Principia Discordia

I don't much care for the pictures, I mean the first one is a moped not a bike.

Apart from that it is pretty good, but it doesn't seem to flow right, may be the pictures, can't actually put my finger on it.

Its like a picture book.

Unfortunatly it doesn't flow right with my browser because I can't just PGDN through it.

Oh, I get that, it's just that it doesn't flow for me, and some of the pictures just seem like they were put in there just for the sake of a picture without relating enough.

I read it over without having the pictures loaded and much preferred it that way, just my opinion though

I shamelessly ripped the idea from Tony Pierce (http://www.tonypierce.com/2002/12/1225/). But I was too lazy to set up the html and hosting. I guess using a separate page for each picture is a vital part of a photo essay - looking over it again this morning it does suffer from jumble and confusion. The text came first, and the pictures were added on to express alternate meanings - which is why I thought of it as a "rant" rather than media or bring'n'brag.

Thanks for the feedback!

l liked it up until paris Hilton, then the flow and pics and how they relate all degenerated I'm afraid.

If your going to use pics go for something shorter.. might have more impact.

I enjoyed it. Good work!

I think the wording below each image is just far enough of a stretch for a description of each photo that focus turns to how the words relate to the pictures rather than how they relate to each other.  That combined with the fact that that the images themselves have no cohesion makes it all disjointed.  I do like the idea.

Quote from: fictionpuss sans images
I saw a guy on a motorcycle today.
He looked kinda cool.
I wish I had done that when I was younger.
Now I just avoid recklessness and I tell myself there are plenty of safe ways to have fun.
But isn't the danger the essential ingredient of the whole experience?
Why would I want to chew the wrapper and throw away the candy?
If we let concerns over our own mortality control our experiences, then those concerns inevitably make us stupider.
If your stupidity gets you killed, then society doesn't mourn your loss for very long.
If you survive because you added something new to the mix, then society benefits.
Go on kid, make Darwin proud.
But Fuck Society.
A society which has not found a way to make the bargain mutually beneficial does not deserve my devotion.
It's learned some neat tricks, but it is still young and stupid.
It's still too early to serve society as a God.
And it's still too early to let it make childish mistakes of its own choosing.
And Lo! God came down from the Heavens for one week.
She healed the sick, performed miracles, and proved herself to All.
She baptised a willing planet into her new Global Unified Religion.
But when she granted Larry King an exclusive interview, the people saw she was a vapid idiot.
This changed nothing.
They just prayed slightly harder when she left them all alone.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on August 08, 2009, 09:13:53 PM
I think the wording below each image is just far enough of a stretch for a description of each photo that focus turns to how the words relate to the pictures rather than how they relate to each other.  That combined with the fact that that the images themselves have no cohesion makes it all disjointed.  I do like the idea.

Thanks, I did steal the idea quite shamelessly. Maybe I'll try again on another subject with the one-page-per-picture approach, and try not to intentionally muddy up the flow by supporting multiple interpretations.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on August 08, 2009, 09:13:53 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss sans images
I saw a guy on a motorcycle today.
He looked kinda cool.
I wish I had done that when I was younger.
Now I just avoid recklessness and I tell myself there are plenty of safe ways to have fun.
But isn't the danger the essential ingredient of the whole experience?
Why would I want to chew the wrapper and throw away the candy?
If we let concerns over our own mortality control our experiences, then those concerns inevitably make us stupider.
If your stupidity gets you killed, then society doesn't mourn your loss for very long.
If you survive because you added something new to the mix, then society benefits.
Go on kid, make Darwin proud.
But Fuck Society.
A society which has not found a way to make the bargain mutually beneficial does not deserve my devotion.
It's learned some neat tricks, but it is still young and stupid.
It's still too early to serve society as a God.
And it's still too early to let it make childish mistakes of its own choosing.
And Lo! God came down from the Heavens for one week.
She healed the sick, performed miracles, and proved herself to All.
She baptised a willing planet into her new Global Unified Religion.
But when she granted Larry King an exclusive interview, the people saw she was a vapid idiot.
This changed nothing.
They just prayed slightly harder when she left them all alone.

Bolded the conclusion I didn't like. If an immature society can be thought of as equivalent to a child on a tricycle about to go down the rollercoaster, then there is a responsibility there to step in. But the implications of that are dangerously open-ended. Don't Birthers share that same mentality?

I also failed to get back to the original "danger" concept, by suggesting that perhaps the "value of danger" is itself a social construct. The whole God coming down, proving her own existence, proving to be an idiot, but still being worshipped anyway part is - as Pixie O'Fubar noted - disjointed.. primarily because I didn't know what to do with the conclusion in bold, so I opted to end with a poor joke instead ;-)

Does this format perhaps look better?

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/01.jpg) I saw a guy on a motorcycle today.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/02.jpg) He looked kinda cool.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/03.jpg) I wish I had done that when I was younger.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/04.jpg) Now I just avoid recklessness and I tell myself there are plenty of safe ways to have fun.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/05.jpg) But isn't the danger the essential ingredient of the whole experience?

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/06.jpg) Why would I want to chew the wrapper and throw away the candy?

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/07.jpg) If we let concerns over our own mortality control our experiences, then those concerns inevitably make us stupider.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/08.jpg) If your stupidity gets you killed, then society doesn't mourn your loss for very long.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/09.jpg) If you survive because you added something new to the mix, then society benefits.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/10.jpg) Go on kid, make Darwin proud.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/11.jpg) But Fuck Society.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/12.jpg) A society which has not found a way to make the bargain mutually beneficial does not deserve my devotion.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/13.jpg) It's learned some neat tricks, but it is still young and stupid.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/14.jpg) It's still too early to serve society as a God.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/15.jpg) And it's still too early to let it make childish mistakes of its own choosing.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/16.jpg) And Lo! God came down from the Heavens for one week.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/17.jpg) She healed the sick, performed miracles, and proved herself to All.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/18.jpg) She baptised a willing planet into her new Global Unified Religion.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/19.jpg) But when she granted Larry King an exclusive interview, the people saw she was a vapid idiot.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/20.jpg) This changed nothing.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/21.jpg) They just prayed slightly harder when she left them all alone.

I like!

It made me chuckle..  and I thought parts of it were quite poignant, even if it was (as others noted) a little disjointed.

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 08, 2009, 09:59:46 PM
Does this format perhaps look better?

Awesome!! I think that improves upon the original photo-essay (http://www.tonypierce.com/2002/12/1225/) format. I'd probably add a slight spacer between each element, not too much though, because the pictures seem less distracting when you can quickly scan back and catch up on the text. Or in other words - it allows the picture to give an alternate meaning without being cumbersome.

In terms of playing with memetics, it might even allow for two parallel threads of communication.. telling two sides of one story at the same time, which is hard in one-dimensional text. The stream of pictures could tell one facet, and the text another.. and you get the reinforcing effect by linking them together at each step.

That would be fun to experiment with - shouldn't be to hard to construct - I'd be curious to see if it had the effect of jumbling the two concepts, or keeping them separate but with mapping between them.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 08, 2009, 11:00:00 PM

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 08, 2009, 09:59:46 PM
Does this format perhaps look better?

Awesome!! I think that improves upon the original photo-essay (http://www.tonypierce.com/2002/12/1225/) format. I'd probably add a slight spacer between each element, not too much though

true, I'd have done that, but this was a quick search/replace job just to see if it would work. if you insert a (td)    (/td) between each (note the 3 or 4 spaces), you should get a bit of horizontal space.

however by then you might as well make a very wide JPG out of it, so you don't require forum code anymore.

QuoteIn terms of playing with memetics, it might even allow for two parallel threads of communication.. telling two sides of one story at the same time, which is hard in one-dimensional text. The stream of pictures could tell one facet, and the text another.. and you get the reinforcing effect by linking them together at each step.

that's not really to do much with memetics, but I get what you're saying.

I forgot what it was called (but someone recently mentioned it, hope they read this) but there was this guy who wrote a comic about how comics work, I seem to recall even in the context of webcomics. He discusses a lot of the facets that make up graphic stories and the combination of design/layout/graphics and its effect on narrative.

the "pictures tell one story" + "text tells another person's perspective" thing has (naturally) already been done, can't think of any concrete example, but even the simple narrator / protagonist distinction already does it:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/3312926117_7c1a2695d4.jpg)
Little did Jack know, that behind the door
was a hungry pterodactyl."

but it could also involve more complicated things such as the thoughts of a secondary character, or betrayal, or someone setting up a trap.

i dont know if its the same book you're thinking of, but "understanding comics" by scott mcloud is good, has a lot of stuff about ideas of closure and conceptual abstraction etc.  'bin a while since ive read it though

Yeah, Scott McCloud, that was his name, thanks!

Understanding Comics is a very comprehensive analysis, but don't forget about Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner.  It was one of the first major attempts to deconstruct the medium and done by a true master.

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 09, 2009, 12:20:29 AM
true, I'd have done that, but this was a quick search/replace job just to see if it would work. if you insert a (td)    (/td) between each (note the 3 or 4 spaces), you should get a bit of horizontal space.

I really appreciate the effort you put in - you totally changed my perspective on the layout issue - I wouldn't expect you to reformat anything - sorry if I came across as ungrateful!

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 09, 2009, 12:20:29 AM
the "pictures tell one story" + "text tells another person's perspective" thing has (naturally) already been done, can't think of any concrete example, but even the simple narrator / protagonist distinction already does it:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/3312926117_7c1a2695d4.jpg)
Little did Jack know, that behind the door
was a hungry pterodactyl."

but it could also involve more complicated things such as the thoughts of a secondary character, or betrayal, or someone setting up a trap.

I'm not so much interested in originality as doing things which interest me. But what I had in mind seems to be a little different from what you describe. I was thinking more along the lines of taking an issue which almost everybody has an opinion in (e.g. abortion, the Iraq war) then arguing the pros in prose and the cons in pictures. Or rather, the text and the picture would set the scene together, but interpreting the text would argue for, and interpreting the pictures would argue the opposite.

So, if you were reading along, you'd likely be paying more attention to the pictures if you disagreed with the text, or paying more attention to the text if you disagree with the interpretation of the pictures.

Then I'd do a switcheroo, and you'd start paying more attention to the pictures if you'd been agreeing mostly with the text before, etc. And then maybe another switcheroo, depending on how much material there was.

The intent being to make the reader as neutral as possible, where before they held a strong opinion.. so for the final switch, where the text and the pictures start making the same argument, the reader is primed to agree with one of them (and of course it doesn't matter which they pick).. I wonder if that would have any impact on the strength to which someone held their opinion?

I think it'd be fun to try out. But I can't think of any way to try it out without it being interpreted as a social experiment. Probably because it would be a social experiment.

Life is tough for spags with memetic ambitions.

The comic book books sound interesting - do they cover similar territory to what I just described?

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on August 09, 2009, 01:39:01 AM
Understanding Comics is a very comprehensive analysis, but don't forget about Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner.  It was one of the first major attempts to deconstruct the medium and done by a true master.

I don't know that one, can you tell me more about it?

All I remember is I read a bit of Scott McCloud when I was younger (am I right in recalling the publication was also available online? or was that perhaps a special feature regarding webcomics?), and while very comprehensive, I also considered it a bit arrogant know-it-all-ish, or something, hard to explain, but I was younger, and back then I didn't understand either why, in literure class in school, we had to learn how we "should" interpret certain poems.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 09, 2009, 05:36:30 AM

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 09, 2009, 12:20:29 AM
true, I'd have done that, but this was a quick search/replace job just to see if it would work. if you insert a (td)    (/td) between each (note the 3 or 4 spaces), you should get a bit of horizontal space.

I really appreciate the effort you put in - you totally changed my perspective on the layout issue - I wouldn't expect you to reformat anything - sorry if I came across as ungrateful!

no prob, it was hardly any effort--it was just that I really didn't have time to polish it as me and my gf were just preparing to go watch a movie.

QuoteI'm not so much interested in originality as doing things which interest me.

well I didnt mean "it's been done, so don't bother redoing it", that's an artistic dead-end street IMO. But because it has been done already, in some sense or form, it might be worthwhile looking for it and gaining inspiration from how other artists used the technique (even if they used it differently or for slightly different purposes. That, IMO, combines the best of both worlds, originality and "doing things that interest me".

look for it, open some of your favourite comics, and take note of any narrative discrepancies between text and image. if you take a slightly complicated comic (e.g. not Donald Duck), there will be examples abound, if you look hard enough. then note to what narrative effect the artist used this technique.

not saying you should copy it, not at all, just look for it and get inspired. I bet you will find at least one thing that makes you go "hey yeah, that would add nicely to my current idea".

QuoteSo, if you were reading along, you'd likely be paying more attention to the pictures if you disagreed with the text, or paying more attention to the text if you disagree with the interpretation of the pictures.

Then I'd do a switcheroo, and you'd start paying more attention to the pictures if you'd been agreeing mostly with the text before, etc. And then maybe another switcheroo, depending on how much material there was.

The intent being to make the reader as neutral as possible, where before they held a strong opinion.. so for the final switch, where the text and the pictures start making the same argument, the reader is primed to agree with one of them (and of course it doesn't matter which they pick).. I wonder if that would have any impact on the strength to which someone held their opinion?

I don't want to say "Simpsons already did it", but this sounds, in some way, very similar to the narrative technique the Simpsons have been using for many seasons.

Every time the Simpsons take a sort of polarized stance on any subject, a few moments later it is made ridiculous. Regardless of whether the subject is left, right, conservative, progressive, liberal, religious, atheist etc etc. Part of the effect is that it creates a very accessible flowing "rhythm" in the episode, but the most important effect is what probably has made the Simpsons so popular for so many years, if you're right, you laugh when they make fun of the left, but when they make fun of the right, you assume they parody the anti-right. So it's win/win.

QuoteI think it'd be fun to try out. But I can't think of any way to try it out without it being interpreted as a social experiment. Probably because it would be a social experiment.

social experimenting is okay, just this board doesn't like being used as unwitting guinea pigs :)

so if you do make this thing, but are worried about the "social experiment" factor, just be open and clear about it upfront (perhaps mark it as "Spoiler" or something for those that rather check it without knowing, and reading the explanation afterwards).

The issue is not with being a test audience for your projects (that's an important part of what this forum is for, after all, if you read The Art of Memetics, you might see the similarities with a "Mastermind Group"), but with being the (unknowing) subjects of a project. You may understand, as discordians, such a thing causes a negative kneejerk reaction in a lot of people, while if you're open about it, you invite people to become part of it, without them worrying about any hidden agendas and such.

QuoteThe comic book books sound interesting - do they cover similar territory to what I just described?

Scott McCloud mostly covers graphic, design, narrative and such techniques, they are from before "memetics". The other one I don't know.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on August 09, 2009, 01:39:01 AM
Understanding Comics is a very comprehensive analysis, but don't forget about Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner.  It was one of the first major attempts to deconstruct the medium and done by a true master.

Comics is by far one of my favorite mediums to view (read?). before I read Understanding Comics I had no clue though. Easy to think poorly of comics in the US when the only genre sold more or less is superhero.

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 09, 2009, 03:14:31 PM

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on August 09, 2009, 01:39:01 AM
Understanding Comics is a very comprehensive analysis, but don't forget about Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner.  It was one of the first major attempts to deconstruct the medium and done by a true master.

I don't know that one, can you tell me more about it?

All I remember is I read a bit of Scott McCloud when I was younger (am I right in recalling the publication was also available online? or was that perhaps a special feature regarding webcomics?), and while very comprehensive, I also considered it a bit arrogant know-it-all-ish, or something, hard to explain, but I was younger, and back then I didn't understand either why, in literure class in school, we had to learn how we "should" interpret certain poems.

Will Eisner was one of the original greats, doing his work during the Golden Age.  He had a long running masked hero comic called The Spirit (recently remade into a movie that I refuse to watch by Frank Miller) that toyed with the idea of superheroes.  If you end up reading it, check out his cover work for each issue, they were all incredible.  He also is credited with inventing the term graphic novel, which he admits is an essentially meaningless phrase used as a marketing tool to make comics sound more adult oriented.  I think his Contract With God trilogy is considered the first graphic novel, but I think that one can be skipped - my personal favorite of his was called To the Heart of the Storm.  Eisner toyed with using comics for a variety of things and pioneered US Army training manuals that are still used today, showing how to assemble weapons and such using comics.  The best thing about him is that if you read a lot of his work all together you start seeing people in your everyday life as how Will Eisner would draw them.  Anyway /fanboy.

Comics and Sequential Art is a relatively short book that, if I can remember, takes a look at things like timing, body language, page design, etc, in an instructional way.  I was told that when Neil Gaiman decided he wanted to write comics he read through Comics and Sequential Art about 9 times, then wrote The Sandman.

Nice info EoC.

Sandman and Hellblazer are 2 of my favourite titles.

Fictionpuss, maybe if you wanted to gauge peoples reactions without seeming like a social experiment, get their willing participation as some kind of art and just be open about what you are doing.

I liked it.