Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Literate Chaotic => Topic started by: Churro the Viscous on April 06, 2008, 06:48:03 PM

Title: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Churro the Viscous on April 06, 2008, 06:48:03 PM
I'm new here.
I'm new to Discordianism.
I read the Wikipedia page this week, and liked it.
Yesterday, I read Principia Discordia in its entirety.
I've decided : this is PERFECT for me!

I'm an atheist.
One that doesn't proselytize, of course.
I'm more of an apathetic atheist.
I just accept that God doesn't exist, and I leave it at that.

Discordianism, for me, provides a mythology, and metaphors, for things I already believe.
For example, the Curse of Greyface :
I've always been of the opinion that people who take religion and things like that too seriously are annoying and destructive.
Also, I like the story of Eris and Aneris and Void.
I like the symbolism in that.

A few months ago, I was introduced to Joseph Campbell.
He maintains that religions aren't meant to be taken literally.
He maintains that the metaphors can be very useful,
but, when taken literally, can be quite destructive.
That's another reason why this religion is so perfect :
We can recognize what is and isn't meant to be taken literally.
We see the metaphors for what they are,
and thus have no animosity towards people who don't believe the stories,
as opposed to, for example, Christians,
who condemn those who don't take their parables as literal Truth.

So, in that respect, Discordianism isn't a "mock religion";
No, no, no, it is the IDEAL religion.
Discordianism is an example of what religion should be.

I probably have more thoughts, but I'm done for now.
Feedback would be nice.
Maybe I got this thing all wrong.
Maybe there is no wrong, of course, and I can view it how I wish.
That's what the Principia said, in various places.
So, tell me what you think, Erisians of the Internets.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on April 06, 2008, 06:53:09 PM
QuoteSo, in that respect, Discordianism isn't a "mock religion";
No, no, no, it is the IDEAL religion.
Discordianism is an example of what religion should be.
Okay, THAT'S one I haven't heard before. Welcome to the forum.

QuoteMaybe I got this thing all wrong.
Maybe there is no wrong, of course, and I can view it how I wish.
Never forget this, and your chances of survival will increase dramatically.

QuoteThat's what the Principia said, in various places.
You can forget this, though. Or not.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 06, 2008, 07:04:27 PM
Welcome, Churro. Joseph Campbell is like unto a GOD to me.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Churro the Viscous on April 06, 2008, 07:06:37 PM
Thank you, Cainad and Nigel.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Vene on April 06, 2008, 07:35:34 PM
That was entirely too well thought out.

Quote from: Churro the Viscous on April 06, 2008, 06:48:03 PM
lol23 FNORD  PINEAL

RAW was teh shit!  I'm a really REAL Discordian FOR REALZ!

:ronpaul:


Did I mention lol23?
Much better.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Churro the Viscous on April 06, 2008, 07:42:24 PM
Haha :lulz:
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Churro the Viscous on April 07, 2008, 12:32:12 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 06, 2008, 06:53:09 PM
QuoteSo, in that respect, Discordianism isn't a "mock religion";
No, no, no, it is the IDEAL religion.
Discordianism is an example of what religion should be.
Okay, THAT'S one I haven't heard before.
I was actually kind of expecting my ideas to coincide with other discordians' ideas.
Since that's not really the case, I'd like to know:
What are your views on Discordianism?
(your = directed towards all here)
What is it's purpose to you?
What does it mean to you?
Is it just a game for laughs?
Does it have any real philosophical significance?

Let me know.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 12:50:53 AM
"Discordians!  Coming apart is more fun when you do it together!"

Something like that.

Anyway, I personally have always been attracted to the more 'zen' aspect, or the mind-games type things, inherent in Discordian thought.  My main problem is that I think too much, and thus now enjoy thinking in ways that are outside the auspices of thinking.  Not necessarily "thinking without thought" but more a sort of meta-thinking without thinking about thinking.  Basically I just want to write think and thought until neither look like words any more.


And of course, just to rehash quotes:

QuoteQuote
Maybe I got this thing all wrong.
Maybe there is no wrong, of course, and I can view it how I wish.

Never forget this, and your chances of survival will increase dramatically.

Quote
That's what the Principia said, in various places.

You can forget this, though. Or not.

The Principia is basically intended to serve as a "guide" to the world of free-thinking/free-feeling/free-believing.  That is, belief, thought or feeling without the nasty trappings of dogma.  Religion itself is a very fine thing.  Spirituality and all that.  I personally am (more or less) an atheist.    However, I think it's great if people can feel some sort of "spiritual connection" to what-have you.  It's the Dogma that gets me down.

Religion without Dogma = fine
Religion without Dogma = usually just the Dogma, which is nonsensical

An interesting read I just found recently is Thornley's Zenarchy.  It's online in various and sundry locations, and well worth a read if you're into the slightly more cerebral stuff (I am a nerd).
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Vene on April 07, 2008, 01:35:51 AM
Quote from: Churro the Viscous on April 07, 2008, 12:32:12 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 06, 2008, 06:53:09 PM
QuoteSo, in that respect, Discordianism isn't a "mock religion";
No, no, no, it is the IDEAL religion.
Discordianism is an example of what religion should be.
Okay, THAT'S one I haven't heard before.
I was actually kind of expecting my ideas to coincide with other discordians' ideas.
Since that's not really the case, I'd like to know:
What are your views on Discordianism?
(your = directed towards all here)
What is it's purpose to you?
What does it mean to you?
Is it just a game for laughs?
Does it have any real philosophical significance?

Let me know.
I happen to like its embrace of change and that one of the tenets is to think it out for yourself.  And the humor, gotta love the humor.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 07, 2008, 01:53:38 AM
Quote from: Churro the Viscous on April 06, 2008, 06:48:03 PM
it is the IDEAL religion.
Discordianism is an example of what religion should be.
I don't like this kind of blanket statement. I also don't like defining what anything "should" be or do. Religion just is. And Discordianism is by no means ideal. Hang out here for a while, and you'll begin to see that nothing is perfect (and this is perfectly beautiful to my taste). I like to think Discordianism and these forums are just things that happen to lead me to new and interesting thoughts again and again. I'm positive the same ideas can come up outside of the Discordian framework, but my mind has been poisoned with Discordianism and I simply can't think of anything in those areas of metaphysics/philosophy that Discordianism covers without recalling Discordianism. This could be a bad thing, I guess, but it also just is, and I don't intend to fight it.
I'm sure if I were born in a very different culture, say in Japan or in Egypt or in any native tribe, things would be different. My world view would be so different to what it was that I would never have even heard of Discordianism, not to mention actually getting into it. But I might have reached the same kind of thought, the same awareness of my fleshy cage, through different philosophical frameworks. Zen Buddhism, of course, comes to mind, as does Taoism. (Neither very big in Egypt or in tribal societies, I know.)
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 02:59:54 AM
Quote from: st.verbatim on April 07, 2008, 01:53:38 AM
Zen Buddhism, of course, comes to mind, as does Taoism.

Discordianism owes very big debts to both these philosophies/religions.  Sophism (I don't think that's even a word.  The greek Sophists) is also quite fun, and does occasionally employ the "make fun of thinking to enable thinking" card.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Requia ☣ on April 07, 2008, 03:06:27 AM
I don't think Thornley and Hill were really harkening back to the other enlightenment religions, that's not to say that they don't share a lot in common, but there's a kind of repeating motif in philosophy religion.

More likely, if they were deriving from anything, it was existentialism.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Vene on April 07, 2008, 03:10:57 AM
Quote from: Requiem on April 07, 2008, 03:06:27 AM
I don't think Thornley and Hill were really harkening back to the other enlightenment religions, that's not to say that they don't share a lot in common, but there's a kind of repeating motif in philosophy religion.

More likely, if they were deriving from anything, it was existentialism.
I thought it came from THC.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 03:11:38 AM
Thornley at least was pretty big into the various "Eastern" religions.  (See his Zenarchy: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/zenarchy.html )

Even to the point of partaking of Zazen.  Lots of buddha references as well.  And of course, Zen (in its original incarnation, pardon the pun) is essentially a continuation of Taoism by Chinese monks who converted to the Buddhist religion when it spread from India, under the premise that it was more, well, Taoist, to do that than staunchly defend the old Taoist ways.

And, as Vene pointed out while I was responding, lots of drugs.  :lol:
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Messier Undertree on April 07, 2008, 03:16:14 AM
I like this person.

And his one line per sentence method of posting appeals to my OCD.

Welcome.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Requia ☣ on April 07, 2008, 03:22:47 AM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 07, 2008, 03:11:38 AM
Thornley at least was pretty big into the various "Eastern" religions.  (See his Zenarchy: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/zenarchy.html )

Even to the point of partaking of Zazen.  Lots of buddha references as well.  And of course, Zen (in its original incarnation, pardon the pun) is essentially a continuation of Taoism by Chinese monks who converted to the Buddhist religion when it spread from India, under the premise that it was more, well, Taoist, to do that than staunchly defend the old Taoist ways.

And, as Vene pointed out while I was responding, lots of drugs.  :lol:

Hmm, the Toaist/buddhist references seem fairly superficial to me, and not in line with what most (westerners) who study the religion get out of it.  Of course, if you run with the theory that Hill and Thornley were more enlightened then most,  and judge it along those lines, they also manage to miss all the BS most people (wetern or otherwise) manage to get out of the enlightenment religions.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 03:30:18 AM
I think the problem is that most people who "study" such religions don't really actually study them.  They read one book about it and then consider themselves masters. 

But like I (implied, sort of, ish), I have no idea whether or not Hill was into the stuff.  My assertions are completely Thornley-based.

One place that I think the zen influence really shows is all the Koans and parable type stuff.

For instance, Zarathud's Enlightenment (http://principiadiscordia.com/book/55.php) and "Zen Story" (http://principiadiscordia.com/book/12.php) are both koan-type parables.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: atrasicarius on April 07, 2008, 04:09:17 AM
I discovered Discordianism a couple of months ago, and I immediately liked it because I had already come to pretty much the same conclusions on my own, and it was nice to see that if I was crazy, at least there were other people crazy in the same way. Welcome.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 07, 2008, 01:09:23 PM
Suffice to say that Hill and Thornley as a whole were not oblivious to Zen/Tao. It seems to me to matter very little whether Thornley was a Zen master before working on PD or not; clearly there are some things in common between Discordianism and Zen, but I like to think Thornley and Hill's philosophy simply works better in the Western, modern/postmodern cultural context. After all, many of us grokked the core of what they were trying to say after just reading PD or even the Wikipedia page about Discordianism. I doubt any of us would grok Zen as easily. And I have yet to meet or even hear of a Japanese or Chinese Discordian. I assume (on no basis whatsoever) that Zen and Tao simply make more sense in Far East cultural contexts.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2008, 01:42:37 PM
I dont know...I found Thornley's descriptions of Zen very easy to understand.  Not that I care for Zen beyond certain aesthetic considerations.

However, for Far East Discordians....how would we know? Has anyone ever bothered to translate the PD into Japanese or Cantonese, and made sure its promoted on sites in those languages?  I know davedim planned to do a Japanese translation...but I havent seen any others.  There are no Hebrew, Arabic, Swahili, Punjabi or Bhasa Indonesia translations of the PD either (there may be a Russian one, however).

Until we actually try, I couldn't possibly comment one way or another.

I have considered translating it into Indonesian and kicking up a storm with their religious nutters, and then rely on the Australian government to save me (think of the fun that would be!) but it not a definite plan yet.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 07, 2008, 01:52:21 PM
I'm under the impression most young intellectual Japanese can read English very well.
As for Hebrew, I know several Israeli Discordians and a couple of us plan to translate BIP and possibly PD some day. But most young Israelis can read English very well.

But that's all beside the point. Of course it's possible there might be Discordians in the Far East... Especially if and when the appropriate translations are done... But what I'm saying is that Zen and Tao would probably make more sense to a Chinese or Japanese person because of the common cultural context... Most of the jokes in PD would be totally lost to someone not familiar with American pop and hippie/beat culture.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on April 07, 2008, 04:00:23 PM
Quote from: st.verbatim on April 07, 2008, 01:52:21 PM
because of the common cultural context... Most of the jokes in PD would be totally lost to someone not familiar with American pop and hippie/beat culture.

The PD, I agree... tends to be a very 1960's American-centric view of Discordianism. However, I think that may be like saying the Old Testament tends to have a very BC Hebrew-centric view of Judaism.  :lulz:

I mean, it does seem that the 'philosophy' (whatever one may make of it) appears heavily founded on the popular counterculture philosophical positions if the pop/hippie/beat culture. Would the creation of an irreligious religion... the 'marijuana of the lunatic fringe'... have been possible without the presence of the post-beat/post-modern culture? That is, without the cultural iconoclasm, the cultural rebellion against everything 'normal' would something like the PD have gone anywhere except in a shoebox with the Honest Book of Truth? I think its an example of having the right memes for the culture at the right time.

I wonder if perhaps, the best 'rewrite' of the PD would be done by people in each subculture, surely the Japanese counterculture would have wildly different memes than the US, Eastern Europe or South America...  Of course, that's the best part about Discordianism in my opinion, unlike most religions that were inspired memes/myths of their culture, we can add to it every few years so that it maintains cultural relevance... thanks in part to our non-prophet status, I think.

Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 07, 2008, 04:05:16 PM
I think what I'm getting at is that there's a core of philosophical thoughts and ideas in Discordianism that might be seen as the "point" of the whole irreligion. So yes, naturally the memes that makes Discordianism Discordian are what they are, even as malleable and evolving as they are, but the deeper realization and enlightenments of Discordianism can -- and likely do -- exist outside of our collective Erisian memepool.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2008, 04:45:52 PM
Put in that way, I can agree.  However, I just wanted to point out just because many Japanese and Israeli students are capable of reading English doesn't mean they will, and even if they do, running across a copy of the Principia doesn't seem too likely.

However, for an interesting side project, we could look at the various memes, myths and archtypes that could be used in various countries and cultures for a Discordian book.  It would be...most rewarding, I think.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on April 07, 2008, 04:52:10 PM
Quote from: st.verbatim on April 07, 2008, 04:05:16 PM
I think what I'm getting at is that there's a core of philosophical thoughts and ideas in Discordianism that might be seen as the "point" of the whole irreligion. So yes, naturally the memes that makes Discordianism Discordian are what they are, even as malleable and evolving as they are, but the deeper realization and enlightenments of Discordianism can -- and likely do -- exist outside of our collective Erisian memepool.

Oh yes, I agree. Crowley said 'when one culture thinks of an idea (Zeus) and another culture thinks of an idea (Odin) these are not two ideas, but one' and Joe Campbell would agree with him.

Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 07, 2008, 05:00:35 PM
As would, interestingly enough, Plato.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on April 07, 2008, 05:05:24 PM
Quote from: st.verbatim on April 07, 2008, 05:00:35 PM
As would, interestingly enough, Plato.

Ah yes, in the Forms ;-)
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 07:20:33 PM
Quote from: st.verbatim on April 07, 2008, 01:52:21 PM
I'm under the impression most young intellectual Japanese can read English very well.
This depends largely on what you qualify as "English".  Weird stuff like the PD would probably only confuse people.  My nihongo skills are sugoku warukunarimashita, especially when it comes to kanji.  Otherwise I would volunteer for this noble task (that is, translating it).

And in fact, it's been my experience that a large part of the Japanese "counter-culture", or at least one of them, is just "America is cool."

But well, there's a reason sites like www.engrish.com are there  :lol:
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2008, 08:06:42 PM
Historically, you could possibly look towards unconventional samurai (such as Miyamoto Muashi), Buddhist monks, the Yakuza etc as embodying ideas of a Japanese counter-culture as well.  In that they defied the norms of their time etc

But that's why I suggested a new thread to discuss such things, if anyone else is interested.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 07, 2008, 08:09:25 PM
I'm definitely intrigued. I don't know if I'll have much to add as far as actual knowledge but you can bet I'll watch the thread intently.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2008, 08:21:06 PM
We'd need to do some heavy research.

When I get back to Uni, I'll see how many academic papers on mythology from various parts of the world I can steal.  After that, it would possibly be an idea to look towards rebellious, crazy and avant-garde figures in the history of that country too, and try to fit them around a Discordian style message.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 08:49:20 PM
Tickster gods and subversion, here we come!
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on April 07, 2008, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 07, 2008, 08:21:06 PM
We'd need to do some heavy research.

When I get back to Uni, I'll see how many academic papers on mythology from various parts of the world I can steal.  After that, it would possibly be an idea to look towards rebellious, crazy and avant-garde figures in the history of that country too, and try to fit them around a Discordian style message.

Cain, do you recall any Eastern stuff from Trickster Makes the World? I don't have it here at the office and can't remember if there was anything Far Eastern in it.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 09:10:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 07, 2008, 08:21:06 PM
We'd need to do some heavy research.

When I get back to Uni, I'll see how many academic papers on mythology from various parts of the world I can steal.

That reminds me, since I don't think it's come up yet:
I'm a librarian at a university.  I can easily grab articles on world mythology and trickster gods, and all sorts of odd things.  Electronic PDF type things, yet.


To edit and clarify this:

Electronic articles from scholarly journals and periodicals, I can usually get as downloadable PDFs.  It depends on whether or not this university or my grad school (I still have access to their databases) has the journal in their collection.  Most of the e-book collections are in some shit-tastic PDF-ripoff format that's only readable online and can't be downloaded short of copy-pasting every single page one at a time.  Which I suppose I can do if there's a page you *really* want to read, but no more than that if only because I enjoy doing things other than copy-pasting out of online books with my time.   :lol:

Let me know article titles, etc. or just a subject area and I can dredge up a ton of academic and scholarly stuff, most likely.

For everything else, there's mastercard Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/).
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2008, 09:27:21 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 07, 2008, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 07, 2008, 08:21:06 PM
We'd need to do some heavy research.

When I get back to Uni, I'll see how many academic papers on mythology from various parts of the world I can steal.  After that, it would possibly be an idea to look towards rebellious, crazy and avant-garde figures in the history of that country too, and try to fit them around a Discordian style message.

Cain, do you recall any Eastern stuff from Trickster Makes the World? I don't have it here at the office and can't remember if there was anything Far Eastern in it.That reminds me, since I don't think it's come up yet:

There was some about Monkey, of the Taoist tradition, but little else.

QuoteThat reminds me, since I don't think it's come up yet:
I'm a librarian at a university.  I can easily grab articles on world mythology and trickster gods, and all sorts of odd things.  Electronic PDF type things, yet.

Swoteness.  I cant think of too many, I have access to JSTOR (or will do again from next Monday) and I'll see if I can find some interesting authors or concepts.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 09:46:29 PM
JSTOR is quite good as a general resource.  I'm not sure how many mythology-based article indexes (indeces!) there are online, since most of them deal with more "practical" matters like medicine, business, math, "library science" etc.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 07, 2008, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 07, 2008, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 07, 2008, 08:21:06 PM
We'd need to do some heavy research.

When I get back to Uni, I'll see how many academic papers on mythology from various parts of the world I can steal.  After that, it would possibly be an idea to look towards rebellious, crazy and avant-garde figures in the history of that country too, and try to fit them around a Discordian style message.

Cain, do you recall any Eastern stuff from Trickster Makes the World? I don't have it here at the office and can't remember if there was anything Far Eastern in it.

Rat, I'm sorry, but I think that entire book was "researched" on the Internet. As a piece of speculative entertainment, it was fun, but as a work of scholarship it was severely, um, handicapped.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 07, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 07, 2008, 08:49:20 PM
Tickster gods and subversion, here we come!

hee hee you said "Tickster"!
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 07, 2008, 10:29:10 PM
Tickster gods are uh... an important part of many um... tribal mythic er... stories and uh... play  :oops:
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 08, 2008, 12:21:34 AM
Tickster gods suck bad blood away from the tribe.  Like leeches, only supernatural.

And they are hard to get rid of, and can only really be removed via fire.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 08, 2008, 01:26:41 AM
And they spread a type of Lyme disease called "AIDS".
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: LMNO on April 08, 2008, 03:37:23 PM
Why has no one said "SPOON!" yet?
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 09, 2008, 12:36:41 AM
A good jumping off point for this, at least from the point of (ahem) trickster gods: wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster_god#Tricksters_in_various_cultures)

I don't think my university has many good databases on mythology.  The larger part are on incredibly dull subjects like "Occupational Therapy" (whatever that is) or business.  Searching should be easier, though, once learning more about subversive myths and mythological figures.

Sad part is I'm now torn between this and wanting to go in and fix up all the wiki articles on Spenser's Fairie Queene...   </nerd>
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Requia ☣ on April 09, 2008, 05:42:48 AM
I might be able to get ahold of some good stuff too if anybody here wants it, the local university library has a fairly extensive mythology section and probably has a fair bit of the journals, and as long as whatever you want isn't in rare collections I can get photocopies and scan/mail em later(there's a cost for this of course, so don't get greedy).  Rare collections has to be copied by hand, so whatever you want had better be *really* good (assuming I can even get into rare collections).
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 09, 2008, 06:20:04 AM
According to some article I was reading, the book "Mythologies" (worldcat link to find in libraries near you: http://worldcat.org/oclc/22346848&tab=holdings ) has a lot of "subversive and exotic" mythological tales in it.  I'll probably check it out tomorrow and remember to take my library card with me in case it looks good.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2008, 01:49:38 PM
Nice work guys.

I'll set up a new thread for this in Think for Yourself, if thats OK?  I left Trickster Makes World back at my flat, so I have to rely on my memory for now, but I'll outline some ideas in the new thread.  Sound good?
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: e on April 09, 2008, 06:26:07 PM
Javol, mon capitan
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: M.K on May 27, 2008, 06:24:33 PM
Discordianism to me: a chaotic, to say the least, ideology/philosophy that always suits one's own needs if he wishes so. I'm especially interested in the concept of the Black Iron Prison and getting out of it.

I've actually started gradually feeling better once I "found" Discordianism. I'm also glad to say that to this day I've got nothing "spiritual" out of Discordianism, only a good warm feeling of some perverted control of myself and a few good conversations with a friend of mine (which is more than other religions/pseudoreligions offer).

And now, maybe not strictly in the topic: the way I see it, GASM is some kind of meme-using discordian troll/prank/propaganda "terrorism" project to get sheep out of their BIP:s. Feel free to discuss.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Lies on May 28, 2008, 03:22:26 PM
I like this OP and want to make sweet, sweet love to his sister.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 16, 2008, 06:02:00 AM
Quote from: Requiem on April 07, 2008, 03:06:27 AM
I don't think Thornley and Hill were really harkening back to the other enlightenment religions, that's not to say that they don't share a lot in common, but there's a kind of repeating motif in philosophy religion.

More likely, if they were deriving from anything, it was existentialism.

Thornley also poked fun at es background in Mormonism, but I think a bit of real Mormon philosophy crept in (the idea of creating/becoming your own god/dess and proclaiming yourself pope/saint, for example).

(To be fair, this post comes from a discussion about this topic I had with my friend Creeper)

The Discordian philosophy of there being objective Reality, which we interpret through our personal-cultural grid as our subjective reality, quite possibly comes from Existentialism's idea that the universe exists outside of personal perspective, and that each individual can chose es own morality that works within that concrete universe.

We believe that existentialism owes a lot to the Biblical book of Ecclesiastes.  Please forgive this oversimplification in ignoring differing points of view and reducing complex philosophical systems into nutshells:

Existentialism: Our lives have no ultimate purpose; everything is meaningless; life is a bore; everything is absurd.  You may choose to eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die; we end in nothingness.  There is no God.

Ecclesiastes:  Our lives have no ultimate purpose; everything is meaningless; life is a bore; everything is absurd.  Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die; we may well end in nothingness.  There is a God.

It's probably for this reason that Christians seldom quote Ecclesiastes, except for the "there's a time for every season" part (which I like).  I find it fascinating that a book of the Christian Bible contradicts much of modern day Christianity.  Principia Discordia uses parts of the Bible and Christian theology/methodology to contradict it too.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 16, 2008, 06:11:05 AM
It is, to me, absurd (probably rightly so) that there are actually serious discussions on the theological and ethical implications of Discordianism. I read the PD, and to me it's pretty obvious these were two wise-asses who had a few spare minutes and wrote down a bunch of unrelated crap and called it a Holy Book, for the hell of it.

There are useful bits and pieces, for sure, but I'd say that signal-to-noise ratio of the PD is no higher than that of the Bible or the Koran or a Bazooka Joe wrapper.

Discordianism, IMHO, isn't a coherent religion or philosophy, but an opportunity for people who would normally never talk to each other to find common ground they'd otherwise never know they had. The emphasis on the absurd and the contradictory as ideas and not as examples is its strong suit. Everyone has disorder in their lives, and that gives Discordianism a pool of potential recruits that includes everybody, not just those who share similar experiences or cultures.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 16, 2008, 06:19:07 AM
Quote from: vexati0n on June 16, 2008, 06:11:05 AM
It is, to me, absurd (probably rightly so) that there are actually serious discussions on the theological and ethical implications of Discordianism. I read the PD, and to me it's pretty obvious these were two wise-asses who had a few spare minutes and wrote down a bunch of unrelated crap and called it a Holy Book, for the hell of it.

There are useful bits and pieces, for sure, but I'd say that signal-to-noise ratio of the PD is no higher than that of the Bible or the Koran or a Bazooka Joe wrapper.

Discordianism, IMHO, isn't a coherent religion or philosophy, but an opportunity for people who would normally never talk to each other to find common ground they'd otherwise never know they had. The emphasis on the absurd and the contradictory as ideas and not as examples is its strong suit. Everyone has disorder in their lives, and that gives Discordianism a pool of potential recruits that includes everybody, not just those who share similar experiences or cultures.

What some people consider "Discordian Philosophy" sometimes seems to me, to have most of its roots in RAW's books rather than the PD. I particularly like RAW's philosophy, but I think, if anything the PD philosophy gets summed up at the end:

Quote
If you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity. From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings. He becomes free to play order games and change them at will. He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it. He becomes free to play neither or both. And as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with good will in his soul and love in his being.

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
     and the wisdom of a child. Hail Eris.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 16, 2008, 06:22:48 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on April 07, 2008, 01:52:21 PM
I'm under the impression most young intellectual Japanese can read English very well.

According to my token Japanese-American friend Fairy Princess Yoshikyoko, English is a standard subject in Japanese schools, possibly because of the strong business ties between Nihon and Amerika.  What is tricky, as I think someone already pointed out, is relating to the cultural references, English puns (which often don't translate well from America to England, let alone Japan), etc.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 16, 2008, 06:39:04 AM
Quote from: vexati0n on June 16, 2008, 06:11:05 AM
It is, to me, absurd (probably rightly so) that there are actually serious discussions on the theological and ethical implications of Discordianism. I read the PD, and to me it's pretty obvious these were two wise-asses who had a few spare minutes and wrote down a bunch of unrelated crap and called it a Holy Book, for the hell of it.

I don't claim to be an expert, but there were dozens of people who worked on it, rewrote it, re-edited, etc. over a period of several years.  The conception of Discordianism came in around 1958; partial drafts of Summa Universalia and The Honest Book of Truth in late 1950s/early 1960s; 1st edition of P.D. in 1965; followed by 2nd and then 3rd in 1969, and then finally 4th edition in March 1970 (yes, I know there's a so-called 5th edition).  I'm sure our Discordian Historian Rev. DrJon has more details on this than I do.

Note that Principia Discordia (4th edition) ends with, "If you think the PRINCIPIA is just a ha-ha, then go read it again."
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 16, 2008, 06:46:23 AM
Quote from: vexati0n on June 16, 2008, 06:11:05 AM
....Discordianism, IMHO, isn't a coherent religion or philosophy, but an opportunity for people who would normally never talk to each other to find common ground they'd otherwise never know they had. The emphasis on the absurd and the contradictory as ideas and not as examples is its strong suit. Everyone has disorder in their lives, and that gives Discordianism a pool of potential recruits that includes everybody, not just those who share similar experiences or cultures.

I like this quote.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 16, 2008, 03:44:46 PM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 16, 2008, 06:39:04 AM
Quote from: vexati0n on June 16, 2008, 06:11:05 AM
It is, to me, absurd (probably rightly so) that there are actually serious discussions on the theological and ethical implications of Discordianism. I read the PD, and to me it's pretty obvious these were two wise-asses who had a few spare minutes and wrote down a bunch of unrelated crap and called it a Holy Book, for the hell of it.

I don't claim to be an expert, but there were dozens of people who worked on it, rewrote it, re-edited, etc. over a period of several years.  The conception of Discordianism came in around 1958; partial drafts of Summa Universalia and The Honest Book of Truth in late 1950s/early 1960s; 1st edition of P.D. in 1965; followed by 2nd and then 3rd in 1969, and then finally 4th edition in March 1970 (yes, I know there's a so-called 5th edition).  I'm sure our Discordian Historian Rev. DrJon has more details on this than I do.

Or at least, that's what the old bastards told us ;-)

Quote
Note that Principia Discordia (4th edition) ends with, "If you think the PRINCIPIA is just a ha-ha, then go read it again."

*nods*

If anything, I think that the Principia and it's writers were espousing an absurdest philosophy. A lot of the concepts of perception and reality tunnels and grids and stuff, seem added post-RAW... but even in the first ed. the concept that life is absurd seems to come through pretty strongly.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: AFK on June 16, 2008, 07:43:58 PM
Honestly, I think it's all common sense.  I mean, I haven't read any RAW or any of the other supposed texts Discordians should read after or before they read the PD.  And as soon as I read the PD it was a total, "Well, Duh" moment.  I completely got it and understood what they were trying to get at.  Indeed, I've since discovered ways to work in these philosophies into my day job, without the stone-age comedy bits.  I mean, the Reality Grids can easily be boiled down into an idea about the how's and why's of different cultures, how they behave and how they interact.  Law of 5s is the basic "Everything is not what it seems" moral.  Nonsense as Salvation the "Don't be so damned serious all the time" meme.  All ideas I've heard or thought before I read the PD, it was just nice to see them all together and presented with some jokes. 
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 16, 2008, 11:51:10 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 16, 2008, 07:43:58 PM
Honestly, I think it's all common sense.  I mean, I haven't read any RAW or any of the other supposed texts Discordians should read after or before they read the PD.  And as soon as I read the PD it was a total, "Well, Duh" moment.  I completely got it and understood what they were trying to get at.  Indeed, I've since discovered ways to work in these philosophies into my day job, without the stone-age comedy bits.  I mean, the Reality Grids can easily be boiled down into an idea about the how's and why's of different cultures, how they behave and how they interact.  Law of 5s is the basic "Everything is not what it seems" moral.  Nonsense as Salvation the "Don't be so damned serious all the time" meme.  All ideas I've heard or thought before I read the PD, it was just nice to see them all together and presented with some jokes. 

Not as common as you may think... for me the PD was a trip into a whole other area of ideas.  But then, my history had been full of Aristotelean TRUTH! Heck, JW's refer to their religion as "The Truth". It's quite common to hear someone say "How long have you been in The Truth?" or "How has The Truth changed your life?" in casual conversation. I came from a reality where there was no question as to the existence of Jesus... in fact, I was sure that they had secular evidence for it. I had no doubt that there was no real evidence for evolution, or that there was any question that the Hebrews may not have been slaves in Egypt. There was no doubt in my mind that the Police were mostly good, that drugs turned you into a fiend, sex addict or murderer and that Wiccans were under the control of the Demons... and yes, I believed that there were Demonized persons, and demonized objects (makes shopping at yard sales tricky). I remember my parents waking me up and having my sisters and I gather everything with Smurfs on it, so they could burn it... because an Elder had called them, in the middle of the night, to warn them that the organization was being alerted... a family had been attacked by Smurfs that had come off the wallpaper and bitten them. The brothers confirmed that "Smurf" was german for demon and was obviously a demonic ploy.

I think that what I experienced, in the months immediately following my first read of the PD... was much like a cabbage waking up to find out its human... or a robot that suddenly figured out it was being fed bad data...

Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: A.N. Other on June 17, 2008, 03:53:17 AM
Discordianism to this one: The only religion in the world that went out of it's own way to make itself confusing and still ended up making more sense then all of the other theologies of the formal religions of the world.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Requia ☣ on June 22, 2008, 02:48:23 AM
I completely failed to get the point the PD was making, and took it at mostly face value, as a piece of absurdism and/or a particularly psychotic branch of paganism.

I actually came tio this forum with the intent of figuring out what the hell was really going on behind it.


Are Jehova's Witnesses really that nuts?
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 23, 2008, 06:53:31 AM
Quote from: Requiem on June 22, 2008, 02:48:23 AM
I completely failed to get the point the PD was making, and took it at mostly face value, as a piece of absurdism and/or a particularly psychotic branch of paganism....

Ironically, it was apparently Discordian co-creator Kerry Thornley who coined the term paganism, at least as it's used today.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 23, 2008, 09:12:17 AM
Seriously? Can you give a source on that? Because I find that fascinating.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2008, 02:06:59 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 23, 2008, 09:12:17 AM
Seriously? Can you give a source on that? Because I find that fascinating.

He invented the term Neo-Paganism, according to Maraget Adler (sp?) in Drawing the Moon, one of the primary sources on Pagan religions in America.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Verbal Mike on June 23, 2008, 02:08:39 PM
That, is pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Discordianism to Me
Post by: Reverend Loveshade on June 25, 2008, 03:23:12 AM
Quote from: Reverend Uncle BadTouch on June 23, 2008, 06:53:31 AM
Quote from: Requiem on June 22, 2008, 02:48:23 AM
I completely failed to get the point the PD was making, and took it at mostly face value, as a piece of absurdism and/or a particularly psychotic branch of paganism....

Ironically, it was apparently Discordian co-creator Kerry Thornley who coined the term paganism, at least as it's used today.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 23, 2008, 09:12:17 AM
Seriously? Can you give a source on that? Because I find that fascinating.

Hopefully I won't get flamed for posting another link, but as you asked...

http://www.amazon.com/Prankster-Conspiracy-Thornley-Inspired-Counterculture/dp/193104466X (http://www.amazon.com/Prankster-Conspiracy-Thornley-Inspired-Counterculture/dp/193104466X) says 'He coined the term "paganism" to describe various nature religions.'  You can buy Thornley's excellent book (which tells more about the background of Discordianism than any book I know of) there, or through some Discordian website or other I won't link to else I'll get flamed.

Reverend "discordia.Uncle BadTouch.org/store" Uncle BadTouch