(attempting) to tie some ideas together.

[LMNO]

"THE AXIS OF EVOL."

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

"THE AXIS OF EVOL."

LAWL!

[LMNO]

Anyway.

Looking along the X/Z grid, it seems likely that most humans would plot out as a diamond:  Very small perception values at birth, expanding to a point diuring maturity, and then decreasing again as one gets older.

I would suggest that some of us here advocate an open ended triangle; that as we age, our Z values continue to increase.

[Verbal Mike]

More like a stepped pyramid, as expansion of perception seems to mostly occur in bursts.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Which... I guess could tie to the bubble... the cone/triangle/stepped pyramid, could be the trail left by the bubble/GSP/whatever. the bubble would start with a very short y and z axis, and these would grow (depending on the individual) as the bubble increased along the x axis... I will draw a picture tonight.

This is really cool, I am excited as to the possibilities of this sort of model.... It seems rather agnostic in its symbolism, while other may appear more negative or sappy/optimistic (like some of RAW's stuff).

[LMNO]

The Z axis has still not been verified.  Further research needed.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The Z axis has still not been verified.  Further research needed.

Yes, my current thought would be X as time, Y as Space and Z as Perception... but it depends if we want the bubble to change shape, based on the person inside, or if the size of the bubble may be more static (limitation of perception) traveling through some meme filled medium.

I have some drawings which may clarify my thoughts... then again they may confuse them even more YMMV.

[Triple Zero]

well yeah add to that the memes attracting and repelling eachother as well in a very high dimensional space and you got a pretty good model of some sort of cultural phase space.

as far as i know systems like this don't have an analytical solution for anything above 3 elements, so you'd have to get numerical about it, and i'm willing to bet my pance that the system is chaotic, so it'll do you no good for any sort of long-term prediction.

it's a tangled mess!

There's no analytical solution for large numbers, but you can fairly easily program a visual display using a step by step process.  (I've done it in 2D for a class, even in Java computers are powerful enough to do it these days).

step- by-step-process = numerical approximation.

i'd guess you probably used the Euler approximation (just adding the first derivative multiplied by the size of the timestep, iterated), which has a quadratic increase in error even for non-chaotic systems.

there's better algorithms than Euler about, but for a chaotic system you're pretty much screwed, as any deviation in initial conditions and/or floating point round-off errors will accumulate and propagate increasing (often exponentially) in size.

which just means you can't use numerical approach for chaotic systems to predict what is going to happen (or only for a short period of time, like weather forecasts), but what you can do is look at what the general behaviour of the system is. just not predictive.

[LMNO]

Ok, exploring the Z-line.

So, if we have space and time, that pretty much is the expanse of the Universe, and the abyss of time.

So, if we are talking about our paths and the turns it makes, we might want to consider the Z line to be one of constraint.

Why constraint?

If it is you who are travelling, then your decisions should be less than the universe, and inside time. 

At the same time, it is fairly easy to see yourself in a situation where you cannot figure out where you are, or how you got there (unknown x/y).  Unfamiliar situations, Unidentified Objects or Situations.  So, the Z line can't be strictly Perception, as we can show the events in our lives exceeding our interpretations.

So, perhaps the Z is experience.  That is, the sensory input that preceeds interpretation. 

But that's not quite right either, as our choices are often based not on what we have been through, but purely on spectulation and imagination.  The Z line should contain not only what we have experienced, but also what we imagine possible (so long as the x or y lines aren't violated).

No, I haven't come to a conclusion yet.  I'm just posting some thoughts.

[Verbal Mike]

Let's not get caught up in finding one word to describe Z. I'm now thoroughly confused what Z could possibly be in this context, and it would be more useful to describe Z in many words first, then in one word, than the other way around, or we might end up in silly semantic arguments.

[AFK]

To be honest, when I was making the Gliffy, I wasn't necessarily, literally thinking of defining Y and Z.  I think I was mostly trying to illustrate how we exist, during our lifetime, within a huge universe that we can never fully and adequately define.  In fact the edges of the Sphere really should be dashed, not a solid line.  (but Gliffy doesn't have such options)

But certainly the question is there, what causes some, while hurtling down the x-axis towards death, to try to explore the universe or "sphere" that they are existing within.  So, in that respect, I think St. Verbatim is right.  Z, and Y for that matter, are likely a set of things that cause the outward migration from the straight-line approach to the inevitable.  I think the BIP is certainly a part of that and all that which informs and builds the bars in the BIP. 

[LMNO]

Actually, this isn't semantics, in the sense that we're splitting the meaning of a word.

This is about what the hell that Z line could represent.


[edit] I'm starting to see where you're coming from, RWHN.  I'm getting a tingle in the back of my head that I'm trying to overly what's essentially a topographical map on top of a linear XYZ graph.  Which probably won't work.[/edit]

[Verbal Mike]

Exactly, LMNO, that's why we shouldn't try to capture it in one word just yet, but rather think of more elaborate definitions for Z and see what comes out. But that's easier said than done, and I have no idea anymore how I would try to define Z. Perception came close to something I thought I could agree with but your previous post left me confused.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, it seems that we may be better off discussing what we think happens... then trying to model it.

So, we're born... the physical location and time of our birth affects what information/memes/ideas we will initially be exposed to, the initial tribal imprint maybe. I think we could say that these initial memes will have a strong effect on how we perceive reality and how we will tend to react to other different memes. So how do we go from the initial Tribal memes to others?

It seems we can generalize new memes in three areas; new memes over time (The Digital Revolution for example), new memes based on information gathering(Reading a book, taking a class, going to school), new memes based on meeting new groups of people (culture, subculture, counterculture).

Where else do memes come from?

[LMNO]

Can we not use the word "meme"?

At least not all the time.

I mean, I suppose you can look at a bully beating you up in middle school as a "meme", but that's kind of a stretch; and something like that will affect your path in life.