And I understand the need to not villify the john nor codify a prostitute as dirty, rotten people...but in the main, there's nothing to be upheld about either state. (eta: because society tries hard to perpetuate this theme, not as strongly on the side of the john, mind you, more towards the women walking the streets)

Because the so-called freedom to sell yourself in the end is more of a jail, and the so-called freedom to buy someone for a while makes you their jailor.

I guess the simplist I can put it is that I do not believe that if you're talking about prostitution you may as well be discussing human trafficking. I think the two things are so different that what we say about one does not by default relate to the other.

I have views on both, and they differ wildly. I do acknowledge the overlap, but still feel that we should have codes and operations in place to ensure legal prostitution does not support human trafficking, rather than treating them as one and the same.

Not meaning to be a smart arse, but I'm not sure what you're saying I'm calling implausible.

Also, by my benign views, do you mean my view that (afaik) Cain's scenario is, at least in my country, atypical of prostitution in general? Or do you feel I'm being generally supportive of prostitution?

I think your ability to separate what keeps the generation of selling sex as an occupation and those who use it from the evils that come along with it is not a majority view and may minimize the dangers people put themselves in while pursuing this act in either buying or selling.

I agree with those who are saying you cannot separate the bad from the so-called good here, given that the good isn't even ALL THAT GOOD.  And may not really even exist except in the minds of those who believe it's all a-ok.

Again, without villainizing either party outright, I just think it's turning a blind eye to remove one side inherently from the other.  Feminism, humanism, everything aside--the collateral damage of this practice in the world as it exists today just includes too much brutality and malice to be ignored.  And this is even in the most benign of circumstances where it's used.

Anna Mae Bollocks

The sex industry seems to fuck everybody up, period. I've known women who only danced in tittie flops, didn't prostitute, and they were fucked up, never had their own place to stay, chronic drug use...look at Anna Nichole Smith, didn't she start at Rick's Cabaret in Houston? That's the "high class" place, not some sleaze joint...she did Playboy, all top-of-the-line stuff and SHE was even fucked up.

I had a neighbor once who was a former escort. She was on crack.

Nobody can force themselves to do any of this shit and not expect to be damaged by it somehow.

Paradoxically, I'd legalize everything, just to make it safer for these women. But it sucks.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Elder Iptuous

i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing?  :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing?  :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)

Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg.  Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do.  Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.

Seriously.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

EK WAFFLR

When it comes to stripping, I think that if you're not an exhibitionist, who REALLy enjoys showing off, that line of work will eventually destroy you.
"At first I lifted weights.  But then I asked myself, 'why not people?'  Now everyone runs for the fjord when they see me."


Horribly Oscillating Assbasket of Deliciousness
[/b]

Jenne

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 01, 2011, 03:28:03 PM
The sex industry seems to fuck everybody up, period. I've known women who only danced in tittie flops, didn't prostitute, and they were fucked up, never had their own place to stay, chronic drug use...look at Anna Nichole Smith, didn't she start at Rick's Cabaret in Houston? That's the "high class" place, not some sleaze joint...she did Playboy, all top-of-the-line stuff and SHE was even fucked up.

I had a neighbor once who was a former escort. She was on crack.

Nobody can force themselves to do any of this shit and not expect to be damaged by it somehow.

Paradoxically, I'd legalize everything, just to make it safer for these women. But it sucks.

Stella, I am on board with your views here, I think--esp the legalization.  All of my experience and those I've read about, seen, heard, etc., viewed in documentaries very much hold out according to what you've personally seen as well.

I know of few instances where this shit wasn't fucked up six ways to Sunday.  Now that *could* be just anecdotal fodder...but I'm thinking, no.

Jenne

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing?  :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)

Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg.  Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do.  Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.

Seriously.

Fictional Hollywood Scenario--HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing?  :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)

I'm sure she wouldn't have felt the need to gobble pills like fucking M&M's if her life had taken a different trajectory.  
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Elder Iptuous

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing?  :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)

Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg.  Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do.  Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.

Seriously.

eh...
I'm just bantering.  (annoyingly, i guess.)
it is obvious based on even a cursory examination that prostitution and decline into wretchedness are tightly correlated.  speculating whether this is an inherent and inextricable link is just prattle that perhaps isn't worth a damn...
:shrug:

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 04:04:32 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing?  :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)

Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg.  Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do.  Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.

Seriously.

eh...
I'm just bantering.  (annoyingly, i guess.)
it is obvious based on even a cursory examination that prostitution and decline into wretchedness are tightly correlated.  speculating whether this is an inherent and inextricable link is just prattle that perhaps isn't worth a damn...
:shrug:

Numbers. Porn, for instance, you have Traci Lords, and OTOH you have all these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLCijCgh_0g
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

As long as we live in a society where it's possible to make money by selling other people's bodies, prostitution and human coercion and trafficking will be intertwined. Dingo, you are delusional if you think that human trafficking for prostitution is not an issue in Australia... what rock have you been under? Wasn't that just part of a recent discussion? http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/australia

Legalization is the only reasonable way to minimize/reduce trafficking, but it won't solve the problem, especially with regards to child trafficking.

This thread, of course, is not about that, but about whether a man who visits prostitutes has a mentality that is compatible with feminism... however, it's served its purpose, so derail away.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Elder Iptuous

i guess it depends on the specific definition of feminism being used?
prostitution is inherently a gender based inequality in a sense, so if absolute equality is required for the feminism at hand, it seems to me that the answer would be no.

Jenne

Um...there are MANY male prostitutes out there.  Maybe just as many as female.

But like the rape thread, in our society, we don't talk about male prostitution as if it's a so-called hard fact of life, like we don't talk about male rape.

You should visit my husband's peds office a bit, Ippie.  You'd see some stuff that would uncurl your hair.  Boys who start out at 14 prostituting themselves to the little old people (most of whom are vets)  in mobile home parks.

The world is a seamier place than we like to admit.