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Zen

Started by Slarti, June 21, 2004, 05:33:48 PM

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Slarti

i have taken it upon myself to learn the ways of zen. any help whatsoever would be appreciated. as of now, i have no idea how to start.

Lister

don't drink yoghurt
When I was a little man
Playdough came in a little can
I was Star Wars' biggest fan
Now I'm stuck without a plan
GI Joe was an action man
Shaggy drove the mystery van
Devo was my favorite band
Take me back to my happy land

slarti

i'll keep that in mind, thanks.

gnimbley

Quote from: Slartibartfasti have taken it upon myself to learn the ways of zen. any help whatsoever would be appreciated. as of now, i have no idea how to start.

Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, Compiled by Paul Reps, several editions, probably available at the library or a used book store.

Slarti

thanks much, the book looks great. i ordered it.

Iron Sulfide

Quote from: Slartibartfasti have taken it upon myself to learn the ways of zen. any help whatsoever would be appreciated. as of now, i have no idea how to start.

the Ways Of Zen are but naught,
when you seak, you shall not find;
when you listen, all shall be silent;
when you smell, only vaccuum awaits.

zen is in the moment. you will not find zen while you are questing for it.

kinda like Magick. basic principal is that you have to stop thinking about
the spell you've cast, and forget that you cast it, forget even what the
goal you were after was, and then the magick can start doing its stuff.

Zen, or Ch'an, is basically the same as Taoism, with a different
decorator.

Zen is Fnord; Fnord is Zen.

in the wrods of bruce lee:
"Before i learned the art [martial arts], a punch was just a punch...
after i learned the art, a punch was more than a punch...
now that i understand the art, a punch is just a punch..."

zen is just this: it has no "Ways", for it is The Way. and The Way is
in fact All Ways.

here are some decent zen links:

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/

http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/
(this one's good for koans...get a randomly generated koan)

http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html
(more koans)
Ya' stupid Yank.

DJRubberducky

I rather liked this link on the 3rd site you referenced:

Quote from: AshidaKim.comSome Koans take the form of questions, like the one that asks, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound?" There is no "right" answer to this question. It can be argued for years from either perspective, yes or no. BUT, to the Ninja there is at least one other answer. It matters not at all whether the tree makes a sound or not. What is important is that it has fallen.

Further, not all Koans come from Japan. One example is the famous psychological test: "Is the glass half full or half empty?" The Ninja is not limited to these two choices, because he is aware of this ploy to see if he is optimistic (half full) or pessimistic (half empty). Therefore, the Ninja uses an option that seldom occurs to other people: The glass is too large for the amount of water contained therein. Thus, it is neither half full nor half empty. And, there are many other "answers" equally as correct. The "trick" is to imagine them and exercise the mind. That is what makes them fun, and useful.

Learn not only to "read between the lines" but also "within the words" of each of these examples. There is always more than meets the eye.
- DJRubberducky
Quote from: LMNODJ's post is sort of like those pills you drop into a glass of water, and they expand into a dinosaur, or something.

Black sheep are still sheep.

Guido Finucci

Quote from: AshidaKim.comSome Koans take the form of questions, like the one that asks, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound?" There is no "right" answer to this question. It can be argued for years from either perspective, yes or no.

I disagree - the is actually a 'right' answer to this question. The right answer is 'yes' and is derived from the technical definition of sound (with certain, reasonable assumptions like the forest has an atmosphere).

The illuminating thing about this (now uninteresting koan, IMO) is that just about everyone's intuitive response to the answer is something along the lines of, "sure, but that isn't the point". If anything, it is that realisation that is the point.

Slarti

okay, how about the parable from RAW's 'quantum psychology'? the first chapter?

hold on, i'll type it up.

there we go:


A Parable About a Parable

A young American named Simon Moon, studying Zen in the Zendo (Zen School) at the new Old Lompoc House in Lompoc, California, made the mistake of reading Franz Kafka's The Trial. This sinister novel, combined with Zen training, proved too much for poor Simon. He became obsessed, intellectually and emotionally, with the strange parable about the door of the Law which Kafka inserts near the end of his story. Simon found Kafka's fable so disturbing, indeed, that it ruined his meditations, scattered his wits, and distracted him from his study of the Sutras.
Somewhat condensed, Kafka's parable goes as follows:


A man comes to the door of the Law, seeking admittance. The guard refused to allow him to pass the door, but says that if he waits long enough, maybe, someday in the uncertain future, he might gain admittance. The man waits and waits and grows older; he tries to bribe the guard, who takes his money but still refuses to let him through the door; the man sells all his possessions to get money to offer more bribes, which the guard accepts--but still does not allow him to enter. The guard always explains, on taking ezch new bribe, "I only do this so that you will not abandon hope entirely."
Eventually, the man becomes old and ill, and knows that he will soon die. In his last few moments he summons the energy to ask a question that has puzzed him over the years. "I have been told," he says to the guard, "that the Law exists for all. Why then does it happen that, in all the years I have sat here waiting, nobody else has ever come to the door of the Law?"
"This door," the guard says, "has been made only for you. And now I am going to close it forever." And he slams the door as the man dies.



The more Simon brooded on this allegory, or joke, or puzzle, the more he felt that he could never understand Zen until he first understood this strange tale. If the door existed only for that man, why could he not enter? If the builders posted a guard to keep the man out, why did they also leave the door temptingly open? Why did the guard close the previously open door, when the man had become too old to attempt to rush past him and enter? Did the Buddhist doctrine of dharma (law) have anything in common with this parable?
Did the door of the Law represent the Byzantine bureaucracy that exists in vurtually every modern government, making the whole story a political satire, such as a minor bureaucrat like Kafka might have devised in his subversive off-duty hours? Or did the Law represent God, as some commentators claim, and, in the case, did Kafka intend to parody religion or to defend its divine Mystery obliquely? Did the guard who took bribes but gave nothing but empty hope in return represent the clergy, or the human intellect in general, always feasting on shadows in the absence of real Final Answers?
Eventually, near breakdown from sheer mental fatigue, Simon went to hs roshi (Zen teacher) and told Kafka's story of the man who waited at the door of the Law--the door that existed only for him but would not admit him, and was closed when death would no longer allow him to enter. "Please," Simon begged, "explain this Dark Parable to me."
"I will explain it," the roshi said, "if you will follow me into the meditation hall."
Simon followed the teacher to the door of the meditation hall. When they got there, the teacher stepped inside quickly, turned, and slammed the door in Simon's face.
At that moment, Simon experienced Awakening.

Slarti

on a second note, is the whole point of all the parables to show you that everyone gets different meanings from the same things, life is open to interpretation, etc?

because there are all those parables that after you read them make NO SENSE AT ALL, but look like they should, and at the end they say 'and therefore was he enlightened'- do zen monks REALLY get enlightenend be things that make no sense?

DAMN, i'm such A FUCKING GREYFACE! oh well.

edit: http://www.barbelith.com/topic/11938  has come up with a lot of good interpretations for RAWs parable, reinforcing what i stated in the first paragraph.

gnimbley

Quote from: Guido Finucci
Quote from: AshidaKim.comSome Koans take the form of questions, like the one that asks, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound?" There is no "right" answer to this question. It can be argued for years from either perspective, yes or no.

I disagree - the is actually a 'right' answer to this question. The right answer is 'yes' and is derived from the technical definition of sound (with certain, reasonable assumptions like the forest has an atmosphere).

WRONG!

The "right" answer is have another cookie.

Guido Finucci

Quote from: gnimbleyThe "right" answer is have another cookie.

Roshi, you truly have the Zen. <bows>

MaxwellsPrahna

Slarti,
I have to say I am as much in the dark about 'what' zen is as you (everyone), despite study.
However I've read that the central part of zen is doing the zen, and to do this (at its basic level) is to do zazen.

1 sit
2 count your breath (in out = 1), counting from one to ten then back again.
(breath normaly)

10-20 minutes twice a day for us western minded people.

Bella

Counting breaths is good.

I use a slightly different count than Maxwell, but the principle is the same.
I breathe in to the count of four.....hold my breath to the count of four....
breathe out to the count of four.....hold my breath to the count of four, etc.

Twice a day, everyday. At least.
just like in a dream
you'll open your mouth to scream
and you won't make a sound

you can't believe your eyes
you can't believe your ears
you can't believe your friends
you can't believe you're here

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Slartibartfasti have taken it upon myself to learn the ways of zen. any help whatsoever would be appreciated. as of now, i have no idea how to start.

Well, I *could* always hit you with a stick when you ask questions.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.