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Yet another healthcare topic

Started by LMNO, February 25, 2010, 08:18:57 PM

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LMNO

So, if this has been covered already, I'm sorry and I'll hang my head in shame.


What are the arguments against treating healthcare as a public utility?  Other than the "socialist" thing, of course.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2010, 08:18:57 PM
So, if this has been covered already, I'm sorry and I'll hang my head in shame.


What are the arguments against treating healthcare as a public utility?  Other than the "socialist" thing, of course.

1.  Rich people might have to wait in line with poor people or even people with smudgy skin.

2.  Poor people just know they'll be rich, one day.  Details on how this will occur may be lacking, but it will...if corporations are allowed to run things without the mean old government interfering.

Oh, wait.  No socialism thingies.  Okay.

3.  The government can't run anything, and corporations are infallible.  Banks, for example.

Here's the final analysis, LMNO...People have become conditioned to believe that their best interests are bad, and that they should vote for what's best for the rich, because they have been taught that America is the land of opportunity, and that they will magically be among the rich one day (as mentioned above), and they don't want to fuck it up for when THEY have a Bentley and a 30 room mansion. 

This implies a level of stupidity and gullibility that can only be described as awe-inspiring.  The whole health care debate has taught me that self-governance is a joke, and a failed experiment, because the inherent laziness of domesticated primates prevents them from doing something as basic as identifying their best interests.

My recent illness has convinced me that our "health care" system is utterly unjust, and morally evil...and I was on the good end of the stick.  Had I been unemployed, I'd be dead shortly...and this can and does occur every day.

But what can you do, LMNO?  You can't save people that will attempt to kill you for trying.  It's fucking hopeless, when viewed from a realistic point of view.

Molon Lube

LMNO

Yeah.

I wasn't really surprised at the way this all went down, but the complete embrace of a compassionless stance really got to me.  I mean, even monkeys take care of their tribe.



Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2010, 08:42:31 PM
Yeah.

I wasn't really surprised at the way this all went down, but the complete embrace of a compassionless stance really got to me.  I mean, even monkeys take care of their tribe.

If the dems couldn't pull it off with a supermajority, and they couldn't, then the situation is hopeless.  What's going to happen is that whatever bill finally passes will be a giveaway to health insurance companies, big pharma, or both.

What's really funny about this is that I know a conservatard who makes about $29K/year, who was ranting about how he didn't want to pay for all of this (Yeah, I know, he wouldn't pay a dime in any case, but that's not what Rush told him.).  He was diagnosed with lung cancer last month, and has no health insurance.  He has since learned that the E-room only has to stabilize you, and that no hospital will treat him, because he can't pay and has no assets of sufficient value.

I'd like to feel bad for the guy, I really would...But he was both stupid enough to expound against his own self interest - and heartless enough to condemn poor people to a needless death - so I really can't work up much sympathy for him, despite his rather gruesome upcoming death.  He has finally seen that there's nothing so horrible as drowning because you can't afford the fee for the lifeguard throwing you a life preserver.

He still listens to Rush Limbaugh, incidentally.  People are stupid beyond any hope whatsoever.


Molon Lube

Mangrove

#4
Dok -

Excellent analysis. I really can't add to that other than expressing my frustration at the enormous fur ball of injustice and stupidity that is lodged in America's psychic gullet.

I work in the health care industry and we're assaulted on pretty much a weekly basis with the insanity that is going on. I think calling it a 'health care system' suggests a level of organization and order that it quite blatantly doesn't possess.

One of our clients was treated for breast cancer. She was in the ridiculous and unenviable position of regularly phoning her insurance company and shouting at them. For some reason, this poor lady was required to say to them "I kind of need you to pay this, so I won't DIE!!!"

One of Mrs Mang's clients (she works in the financial field) had a message from a client. He wants to take money from his investments to pay for his chemo. Of course, because he wants X dollars right away, he'll get hit with fees & surrender charges and all manner of other bullshit. So, he's trying to find a way to pay for his medications predicated on the rules of an investment company.

Then there's a good family friend. Her mom's got breast cancer as did quite a number of her relatives. She's in a high risk category. Her doctor told her that she really should get genetic testing done. Genetic testing is very expensive. What is my friend doing? She's waiting a few months for her insurance to renew so she can get the tests done and not get hit with the potential 'pre-existing condition' gimmick.

Today I just had an e-mail from a really cool client who I liked working with. She basically had to stop coming to our office because we're not covered under her insurance....even though she experienced the most amount of relief for her back issue by visiting us. 'Your treatments worked best but I'm going to pay for something that wasn't as effective because without the insurance I wouldn't be able to do anything at all.'

I've got examples like this up the wazoo.

America needs to familiarize itself with the AWFUL TROOTHS:

a) America is not the best country in the world. Consulting any index for health, education, crime, standard of living etc etc etc will repeatedly demonstrate that this assertion is false. (Incidentally, the US like number 37 in the world for health standards)

b) Secondly, why the hell does anyone want to go around boasting that they're the 'best country in the world' anyway? It's completely asinine.

c) American health care is the most expensive in the world but it is not the most effective.

d) Since the 1990's, health care costs have spiraled and the chances of people dying of things they didn't need to die of have likewise risen dramatically.

e) Countries with 'evil socialist' medicine provide pretty decent care. Perfect system? No. But what is? However, you won't mind many Brits for example, who are like one of our neighbors who lost his house because of his wife's hospital costs.

f) America already has a system whereby they pay money to the government to look after them in case something happens. It's called 'Social Security' and 'Medicare'. Duh. Social medicine already exists - it's just very small.

g) Just because a country has nationalized health care doesn't mean that rich people would have to wait in lines. There's plenty of private health care in the UK if you want & can pay for it (especially when it comes to Dentistry)

h) ARGHAGHGAGGHHHH......just fucking ARGHGHGHHGHHHH   :argh!:
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

LMNO

The UK has dentistry?


I call bullshit.

Mangrove

What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Doktor Howl

Mang, nothing you said is unreasonable.  But you don't have a microphone to bloviate into, so you have no credibility whatsoever in America.

That's the sad fact...if you aren't a celebrity, no amount of common fucking sense or facts will get anyone to listen to you.  And seeing as how celebrities are now - and have been for decades - created entities, generated by the people that can afford to do so, the message people receive will be the message in the interests of the rich.

An example of how hilarious this is, is when Rush Limbaugh had his heart scare a few months ago.  Days later, he was on the radio blathering about how he received excellent care with no health insurance.  He didn't bother reminding his audience that he's rich, of course...and the "Ditto, Rush!" calls poured in for hours.

This whole issue is a case of the herd thinning itself.  Unfortunately, it is happening based on non-real criteria.

Molon Lube

Mangrove

Dok,

To magnify the absurdity:

One of the financial planners in Mrs Mang's office is Canadian. A well off, Limbaugh loving, Canadian.

So he was about to read aloud what he thought was one of the many wingnut emails he recieves to people in the office. But he stopped mid way through because the missive was pro and not anti the health care bill. Thus he has to back pedal quickly.

Dumbass: Oopss!! Ok...I'm not going to read that.
Mrs Mang: You started it. You mean to tell me that it's right that Mr X is struggling to pay for his meds and his trying to take money from his account?
DA: Uhh...No. But I don't agree with Obama.
Mrs Mang: YOU CAN'T VOTE BECAUSE YOU'RE CANADIAN. DUDE! YOU GUYS ALREADY HAVE HEALTHCARE!!!
DA: Uh...well I live here.
Mrs Mang:  :x

This jackass is an ardent supporter (Republican) of a political system that he can't participate in. But it doesn't matter because he's rich and if he wasn't rich he could fuck off back up to the Great White North and still get health care.
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Dok,

To magnify the absurdity:

One of the financial planners in Mrs Mang's office is Canadian. A well off, Limbaugh loving, Canadian.

Having grown up in Canada, and living in snowbird land, let me assure you that stupidity is far from unknown in the trackless tundra up North.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
So he was about to read aloud what he thought was one of the many wingnut emails he recieves to people in the office. But he stopped mid way through because the missive was pro and not anti the health care bill. Thus he has to back pedal quickly.

He reads his wingnuttery out loud and you let him live?

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Dumbass: Oopss!! Ok...I'm not going to read that.
Mrs Mang: You started it. You mean to tell me that it's right that Mr X is struggling to pay for his meds and his trying to take money from his account?
DA: Uhh...No. But I don't agree with Obama.
Mrs Mang: YOU CAN'T VOTE BECAUSE YOU'RE CANADIAN. DUDE! YOU GUYS ALREADY HAVE HEALTHCARE!!!
DA: Uh...well I live here.
Mrs Mang:  :x

This jackass is an ardent supporter (Republican) of a political system that he can't participate in. But it doesn't matter because he's rich and if he wasn't rich he could fuck off back up to the Great White North and still get health care.

And this is the essence of the middle class republican:  "Fuck you, I got mine." 

You can add, "Fuck you, I don't care and you can't MAKE me care."  Aggressive apathy.

This is why I hate people.
Molon Lube

Mangrove

In case you want to know how depressing the nature of 'manufactured celebrity' is, read the following:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/arts/television/24idol.html?no_interstitial


WARNING - CONTAINS INFORMATION DETRIMENTAL TO PEOPLE WHO LIKE MUSIC AND/OR CONSIDER THEMSELVES SERIOUS MUSICIANS
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Mangrove

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2010, 09:14:41 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Dok,

To magnify the absurdity:

One of the financial planners in Mrs Mang's office is Canadian. A well off, Limbaugh loving, Canadian.

Having grown up in Canada, and living in snowbird land, let me assure you that stupidity is far from unknown in the trackless tundra up North.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
So he was about to read aloud what he thought was one of the many wingnut emails he recieves to people in the office. But he stopped mid way through because the missive was pro and not anti the health care bill. Thus he has to back pedal quickly.

He reads his wingnuttery out loud and you let him live?

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Dumbass: Oopss!! Ok...I'm not going to read that.
Mrs Mang: You started it. You mean to tell me that it's right that Mr X is struggling to pay for his meds and his trying to take money from his account?
DA: Uhh...No. But I don't agree with Obama.
Mrs Mang: YOU CAN'T VOTE BECAUSE YOU'RE CANADIAN. DUDE! YOU GUYS ALREADY HAVE HEALTHCARE!!!
DA: Uh...well I live here.
Mrs Mang:  :x

This jackass is an ardent supporter (Republican) of a political system that he can't participate in. But it doesn't matter because he's rich and if he wasn't rich he could fuck off back up to the Great White North and still get health care.

And this is the essence of the middle class republican:  "Fuck you, I got mine." 

You can add, "Fuck you, I don't care and you can't MAKE me care."  Aggressive apathy.

This is why I hate people.

* I didn't wish to imply there wasn't Canadian stupidity. I grew up (partly) in St Johns.

* If I had the money to hire an employment lawyer, it's my dream for Mrs Mang's office to be turned into a scene of devastation that would make the most devoted Roman centurion throw up in his mouth a little. My biggest cash cow being the 20 minute phone tirade that Mrs Mang was subjected to when one of the planners did his 'Obama's nothing but a fucking nigger' speech. He was so mad that he then slammed down the phone, called someone else and then started up again.

What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:16:15 PM
In case you want to know how depressing the nature of 'manufactured celebrity' is, read the following:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/arts/television/24idol.html?no_interstitial


WARNING - CONTAINS INFORMATION DETRIMENTAL TO PEOPLE WHO LIKE MUSIC AND/OR CONSIDER THEMSELVES SERIOUS MUSICIANS

HAW!  This beats Payola:

Quote from: NY TimesTo promote it, Disney paid Mr. Allen $100,000 to turn to a camera and shout, "I'm going to Disney World" after winning the competition and to visit the park, according to the contracts. He stood to earn another $100,000 for spending a day filming scripted dialogue segments for use in the attraction and for taping a vocal performance for the Walt Disney World Christmas Parade television show.

I want to puke on my fucking boots. 
Molon Lube

Mangrove

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2010, 09:23:13 PM

I want to puke on my fucking boots. 

You were warned. I used capslock and everything.

Actually, this reminds me of rant I'm brewing. Will stick it in 'Or Kill Me' if it formulates properly.
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:21:17 PM

* I didn't wish to imply there wasn't Canadian stupidity. I grew up (partly) in St Johns.

Me, too.  McDougal Street, then Winnepeg Street.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:21:17 PM
* If I had the money to hire an employment lawyer, it's my dream for Mrs Mang's office to be turned into a scene of devastation that would make the most devoted Roman centurion throw up in his mouth a little. My biggest cash cow being the 20 minute phone tirade that Mrs Mang was subjected to when one of the planners did his 'Obama's nothing but a fucking nigger' speech. He was so mad that he then slammed down the phone, called someone else and then started up again.

Holy fuck.  You could probably get someone pro-bono for that.

One of my mechanics started that shit, and I told him to shut the fuck up and get back to work before I fired his racist ass for cause.  I haven't had to deal with it since.  That mechanic hasn't spoken to me about anything but work since, and I couldn't be happier about it.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 25, 2010, 09:25:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2010, 09:23:13 PM

I want to puke on my fucking boots. 

You were warned. I used capslock and everything.

Actually, this reminds me of rant I'm brewing. Will stick it in 'Or Kill Me' if it formulates properly.

Can't wait.
Molon Lube