Malaysian Airlines plane shot down over Ukraine

[von]

aaaaaand...not to double post but it now appears RT is trying to imply the narrative of the Ukr. military trying to shoot down putin...

>http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

[MMIX]

This is a bit bad if its true
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/aids-conference-says-100-researchers-may-have-been-on-board-crashed-plane
"As many as 100 of the world's leading HIV/Aids researchers and advocates may have been on the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in Ukraine, in what has been described as a "devastating" blow to efforts to tackle the virus."

That's some serious collateral damage there.

[Cain]

aaaaaand...not to double post but it now appears RT is trying to imply the narrative of the Ukr. military trying to shoot down putin...

>http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

Yes, I heard that theory as well.  It's certainly the most plausible version of "Ukraine did it" which I have seen so far.

Still, I'm not very sold on it.  As has been widely reported, the Donetsk Republic's Twitter feed deleted a reference/picture to the kind of weapon system which could shoot down a plane, and denied having access to that kind of weaponry.

Obviously, no-one told them what happens once it is on the internet...

RonPaul420s theory is interesting, but I suspect a bit too convoluted and intelligent for our intelligence services. While smart people, they do generally like vicious, simple games where you do not pass go, do not collect $200 and a death squad burns your family alive.  Convoluted is typically, if anything, a Russian (or occasionally British) approach to intelligence,

[Raz Tech]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEDH2Z2_6Zw

They will seriously let anybody onto the news nowadays.  Video is an MSNBC anchor getting crank called by some dude claiming to be a military sergeant.  Good thing they screen calls, right?

[Cain]

Ah, but you didn't hear the call they did screen...:

HELLO CAPTIALIST RUNNING DOGS OF DECADENT WEST!  I AM PEOPLES GENERAL IVAN IVANOVITSCH IVANOVSKY OF GLORIOUS PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF DONETSK.  UKRAINE SHOT DOWN THE PLANE. 
\

[Suu]

Ah, but you didn't hear the call they did screen...:

HELLO CAPTIALIST RUNNING DOGS OF DECADENT WEST!  I AM PEOPLES GENERAL IVAN IVANOVITSCH IVANOVSKY OF GLORIOUS PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF DONETSK.  UKRAINE SHOT DOWN THE PLANE. 
\

Aaaaaand there goes my coffee. All over the screen.

[xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)]

RonPaul420s theory is interesting, but I suspect a bit too convoluted and intelligent for our intelligence services. While smart people, they do generally like vicious, simple games where you do not pass go, do not collect $200 and a death squad burns your family alive.  Convoluted is typically, if anything, a Russian (or occasionally British) approach to intelligence,

I wasnt talking about our intelligence doing it, I was saying it would make sense for Russia to intentionally target a Malaysian Airlines plane to take advantage of the conspiracy theories surrounding it. Not even saying that its related to the plane disappearing, just that it would make sense for them to take advantage of it.

Putin getting his ass handed to him and forced out of Ukraine is one thing. Putin being forced out of Ukraine by underhanded tricks involving murdering civilians is another. Right now the western story is that Russia shot the plane down, which is probably true. Putins going to denounce this as a lie, and a lot of people in his base are going to want to believe that. Right now the holographic plane folks are hard at work proving Putins innocence for him.

If youre a Russian nationalist revanchist with a propensity for conspiracy theories which narrative are you going to believe? The one the evil western governments who are lying about 9/11 and the UFOs puts out, or the one where Russia is yet again the victim of the wests underhanded scheming.

[Cain]

Ah, apologies for my misinterpretation.  In my defence, I'm normally reading seven different things at once, and yesterday was no different.

The problem is the narrative has been this for a long time before now, and I don't see this changing that in any way at all.  Ever since before the fall of Slaviansk, Russian nationalists have been bitching that Putin isn't doing enough, isn't supporting the rebels enough, isn't putting the full pressure of the Russian state on the Ukrainians.  Downing a plane wouldn't really change that narrative, at this stage it's too firmly entrenched.  I've gotten the strong impression from Russian nationalist circles I keep an eye on that nothing Putin does, short of dunking Obama's head down a toilet at the next international conference, is ever good enough for them.

Plus, based on the information we have currently, it is sufficient to posit a seperatist cause for the downing of the flight, based on capabilities, previous actions, suspicious Twitter deletions and (interestingly, though not confirmed) intercepted phone calls between the Donetsk Militia and some commanders on the ground.

[xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)]

Makes sense. Im probably just reading too much into this. How do you think Putin is going to play this? Keep blaming Ukraine? Maybe distance himself from the separatists? "Mistakes were made"?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Makes sense. Im probably just reading too much into this. How do you think Putin is going to play this? Keep blaming Ukraine? Maybe distance himself from the separatists? "Mistakes were made"?

I think the dickhead who posted on social media is gonna die, soon & horribly, and then things will go right back to where they were last week.

[Cain]

Makes sense. Im probably just reading too much into this. How do you think Putin is going to play this? Keep blaming Ukraine? Maybe distance himself from the separatists? "Mistakes were made"?

Speculation is fun, but at the end of the day, Occam's Razor is usually a good rule of thumb until the evidence points otherwise.

I suspect Putin will pretty much stop supporting the rebels entirely at this point.  He wont publically say anything, I'm fairly sure, but Moscow has to prioritise its relationship with America, as rocky as that is, over the rebels.  Crimea is secure, eastern Ukraine was always a bonus prize at best, a testing ground for the limits of  "special warfare" in actuality, and now a headache and pain in the arse.

In Putin's position, I'd close the border and let NATO support Kyiv to the hilt.  Russia has the long-term advantages in Ukraine anyway, a fight was never the smartest option from that POV.

[Telarus]

I think the dickhead who posted on social media is gonna die, soon & horribly, ...

My roommate is of the same opinion.

[Suu]

In close to home sort of news, my friend who is currently about to complete his PhD at Dartmouth had 2 buddies scheduled to be on this flight. They decided to stay an extra day in Amsterdam to smoke pot. They were part of the AIDS research team.

Not sure if irony that drugs saved their lives or...

[The Johnny]

In close to home sort of news, my friend who is currently about to complete his PhD at Dartmouth had 2 buddies scheduled to be on this flight. They decided to stay an extra day in Amsterdam to smoke pot. They were part of the AIDS research team.

Not sure if irony that drugs saved their lives or...

But if they keep injecting marijuanas they will get AIDS 

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

The problem is the narrative has been this for a long time before now, and I don't see this changing that in any way at all.  Ever since before the fall of Slaviansk, Russian nationalists have been bitching that Putin isn't doing enough, isn't supporting the rebels enough, isn't putting the full pressure of the Russian state on the Ukrainians.  Downing a plane wouldn't really change that narrative, at this stage it's too firmly entrenched.  I've gotten the strong impression from Russian nationalist circles I keep an eye on that nothing Putin does, short of dunking Obama's head down a toilet at the next international conference, is ever good enough for them.

Is anyone else slightly amused that this sounds like exactly what Obama is going though with the Tea Party, just in a different hemishere?