Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Two vast and trunkless legs of stone => Topic started by: Verbal Mike on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM

Title: "Atheism+"
Post by: Verbal Mike on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
No idea if it's already been mentioned here, but this site is intriguing, and might conceivably be a place for gentle trolling and/or recruiting:
http://atheismplus.com/

Quote
Atheism+ is a safe space for people to discuss how religion affects everyone and to apply skepticism and critical thinking to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, GLBT issues, politics, poverty, and crime.

Heard about it from this vice.com article. (http://www.vice.com/read/atheism-sexismatheism-00003000-v19n10)
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Cain on November 02, 2012, 11:52:24 PM
I've heard of them.  I have a problem with them, namely that it equates atheism with scientific expertise/feel-good American liberalism and social activisim.  Obviously no-one explained to them that correlation is not causation.  Or told them about Lysenkoism, it would seem.

It's also something of a hugbox for the worst offenders in the whole Skepchick/rape in an elevator debacle on Watson's "side", though I use that word loosely given how much damage they did to their own credibility.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on November 04, 2012, 03:06:34 PM
Norway has a lot of atheists. Among them you find homophobes, racists, Maoists, conservative right-wingers. Lack of belief in gods is just one variable among dozens and does not in itself make a person any less of an idiot.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Placid Dingo on November 05, 2012, 12:46:39 PM
I'll sign up when I get back to a laptop or something.  Their bot test is impossible on a phone.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: Verbal Mike on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
No idea if it's already been mentioned here, but this site is intriguing, and might conceivably be a place for gentle trolling and/or recruiting:
http://atheismplus.com/

Quote
Atheism+ is a safe space for people to discuss how religion affects everyone and to apply skepticism and critical thinking to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, GLBT issues, politics, poverty, and crime.

Heard about it from this vice.com article. (http://www.vice.com/read/atheism-sexismatheism-00003000-v19n10)

Automatic retards.  "Safe space" = WE WILL BAN EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES.

Also, I notice that the "critical thinking" part doesn't seem to be applied to the obvious flaw in atheism, ie, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Fuck these ass biscuits.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 05, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
The problem I have with atheism is that it rallies an identity around a lack of belief in something.

:?

If something doesn't exist, doesn't it make more sense to not define yourself by it at all? Also, spending time discussing and defending the lack of existence of something just seems mind-bogglingly pointless to me. In addition, I'm not entirely comfortable with associations of people that define themselves by what they are not.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
The problem I have with atheism is that it rallies an identity around a lack of belief in something.

:?

If something doesn't exist, doesn't it make more sense to not define yourself by it at all? Also, spending time discussing and defending the lack of existence of something just seems mind-bogglingly pointless to me. In addition, I'm not entirely comfortable with associations of people that define themselves by what they are not.

I would have phrased it:

The problem I have with isms is that people base their identities on them.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HAIRY THUNDERER, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.  IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT FAITHFOOL.

(Sorry, Waffle, it's just the way it is.)
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 03:47:35 PM
Hey, everyone!  I don't believe in the Hairy Thunderer!

LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Verbal Mike on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
No idea if it's already been mentioned here, but this site is intriguing, and might conceivably be a place for gentle trolling and/or recruiting:
http://atheismplus.com/

Quote
Atheism+ is a safe space for people to discuss how religion affects everyone and to apply skepticism and critical thinking to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, GLBT issues, politics, poverty, and crime.

Heard about it from this vice.com article. (http://www.vice.com/read/atheism-sexismatheism-00003000-v19n10)

I've had this come up in a number of different discussions on-line.  Even though I pretty much agree with them down the line - I still kind of resent it.  I mean, I get what trying to be done here, the folks at FTB are trying to construct a political identity for Atheists, in a distinctly American context, to serve hopefully as a counter balance to the religious right.  But my Atheism isn't the rock bottom of my personal identity, so why would I want to build my political identity on that?

More to the point if you're basing anything in your identity on your lack of belief in something, that just seems wrong at some level.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 04:05:32 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Verbal Mike on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
No idea if it's already been mentioned here, but this site is intriguing, and might conceivably be a place for gentle trolling and/or recruiting:
http://atheismplus.com/

Quote
Atheism+ is a safe space for people to discuss how religion affects everyone and to apply skepticism and critical thinking to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, GLBT issues, politics, poverty, and crime.

Heard about it from this vice.com article. (http://www.vice.com/read/atheism-sexismatheism-00003000-v19n10)

I've had this come up in a number of different discussions on-line.  Even though I pretty much agree with them down the line - I still kind of resent it.  I mean, I get what trying to be done here, the folks at FTB are trying to construct a political identity for Atheists, in a distinctly American context, to serve hopefully as a counter balance to the religious right.  But my Atheism isn't the rock bottom of my personal identity, so why would I want to build my political identity on that?

More to the point if you're basing anything in your identity on your lack of belief in something, that just seems wrong at some level.

And that "safe place" thing implies they're huddling up for some good old collective fart breathing.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:14:59 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 04:05:32 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Verbal Mike on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 PM
No idea if it's already been mentioned here, but this site is intriguing, and might conceivably be a place for gentle trolling and/or recruiting:
http://atheismplus.com/

Quote
Atheism+ is a safe space for people to discuss how religion affects everyone and to apply skepticism and critical thinking to everything, including social issues like sexism, racism, GLBT issues, politics, poverty, and crime.

Heard about it from this vice.com article. (http://www.vice.com/read/atheism-sexismatheism-00003000-v19n10)

I've had this come up in a number of different discussions on-line.  Even though I pretty much agree with them down the line - I still kind of resent it.  I mean, I get what trying to be done here, the folks at FTB are trying to construct a political identity for Atheists, in a distinctly American context, to serve hopefully as a counter balance to the religious right.  But my Atheism isn't the rock bottom of my personal identity, so why would I want to build my political identity on that?

More to the point if you're basing anything in your identity on your lack of belief in something, that just seems wrong at some level.

And that "safe place" thing implies they're huddling up for some good old collective fart breathing.

I don't know about that.  I understand the idea behind a "safe place" concept, and while it frequently does turn into just another echo chamber where you can tune out WRONGTHINK - al la FR or DU for the political junkie - it can be useful as a controlled discussion.  Whether it becomes the former or the latter is up to those who run it.  I have seen both, they do exist. 

Whether the folks at FTB can swing it or not - I'm agnostic about, just because FTB RAEPS the corpse of irony just by its name, but whatever.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:14:59 PM
I don't know about that.  I understand the idea behind a "safe place" concept, and while it frequently does turn into just another echo chamber where you can tune out WRONGTHINK - al la FR or DU for the political junkie - it can be useful as a controlled discussion.  Whether it becomes the former or the latter is up to those who run it.  I have seen both, they do exist.

I'll take your word on it.  My own experience is that any sight with the words "safe place" associated with it is ban-happy, with the ban trigger being "disagreeing with the group in an effective way."  They're there to slap-ass and high five about how much smarter they are than other people who believe things they can't prove. 
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mangrove on November 05, 2012, 04:19:37 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I also don't believe in the angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. However, I philosophically disagree with your definitions of  'angry', 'unicorn' and 'moon'. I'm going to call my new position 'I don't believe in an angry unicorn plus.'




A schism about 'absence' ITT
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:14:59 PM
I don't know about that.  I understand the idea behind a "safe place" concept, and while it frequently does turn into just another echo chamber where you can tune out WRONGTHINK - al la FR or DU for the political junkie - it can be useful as a controlled discussion.  Whether it becomes the former or the latter is up to those who run it.  I have seen both, they do exist.

I'll take your word on it.  My own experience is that any sight with the words "safe place" associated with it is ban-happy, with the ban trigger being "disagreeing with the group in an effective way."  They're there to slap-ass and high five about how much smarter they are than other people who believe things they can't prove.

It's a tricky line to walk, and generally it's more useful for very narrowly defined groups where a "safe place" is vital to the group being able to explore the singular topic at hand (rape survivors, addicts, ect.) than it is for larger, more broad reaching groups.  And even then it's tricky because there has to be a willingness on those running the group to allow for questioning of the group's doxa.

Which is why I'm agnostic on this effort.  That all of the listed political beliefs would emerge from a singular lack of belief seems a bit too broad to effectively do anything but become an echo chamber where the inmates just howl at whomever happens to be Emmanuel Goldstein this week.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 04:35:31 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:31:47 PM
It's a tricky line to walk, and generally it's more useful for very narrowly defined groups where a "safe place" is vital to the group being able to explore the singular topic at hand (rape survivors, addicts, ect.) than it is for larger, more broad reaching groups.

Well, that's just it.  It's like hearing the phrase "trigger word", etc, when not applied to things that are actually traumatic.

Or even then, come to think of it.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:38:57 PM
The "safe place" aspect has a lot to do with the Atheism+ people being, at least in part, the more wild-eyed defenders of Skepchick during the great "being creepy in a lift is rape" debacle*.  As such, they're convinced atheism is overrun by privilged white dudes (which I don't think anyone can reasonably deny) and that they need said "safe place" to discuss such topics without the inevitable shitstorms such topics as feminism tend to create (which is far more debateable).

That aside, I can only agree with Internet Jesus, that this looks to be an attempt to bring atheism under the banner of liberalism, which in America means the Democrats.  It's questionable logic (one of my favourite writers on science is a self-confessed conservative, Ayn Rand was an atheist), questionable philosophical linkage (the Soviet Union was "scientific", except, you know, Lysenkoism) and more to the point, there's already this movement called "Humanism" which, regardless of the religion affiliation of its adherents, is very keen on secularism and using knowledge to advance human society and enrich people's lives. 

I mean, I know atheists tend to be very poor philosophers in the first place, but humanism is the greater school of thinking which atheism draws from.  Some basic historical awareness would be nice.


*Basically, someone in a lift was hitting on the Skepchick blogger while she was alone in a lift, at 4am.  Creepy and undeniably an issue of really fucking poor boundaries on the part of the dude, but depending on who you listen to, either Skepchick is a man-hating misandrist and paranoid, or she was Almost Raped.  Naturally, the actual truth lies somewhere between the two, and pointing that out simply means both sides will shit on you.

Edit: most of the above does not make sense.  Filter it through the perceptions of someone who has slept two hours in the past 48, and has drunk his own body weight in Red Bull
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:54:02 PM
Speaking of philosophical and historical naiveness, I wonder when atheists will realise their beloved rationalism was in fact the chief tool of the Society of Jesus in the Counter-Reformation, and that indeed the modern scientific revolution was an unintended side effect of that effort to bring the world back into the Catholic fold.  Iganatius Loyala was very keen on rational methods of organization and training to make the Jesuits a principle force in re-establishing Catholic domination of Europe and the colonies.

There is a great amount of irony in people calling for more rationality, directed at people who successfully adopted it nearly 500 years previously.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:54:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:38:57 PM
That aside, I can only agree with Internet Jesus, that this looks to be an attempt to bring atheism under the banner of liberalism, which in America means the Democrats.  It's questionable logic (one of my favourite writers on science is a self-confessed conservative, Ayn Rand was an atheist), questionable philosophical linkage (the Soviet Union was "scientific", except, you know, Lysenkoism) and more to the point, there's already this movement called "Humanism" which, regardless of the religion affiliation of its adherents, is very keen on secularism and using knowledge to advance human society and enrich people's lives. 

There's also the idea that they're trying to rebrand their own little subset into something greater (like what the GOP base did with the Teabaggers) - which irritates me to no small degree.  Re-branding is stupid and insulting when businesses do it (I get why they go in for the whole "branding" issue in the first place, and even though it makes sense, I still think its kind of insulting), but when political movements do it .......

Well let's just say that it makes me wonder how much we actually are individuals and not just the reflection of the societal pressures we self select for.

(Prediction:  This will go over like a Led Balloon, just like the idea of rebranding themselves as "brights" did.  If there's one good thing about Atheists in general, it's that they don't really have a party line except the lack of belief in one specific thing.  There's no one who can honestly say "X is not an Atheist, because he's not pro-choice")
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:58:22 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:54:02 PM
There is a great amount of irony in people calling for more rationality, directed at people who successfully adopted it nearly 500 years previously.

Probably way more Amerocentric than I need to be, but couldn't it be argued thatits more accurate to say that the folks that the calls for more rationality are directed at tried rationality, and gave it up?

I mean - yeah the Jesuits are all rational and shit, but only up to a point.  Which isn't even grappling with the folks who can find mentions of Dinosaurs in the bible.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2012, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:58:22 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:54:02 PM
There is a great amount of irony in people calling for more rationality, directed at people who successfully adopted it nearly 500 years previously.

Probably way more Amerocentric than I need to be, but couldn't it be argued thatits more accurate to say that the folks that the calls for more rationality are directed at tried rationality, and gave it up?

I mean - yeah the Jesuits are all rational and shit, but only up to a point.  Which isn't even grappling with the folks who can find mentions of Dinosaurs in the bible.

That's probably part of it.  But even fundamentalists tend to rely on formal arguments and "proofs" for the existence of God, disbelief in evolution etc.  The fundamentalist paradigm is a fairly modern one, and like most fairly modern innovations, has a bedrock of rationality running through it.  This makes sense when you realise fundamentalism isn't just a rigid restatement of past orthodoxies, but a complex strategic interplay that seeks solutions to the problems of evidence that runs counter to scripture.

Much like economics, it's a matter of really smart people finding really smart ways to continue to be stupid.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Lord Cataplanga on November 05, 2012, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:54:02 PM
Speaking of philosophical and historical naiveness, I wonder when atheists will realise their beloved rationalism was in fact the chief tool of the Society of Jesus in the Counter-Reformation, and that indeed the modern scientific revolution was an unintended side effect of that effort to bring the world back into the Catholic fold.  Iganatius Loyala was very keen on rational methods of organization and training to make the Jesuits a principle force in re-establishing Catholic domination of Europe and the colonies.

There is a great amount of irony in people calling for more rationality, directed at people who successfully adopted it nearly 500 years previously.

I think what they are working towards is precisely that side effect. They don't really care about converting other people to atheism per se.
If some people end up becoming atheists because of their efforts, THAT will be a side effect.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 05, 2012, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
The problem I have with atheism is that it rallies an identity around a lack of belief in something.

:?

If something doesn't exist, doesn't it make more sense to not define yourself by it at all? Also, spending time discussing and defending the lack of existence of something just seems mind-bogglingly pointless to me. In addition, I'm not entirely comfortable with associations of people that define themselves by what they are not.

THIS THIS THIS A MILLION TIMES THIS.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 05:04:29 PM
That's probably part of it.  But even fundamentalists tend to rely on formal arguments and "proofs" for the existence of God, disbelief in evolution etc.  The fundamentalist paradigm is a fairly modern one, and like most fairly modern innovations, has a bedrock of rationality running through it.  This makes sense when you realise fundamentalism isn't just a rigid restatement of past orthodoxies, but a complex strategic interplay that seeks solutions to the problems of evidence that runs counter to scripture.

Much like economics, it's a matter of really smart people finding really smart ways to continue to be stupid.

I hadn't seen that particular angle yet, but now that you mention it, I can see it.

But then wouldn't that argue for the conclusion that even if the Jesuits introduced rationality, that humanity as a whole saw its usefulness and just adopted it without the Catholic trappings?

I mean yeah, it's ironic, but only in the same sense that the Torah was compiled during the Persian exile, so you have Jews following a faith that has direct influence from Persian (Iranian) sources.

(The Persians are the ultimate trolls, having managed to troll themselves 2,000 years after the fact)
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Lord Cataplanga on November 05, 2012, 05:34:29 PM
Quote from: Lenin/McCarthy on November 04, 2012, 03:06:34 PM
Norway has a lot of atheists. Among them you find homophobes, racists, Maoists, conservative right-wingers. Lack of belief in gods is just one variable among dozens and does not in itself make a person any less of an idiot.

You know, I think the weirdest thing is that atheists are perfectly aware of this, but instead of saying "we should work on our critical thinking skills so we won't end up like them", they say "Holy Spaghetti Monster, even idiots are atheists in Norway, we should be more like Norway".

Not that there's anything wrong with that, on the contrary: If they seriously believe that by raising everyone's standard of living to Norway-levels, people will automatically convert to Atheism, I will support them.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 06, 2012, 02:32:23 AM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 05:04:29 PM
That's probably part of it.  But even fundamentalists tend to rely on formal arguments and "proofs" for the existence of God, disbelief in evolution etc.  The fundamentalist paradigm is a fairly modern one, and like most fairly modern innovations, has a bedrock of rationality running through it.  This makes sense when you realise fundamentalism isn't just a rigid restatement of past orthodoxies, but a complex strategic interplay that seeks solutions to the problems of evidence that runs counter to scripture.

Much like economics, it's a matter of really smart people finding really smart ways to continue to be stupid.

I hadn't seen that particular angle yet, but now that you mention it, I can see it.

But then wouldn't that argue for the conclusion that even if the Jesuits introduced rationality, that humanity as a whole saw its usefulness and just adopted it without the Catholic trappings?

Speaking only from personal experience, I know a number of atheists who owe a large part of their rational approach to (and denial of) religion to a Jesuit education.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 06, 2012, 02:55:40 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:58:22 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2012, 04:54:02 PM
There is a great amount of irony in people calling for more rationality, directed at people who successfully adopted it nearly 500 years previously.

Probably way more Amerocentric than I need to be, but couldn't it be argued thatits more accurate to say that the folks that the calls for more rationality are directed at tried rationality, and gave it up?

I mean - yeah the Jesuits are all rational and shit, but only up to a point.  Which isn't even grappling with the folks who can find mentions of Dinosaurs in the bible.

That's probably part of it.  But even fundamentalists tend to rely on formal arguments and "proofs" for the existence of God, disbelief in evolution etc.  The fundamentalist paradigm is a fairly modern one, and like most fairly modern innovations, has a bedrock of rationality running through it.  This makes sense when you realise fundamentalism isn't just a rigid restatement of past orthodoxies, but a complex strategic interplay that seeks solutions to the problems of evidence that runs counter to scripture.

Much like economics, it's a matter of really smart people finding really smart ways to continue to be stupid.

Expanding on this a bit -
Pre-modern: God is obvious. Why would you need evidence or logic supporting it?
Moderns Pt. 1: Hey, this reason thing's not all bad; I can start with no premises and logically prove that God exists! (Descartes, Spinoza et al)
Moderns Pt. 2: That proof is highly suspect. In fact, the more we look into it the harder we find it to prove God exists. (Hume, etc)
Reformation: Oh shit! Pure reason is not the ally we had hoped for. Lets pin everything on individual revelation, taking stuff on faith, and the fundamental ineffableness of God.
Counter-reformation: No need to panic; reason and faith aren't contradictory values.* See, it only takes the most advanced rhetorical training on the planet to make this stuff seem reasonable. (Jesuits)
Modern evangelical movement: "Because I believe it" isn't a particularly convincing elevator pitch, and the artifactual evidence isn't lining up the way we want it to. What sounds good to non-believers and doesn't rely on empricism? Let's try pure rhetoric and logic.

*aside from a few highly public incidents, like that thing with Galileo, the Catholic church has been pretty good at not setting itself in opposition to science. The strategy is that they'll let people do whatever investigation into evolution or neurology they want, so long as they get to say what the results mean on a spiritual level. They've been practicing saying "We know humans are good and loved because after Creation, God looked upon it and saw that it was good. That it took billions of years and not seven days in no way detracts from this truth." for decades now, while the fundamentalists continue to dump more and more credibility into creation museums.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2012, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
The problem I have with atheism is that it rallies an identity around a lack of belief in something.

:?

If something doesn't exist, doesn't it make more sense to not define yourself by it at all? Also, spending time discussing and defending the lack of existence of something just seems mind-bogglingly pointless to me. In addition, I'm not entirely comfortable with associations of people that define themselves by what they are not.

I would have phrased it:

The problem I have with isms is that people base their identities on them.

I don't really have an issue with "isms" per se, myself. I'm a feminist, socialist, scientist sort of person, and all of those are "isms".

I might be more likely to say that the problem I have with people is that they tend to base their identities on isms.

Basing your identity on an ism tends to push you into True Believer, One True and Only Right Way territory, and man, that shit is scary. Sort of like how even though I believe that voting is important, the Voting True Believers, the people who more or less take the standpoint "IF YOU DON'T VOTE I HATE YOU, YOU SUBHUMAN PIECE OF SHIT" are at roughly the same level of alarming to me as Klansmen.

But mostly, as fascinated as I am by the nature of personality and identity, I am especially fascinated, and disturbed, by people who identify themselves primarily not by what they ARE, but by what they ARE NOT. It seems to me that people who do that, who spend most of their effort existing in reaction against something else, must have very poorly developed senses of self, and that must be even more true when the thing their existence is defined in opposition to is something they don't even believe to exist.

"I define myself in opposition to something that does not exist".

The opposite of zero is also zero.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2012, 06:57:18 AM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:47:35 PM
Hey, everyone!  I don't believe in the Hairy Thunderer!

LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2012, 06:59:10 AM
Quote from: Mangrove on November 05, 2012, 04:19:37 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I also don't believe in the angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. However, I philosophically disagree with your definitions of  'angry', 'unicorn' and 'moon'. I'm going to call my new position 'I don't believe in an angry unicorn plus.'




A schism about 'absence' ITT

:lol: Win.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: EK WAFFLR on November 06, 2012, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HAIRY THUNDERER, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.  IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT FAITHFOOL.

(Sorry, Waffle, it's just the way it is.)

Hairy Thunderer is SO REAL!
Your insolence makes me want to pillage England, again.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2012, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: The Waffler on November 06, 2012, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HAIRY THUNDERER, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.  IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT FAITHFOOL.

(Sorry, Waffle, it's just the way it is.)

Hairy Thunderer is SO REAL!
Your insolence makes me want to pillage England, again.

You should.

And the Hairy Thunderer may or may not be real, but is still every bit as valid as atheism.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Luna on November 06, 2012, 06:51:25 PM
Quote from: The Waffler on November 06, 2012, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HAIRY THUNDERER, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.  IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT FAITHFOOL.

(Sorry, Waffle, it's just the way it is.)

Hairy Thunderer is SO REAL!
Your insolence makes me want to pillage England, again.

Send me something pretty when you're done.  I hear they've got some nice jewelry stashed up in a tower somewhere so nobody can look at it.  Bastards.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: EK WAFFLR on November 06, 2012, 11:33:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2012, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: The Waffler on November 06, 2012, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HAIRY THUNDERER, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.  IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT FAITHFOOL.

(Sorry, Waffle, it's just the way it is.)

Hairy Thunderer is SO REAL!
Your insolence makes me want to pillage England, again.

You should.

And the Hairy Thunderer may or may not be real, but is still every bit as valid as atheism.

Oh agreed on both counts.
Luna needs Crown Jewels after all. And I intend to keep my set.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Luna on November 07, 2012, 01:31:38 AM
Quote from: The Waffler on November 06, 2012, 11:33:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2012, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: The Waffler on November 06, 2012, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Reverend Roadkill on November 05, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: CAKE on November 05, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
I don't believe in an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. WHO'S WITH ME????

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HAIRY THUNDERER, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.  IF YOU DO THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT FAITHFOOL.

(Sorry, Waffle, it's just the way it is.)

Hairy Thunderer is SO REAL!
Your insolence makes me want to pillage England, again.

You should.

And the Hairy Thunderer may or may not be real, but is still every bit as valid as atheism.

Oh agreed on both counts.
Luna needs Crown Jewels after all. And I intend to keep my set.

:lol:   :lol:   :lol:
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Verbal Mike on November 07, 2012, 09:51:12 AM
I don't think atheism-as-identity is truly defined by a lack of belief. I've been there, and I think it's rather defined by opposition to commonly held "truths" and belief systems, which seems to me quite a different thing than mere lack of belief. But atheists don't see it this way, and nor did I when I was one – I remember arguing fervently that "atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color", which is what atheists like to think of themselves.*

And try as I might, I also can't see a logical connection between the atheism part and the social equality part of "A+". Nonetheless, I'm glad to see struggles against discrimination in any community, hence I like that "A+" exists.

As for silencing minority opinions – I won't be surprised if they do, but the one thread I'm slowly reading through (http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=416) there shows a surprisingly good spirit of debate and respectful disagreement, even when it comes to the core of the community's purpose. I'm more than willing to chalk this up to early days – I won't be surprised if a couple months/years down the road, there's a ruthless orthodoxy silencing any opposition. It just doesn't seem to have gotten there yet.

*To mention another group that defines itself by opposition to the majority, but unlike atheism doesn't claim to define itself by absence of some belief, the Israeli Left seems to work this way in recent years. We have a certain set of common universalist values we claim to define ourselves by, but we're mainly defined by our opposition to core majority projects, like the Occupation.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 07, 2012, 10:13:27 AM
In my mind, religion is a very obvious troll/con job, that's been going on so long now that the majority of the con men even believe it's real. Most "rabid" atheists I've met strike me as people who are outraged by the whole whole premise of talking to imaginary people, invading countries and murdering infidels and chopping pieces off infant's genitals for great profit. It's like they have a defective lol-gland or something.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Placid Dingo on November 07, 2012, 02:12:46 PM
Some of it's cool.

The glossary, I'm a bit unsure about.

QuoteMisandry - hatred of or hostility towards men. Misandry is not reinforced systemically nor institutionally. (See also: Sexism)

Misogyny - hatred of or hostility towards women, often seen as contempt. Misogyny is reinforced systemically and institutionally. (See also: Sexism)

And while I get the idea behind a trigger warning, does the definition of the word Rape really need one? And why no trigger warning for Rape Culture?
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: LMNO on November 07, 2012, 02:17:56 PM
Not to belittle PTSD victims, but if the word "Rape" is a trigger, than how do you warn about that?  "Trigger Warning: 'R-Word'"?
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 07, 2012, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:14:59 PM
I don't know about that.  I understand the idea behind a "safe place" concept, and while it frequently does turn into just another echo chamber where you can tune out WRONGTHINK - al la FR or DU for the political junkie - it can be useful as a controlled discussion.  Whether it becomes the former or the latter is up to those who run it.  I have seen both, they do exist.

I'll take your word on it.  My own experience is that any sight with the words "safe place" associated with it is ban-happy, with the ban trigger being "disagreeing with the group in an effective way."  They're there to slap-ass and high five about how much smarter they are than other people who believe things they can't prove.

Yeah. The first time I saw the term used was at a little forum where people were sharing angel card images and wicca spells.  :lol:
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 07, 2012, 05:39:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 07, 2012, 02:17:56 PM
Not to belittle PTSD victims, but if the word "Rape" is a trigger, than how do you warn about that?  "Trigger Warning: 'R-Word'"?

This!
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 07, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on November 07, 2012, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Internet Jesus on November 05, 2012, 04:14:59 PM
I don't know about that.  I understand the idea behind a "safe place" concept, and while it frequently does turn into just another echo chamber where you can tune out WRONGTHINK - al la FR or DU for the political junkie - it can be useful as a controlled discussion.  Whether it becomes the former or the latter is up to those who run it.  I have seen both, they do exist.

I'll take your word on it.  My own experience is that any sight with the words "safe place" associated with it is ban-happy, with the ban trigger being "disagreeing with the group in an effective way."  They're there to slap-ass and high five about how much smarter they are than other people who believe things they can't prove.

Yeah. The first time I saw the term used was at a little forum where people were sharing angel card images and wicca spells.  :lol:

"Safe places" on the internet are best reserved for online support groups, IMO. Pregnant women, war veterans, and incest survivors can really use a place for talking about their experiences without being hassled by trolls. If it's a forum that's meant to be a free exchange of ideas, "safe place" usually ends up being used as a cover for selective censorship and favoritism.

The one place I've seen moderation work best has been a place that has, simply, a "no personal attacks" rule. You can attack the idea all you want, but if you post a personal attack you'll be warned to re-word it to attack the idea and not the person.

As far as "triggers", in online communities where there are survivors of assault or abuse, that usually doesn't mean the word "rape", but a description of rape or abuse that is graphic enough to trigger a flashback or a traumatic reaction.

You can't predict everyone's triggers, but some of the most common ones are pretty obvious.
Title: Re: "Atheism+"
Post by: Placid Dingo on November 08, 2012, 09:54:09 PM
Ohhh goodness.

I posted that since some dude was asking for advice on how to be more respectful of the needs of his non-white friends, treating him like a selfish asshole was probably unneeded.

Quote
Quote from: CatherineMod hat: PlacidDingo, we don't tone police here, marginalised people have a right to be upset when they are being marginalised...

Man, I hate it when my friends try to marginalise me by trying to understand cultural differences.