The homeopathy one was pulled but...

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I think the risk is getting so psychologically invested in woo ANY beliefs that the consequences can be far costlier than the benefits, e.g., believing the woo X worked when it hadn't and a treatable condition deteriorates beyond repair. Chapel perilous and all that jazz.

fixxored!

Now I couldn't agree more. And elevating science to a special position where we refuse to believe that it is anything other than pristine and rational is the most dangerous thing of all. The thing about science is that it is performed by human beings; and we all know what a bunch of hyped-up hominids they are.

It is a special position, because though imperfect, it's usually the best bet. It's certainly not pristine and perfect, and rife with profiteering scumbags, but when push comes to shove I'm going to see a medical doctor not a witch doctor.

The testable, reproducible nature of science helps catch fuck ups. Woo often necessarily requires not getting a second opinion and requires complete buy-in, explicitly rejecting skeptical inquiry and testing.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I don't suppose I need to point out to you that you live in a country where somewhere in the region of 80% of your compatriots have an invisible friend who they turn to for succour and relief and who they believe takes an up-close and personal interest in everything they do. The whole "woo" thing is so tightly wound into the structure of life that to try and compartmentalise "woo-based" therapies seems to be like trying to swat a ladybug while there is a hornets nest in the middle of the room.

Most major religions don't explicitly forbid skeptical inquiry and testing, while many woo peddlers do.

[MMIX]

I don't suppose I need to point out to you that you live in a country where somewhere in the region of 80% of your compatriots have an invisible friend who they turn to for succour and relief and who they believe takes an up-close and personal interest in everything they do. The whole "woo" thing is so tightly wound into the structure of life that to try and compartmentalise "woo-based" therapies seems to be like trying to swat a ladybug while there is a hornets nest in the middle of the room.

Most major religions don't explicitly forbid skeptical inquiry and testing, while many woo peddlers do.

Yep the Catholic church for example is really committed to skeptical investigations of miracles in its attempt to stop itself making unworthy saints. And the less said about that probably the better. And woo peddlers can be equally dastardly in pursuit of big bucks and reputation. NB I am also including the major religions in that rather broad church of "Woo peddlers". The point I'm trying to make is that the very existence of such a high levels of religious belief worldwide normalises "woo" within societies. Even in Britain where levels of religious affiliation are much lower and we probably seem like a godless desert to the US we still have 60% Xtian 5% Muslim and smaller communities of Sikhs, Hindus, Jews & Buddhists. Correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I get from reading the forum is that even discordians seem to regard individual religious practice as just a private thing which is nobody's business but the practitioner's. I see religion as being something which ties individuals into networks of "woo" and hence in my perception is that religion is an intensely social and communal activity. That is the contrast I am trying to highlight, the contrast between the relatively harmless ladybugs. Yes they have poisonous knees and make you a bit uncomfortablew if you are really, really unlucky, but don't get hung up on the ladybug and ignore the hornets nest, cos that fucker is a much more serious prospect.

edit to insert missing word

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.

[Cain]

Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.

What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it.  Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.

But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.

[MMIX]

Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.

What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it.  Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.

But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.

If I was young and looking for a worthwhile area to research the placebo effect would certainly be high on my hit list. Any area which offers both strange AND contradictory has got to be an interesting way to go

[P3nT4gR4m]

I've been saying for years the placebo effect is interesting. It's unfortunate that it manifests in the form of a "gotcha" and is readily dismissed by saying "yes but it's not real, it's just the placebo effect" as if this negates the fact that the patient improved. "Yes his tumor disappeared but it was placebo so it doesn't count"

Would be pretty neat to be able to harness it without the need to hoodwink the recipient.

[MMIX]

I've been saying for years the placebo effect is interesting. It's unfortunate that it manifests in the form of a "gotcha" and is readily dismissed by saying "yes but it's not real, it's just the placebo effect" as if this negates the fact that the patient improved. "Yes his tumor disappeared but it was placebo so it doesn't count"

Would be pretty neat to be able to harness it without the need to hoodwink the recipient.

Amen brother P3nT, preach that truth!

[Faust]

Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.

What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it.  Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.

But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.

I think it's miss-attributed to routine of medication at all. The effect is mental, the cause is with the patient. The act of the conscious mind making the decision to get better, triggers subroutines associated with self repair in mind that otherwise may be dulled or confused or prioritizing other tasks (like worrying about work when you should be sleeping). I wouldn't even call it a healing process, more of an optimization of the existing healing system.

You push the command to get better from a cold down the chain, the body can do that.
You push the command to get better from a severed leg down the chain and the body is going to look at you funny. You're not getting the leg back but you might get some pain relief out it.

[MMIX]

Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.

What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it.  Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.

But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.

A] I wouldn't even call it a healing process, more of an optimization of the existing healing system.

B] You push the command to get better from a cold down the chain, the body can do that.

C]You push the command to get better from a severed leg down the chain and the body is going to look at you funny. You're not getting the leg back but you might get some pain relief out it.

A]I think you're right about systems optimisation
B]I have a stinking summer cold/fluey thing going on. Maybe I need to learn to program #cos nothing I am doing consciously is making a blind bit of difference
C]And ghost limbs as well maybe

[Junkenstein]

Ever since learning about Ketchum and the Edgewood Arsenal, I'm increasingly suspicious that all this kind of shit is actually being tested anyway, just in case.


I really hope I'm right as that will be a fucking awesome documentary.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

I've been saying for years the placebo effect is interesting. It's unfortunate that it manifests in the form of a "gotcha" and is readily dismissed by saying "yes but it's not real, it's just the placebo effect" as if this negates the fact that the patient improved. "Yes his tumor disappeared but it was placebo so it doesn't count"

Would be pretty neat to be able to harness it without the need to hoodwink the recipient.

Amen brother P3nT, preach that truth!

To me it makes sense. If the patient has a problem that is all in his head, doesn't it make sense that the cure should be also? Not things like broken legs obviously, but for things like anxiety, sometimes all it takes is to shift their mind into a more useful "mode"

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.

Exactly.  Precisely.