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The homeopathy one was pulled but...

Started by Trivial, August 11, 2014, 11:50:32 PM

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Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"

My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments

I didn't know Google worked like that.  Explains all the pornography though.

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Nothing explains that much pornography.

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Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"

My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments

:lulz:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


MMIX

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"

My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments

I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.

I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.

"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"

My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments

I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.

I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.


I agree that overuse and misuse of antibiotics is a problem, and the prevalence of such is not helping in the medical arms race to combat rapidly evolving antibiotic resistant disease. But I don't think it follows that alternative therapies such as reiki and homeopathy are the answer. Instead, how about investing in more teachers of math and science and making it possible for people of any socio-economic background to pursue careers in the medical field?
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

P3nT4gR4m

For the record, Google is analysing and learning everything about you. If you're  tinfoil hat wearer then my advice would be - steer well clear - this is not the droid you're looking for. I, on the other hand, am more than happy for my exocortex to know me better than I do. It's not much use to me otherwise.

And, yeah - overprescription of antibiotics has led us to A) piss weak immune systems/ herd immunity and B) superstrains of drug resistant pathogens but we're currently so close to programmable, targetted molecules with a rapid turnaroud that it's going to cease to be an issue in the next couple of years. Antibiotics did a lot of good for humanity, back in the day. We're locked in an arms race. It'll lalways be that way.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
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MMIX

[quote author=N̠̳̘͓̠͓ͦ ͔ ̓̽̃ ̳̦̳͗E̮̜̱͇͗̿ͭ ̮̽̇ͮͦ ̞̲̼̪ ͇̳̤̥͖͕̀ͬ͊T̰ link=topic=36760.msg1355634#msg1355634 date=1409773524]
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"

My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments

I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.

I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.


I agree that overuse and misuse of antibiotics is a problem, and the prevalence of such is not helping in the medical arms race to combat rapidly evolving antibiotic resistant disease. But I don't think it follows that alternative therapies such as reiki and homeopathy are the answer. Instead, how about investing in more teachers of math and science and making it possible for people of any socio-economic background to pursue careers in the medical field?
[/quote]

Sounds good. Except that without massive investment from the For Profit Pharmaceuticals Juggernaut or shuffling cash from the Miltary budgets of the Mine's Bigger Than Yours politicos of the world no amount of newly trained medical researchers are going to make a difference. They will follow the money because that is where the research gets done, at the cash point- the point where the cash will generate profit. If we are hugely lucky,  then there may be a new family of antibacterials develped before we collapse back into medieval helplessness, but if there is then we will frankly have been more lucky than we deserve to be.

I don't think anyone is claiming [well nobody rational anyhow] that "Woo" however you care to define it is the answer to our problems. It seems to me that refusing to accept whatever benefits - and there are some demonstrable benefits - from things like reiki or homeopathy or any other ridiculous / superstitious / eccentric practices which trigger the placebo effect is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I hope that someone puts the effort into studying the placebo effect and harnessing its results, but lets just repeat this once more for effevt:- there is no money for Big Pharma in sugar pills and touchy-feelin therapies so don't expect them to either help or not hinder any research efforts.

ps it just occurred to me what a weird nickname Big Pharma is. Its one of those homonym things but it sounds likeBig Farmer.

also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?


"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

MMIX

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 09:15:59 PM
For the record, Google is analysing and learning everything about you. If you're  tinfoil hat wearer then my advice would be - steer well clear - this is not the droid you're looking for. I, on the other hand, am more than happy for my exocortex to know me better than I do. It's not much use to me otherwise.

And, yeah - overprescription of antibiotics has led us to A) piss weak immune systems/ herd immunity and B) superstrains of drug resistant pathogens but we're currently so close to programmable, targetted molecules with a rapid turnaroud that it's going to cease to be an issue in the next couple of years. Antibiotics did a lot of good for humanity, back in the day. We're locked in an arms race. It'll lalways be that way.

You know that thing that Nigel keeps saying about not assuming that you are always getting the full picture when you read edited highlights about cutting edge research? Well I agree with her. Double ditto if you [generically you not you personally] are reading actual research papers unless you are the target audience. The only bit of that that I actually agree with is the arms race bit. Like I said up-thread I'm really glad I'm closer to the grave than the cradle.
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

#83
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from:  N ~̴̰̗̅͌E̽͑ͪ҉͉̻̞̟͇̻̟~̨̞̲̮̜͆ͮ̄͆ͮ͐ T on September 03, 2014, 08:45:24 PM
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"

My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments

I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.

I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.


I agree that overuse and misuse of antibiotics is a problem, and the prevalence of such is not helping in the medical arms race to combat rapidly evolving antibiotic resistant disease. But I don't think it follows that alternative therapies such as reiki and homeopathy are the answer. Instead, how about investing in more teachers of math and science and making it possible for people of any socio-economic background to pursue careers in the medical field?

Sounds good. Except that without massive investment from the For Profit Pharmaceuticals Juggernaut or shuffling cash from the Miltary budgets of the Mine's Bigger Than Yours politicos of the world no amount of newly trained medical researchers are going to make a difference. They will follow the money because that is where the research gets done, at the cash point- the point where the cash will generate profit. If we are hugely lucky,  then there may be a new family of antibacterials develped before we collapse back into medieval helplessness, but if there is then we will frankly have been more lucky than we deserve to be.

I don't think anyone is claiming [well nobody rational anyhow] that "Woo" however you care to define it is the answer to our problems. It seems to me that refusing to accept whatever benefits - and there are some demonstrable benefits - from things like reiki or homeopathy or any other ridiculous / superstitious / eccentric practices which trigger the placebo effect is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I hope that someone puts the effort into studying the placebo effect and harnessing its results, but lets just repeat this once more for effevt:- there is no money for Big Pharma in sugar pills and touchy-feelin therapies so don't expect them to either help or not hinder any research efforts.

ps it just occurred to me what a weird nickname Big Pharma is. Its one of those homonym things but it sounds likeBig Farmer.


I see we're actually in agreement for the most part.

I just think that validating the legitimacy of woo-based therapy further erodes interest in grappling with Big Pharma. It seems like the more people get psychologically invested in woo, the more imperative it becomes for them to reject anything based in science. It also makes it easier to dismiss critics of pharmaceutical profiteers as cranks and whackos.

I do think that with vastly increased access to education that people will see Big Pharma for what it is—a predatory leech on society. I'm not talking about just funneling people into the existing industry, I'm talking about people having enough education to understand how their getting screwed out of their money and changing the system.

Placebo based therapy does hold a lot of promise, but it still involves sorting out a very tangled mess of ethical questions in administering it, even assuming that we could fix the profiteering disaster.

edit: testing to fix broken quote function
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ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?

8)

My new username also broke the quote function, but I think I fixed it while retaining its terrible glory.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

MMIX

#85
[quote author=N ~̝͓̙͍̫͈̪̠͌̀͘͝E͛ͬͪͩ͆ͦ͑͏̘~̴͇͇̳̲͈͙͚̜͑͆͆̃̄ͯ̍̚͠ T link=topic=36760.msg1355644#msg1355644 date=1409778503]
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?

8)

My new username also broke the quote function, but I think I fixed it while retaining its terrible glory.
[/quote]
Terrible Glory!!!! hmmmm yep that has a nice ring to it. Also I don't want to sound alarmist but bits of your avatar new username seem to be crawling out and curling up in strange places . . . 

Anyhow, the problem I have with people reacting to the whole concept of "woo" is that you can hear the sepulchral clang of minds closing or the fairy farts of minds opening so they are dribbling out of folks ears. I normally regard LMNO for example as quite an open-minded sort of cove. But upthread his reaction to "woo" indicates a real blind spot to potentialities. Until the jury is finally in and we have a definitive verdict on just what the hell is happening when people get positive benefits from "therapies" which aren't scientifically explicable there has to be enough wiggleroom to allow us to actually investigate fully. That's all I'm saying. And it seems to me [YMMV] that we need not so be so quick to scoff until we actually have the evidence we need to be sure we are not missing something important but which is maybe not obvious or maybe counter intuitive.

Actually I've been thinking about this whole "woo" thing and the thing that really makes me uncomfortable is if there actually needs to be "woo" to make the effect work. If that turns out to be the case then I guess all bets are off

edit for getting mucking fords wuddled
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

LMNO

For fuck's sake.

Look at the functional aspect of Reiki.  Acknowledge the suffering of others.  Help them relax.  Pay attention to them.  Get them to pay attention to their own bodies.  Create a somatic feedback loop.  Encourage their positive feelings.  All of this has been shown to improve the mental and physical health of patients.

PLEASE NOTE NONE OF THE ABOVE NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED BY PHANTOM MYSTICAL ENERGIES, NONE OF WHICH ARE EVEN BOTHERED TO BE EXPLAINED OR EVEN TESTED BY SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES, CHANNELED BY A GURU THAT COST SHITLOADS OF CASH.


It's kind of weird I have to explain that.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 11:25:30 PM
Quote from: N E̽͑ͪ҉͉̻̞̟͇̻̟ T on September 03, 2014, 10:08:23 PM
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?

8)

My new username also broke the quote function, but I think I fixed it while retaining its terrible glory.
Terrible Glory!!!! hmmmm yep that has a nice ring to it. Also I don't want to sound alarmist but bits of your avatar seem to be crawling out and curling up in strange places . . . 

Anyhow, the problem I have with people reacting to the whole concept of "woo" is that you can hear the sepulchral clang of minds closing or the fairy farts of minds opening so they are dribbling out of folks ears. I normally regard LMNO for example as quite an open-minded sort of cove. But upthread his reaction to "woo" indicates a real blind spot to potentialities. Until the jury is finally in and we have a definitive verdict on just what the hell is happening when people get positive benefits from "therapies" which aren't scientifically explicable there has to be enough wiggleroom to allow us to actually investigate fully. That's all I'm saying. And it seems to me [YMMV] that we need not so be so quick to scoff until we actually have the evidence we need to be sure we are not missing something important but which is maybe not obvious or maybe counter intuitive.

Actually I've been thinking about this whole "woo" thing and the thing that really makes me uncomfortable is if there actually needs to be "woo" to make the effect work. If that turns out to be the case then I guess all bets are off


I think we agree, in that woo methods may provide tangible measurable benefits through non-woo biological processes that we don't understand. I think the risk is getting so psychologically invested in woo beliefs that the consequences can be far costlier than the benefits, e.g., believing the woo worked when it hadn't and a treatable condition deteriorates beyond repair. Chapel perilous and all that jazz.

One of my biology professors from a long while back said something that stuck with me. It was something to the effect of "We know for a fact that cells communicate with one another, but we hardly know how they do it." I don't think it's inconceivable that your thoughts alone can directly affect your biology, probably quite a bit more than just causing changes in mood. And even then, I think there's evidence that the long term aggregate of our moods can have dramatic effects on our organs—stress hormones especially.

I still find the subject absolutely fascinating, though I doubt neuroscience will remotely start to scrape the surface of it in my lifetime.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

MMIX

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 03, 2014, 11:36:44 PM
For fuck's sake.

Look at the functional aspect of Reiki.  Acknowledge the suffering of others.  Help them relax.  Pay attention to them.  Get them to pay attention to their own bodies.  Create a somatic feedback loop.  Encourage their positive feelings.  All of this has been shown to improve the mental and physical health of patients.

PLEASE NOTE NONE OF THE ABOVE NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED BY PHANTOM MYSTICAL ENERGIES, NONE OF WHICH ARE EVEN BOTHERED TO BE EXPLAINED OR EVEN TESTED BY SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES, CHANNELED BY A GURU THAT COST SHITLOADS OF CASH.


It's kind of weird I have to explain that.

Yes, I hear your pain.

also if you weren't too pissed off to actually read it I did say
QuoteActually I've been thinking about this whole "woo" thing and the thing that really makes me
[edit for emphasis] REALLY
Quoteuncomfortable is if there actually needs to be "woo" to make the effect work. If that turns out to be the case then I guess all bets are off

Thing is not everybody sees the world in the way you do. I don't suppose I need to point out to you that you live in a country where somewhere in the region of 80% of your compatriots have an invisible friend who they turn to for succour and relief and who they believe takes an up-close and personal interest in everything they do. The whole "woo" thing is so tightly wound into the structure of life that to try and compartmentalise "woo-based" therapies seems to be like trying to swat a ladybug while there is a hornets nest in the middle of the room.

My mother was a radiographer, my father was an industrial chemist, my cousin is a GP, my uncle was a medical photographer, 3 of my sisters in law are nurses of various specialisms, my aunt was a senior nursing officer involved in hygiene research, I originally trained as a therapeutic radiographer and later as a behavioural scientist. OK, none of us ever tried to knock some scientific sense into Dubya's administration but we are not by nature or training a "woo based" family. Point being, I think you have a tendency to not listen when the whole "woo" thing comes up. So, no, you don't have to explain the scientific shortcomings of reiki, I get it, I hear what you are saying and on some level I totally agree with you. However unless and until we understand the placebo effect the book cannot be closed on these sorts of practices. Or trance healing, or psychic surgery, or the vast range of other weird shit that people believe.
And I think that that is why I call myself discordian. I can look at things with wonder and be intrigued by them without feeling the need to believe in them. I think in the long run that is a pretty sound basis for dealing with the unbelieveable amount of unbelieveable things people have generated
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

MMIX

[quote author=N ·̤̻͉͕̋̀͂ ̰ͦ̀͢E̳̭̻̙̥͖̦̐̔͡ ̷̱̞̠̠̮͎͈·̾̈͗̇ͪ͋ͨ T link=topic=36760.msg1355654#msg1355654 date=1409785215]

I think the risk is getting so psychologically invested in woo ANY beliefs that the consequences can be far costlier than the benefits, e.g., believing the woo X worked when it hadn't and a treatable condition deteriorates beyond repair. Chapel perilous and all that jazz.

[/quote] fixxored!

Now I couldn't agree more. And elevating science to a special position where we refuse to believe that it is anything other than pristine and rational is the most dangerous thing of all. The thing about science is that it is performed by human beings; and we all know what a bunch of hyped-up hominids they are.
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber