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Rape

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, July 23, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

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Scribbly

Quote from: Cramulus on November 30, 2011, 09:09:04 PM
I hadn't heard that angle before, and is chilling.

A month or two ago, SNL had this skit about Dominique Strauss-kahn. He goes to prison, is very nervous, and the twist is that the thugged out black convicts want to discuss finances with him. And at the end of the skit he thinks it's all going to be okay -- then they're like, "okay we're going to rape you now"

and the only reason I'd ever seen the skit is that a feminist blogger friend of mine wrote a screeching post about how rape is never ever funny under any circumstances. (And also that it's racist to use SNL's only two black cast members to depict a prison population) She was disgusted that the audience's laughter indicated they thought it would be funny that Dominique Strauss-kahn got prison-raped.

I was kind of annoyed by this position because I did kind of think it was funny... At the time I mentioned that humor is a really powerful defensive weapon. If we can laugh at the monster under the bed, he loses a little of his power over us.

That's not to say that I think it's a particularly funny topic... To my memory, I don't think I've made a rape joke (or a racist joke) in 10+ years. I don't TEND to find them funny. But sometimes they make me laugh, and I can't help that.

In Dominique Strauss-kahn's case, it's funny because he's in jail for sexual assault.. the audience laughs because it seems like he's getting what he deserves. It seems not far out of line with giving somebody the death penalty for killing people, which people joke about all the time. I wonder why rape is more taboo than murder. Is it because rape is more prevalent, and rapists blend in? I wonder.

As a Discordian, I tend to want to push buttons and laugh at forbidden jokes--as long as they're not at somebody's expense. I was one of the assholes telling 9/11 jokes on 9/12. I just wanted to break the ice on everybody's face.

The reporter asked Malaclypse, "why do you deal with so many negatives?"
and Malaclypse answered, "to dispel them."

I tell you this -- from here in, I will probably think twice before laughing at those jokes - funny or not.


A friend of mine did her dissertation at university on the subject of attitudes towards male rape in general, with a focus on prison rape in humor.

The thing is, people trivialize it in their minds because, well, male rape is not as visible or talked about in 'serious' contexts as female rape. People assume that you just sort of shrug it off afterwards and go about your business. The reality is much, much worse.

I forget the statistics she quoted, but male rape has a far greater likelihood of leaving lasting physical damage than female rape. A significant number of young men leave prison and find themselves having to wear diapers for the rest of their lives after suffering horrific prolapse.

I never thought about it either, until she started to explain some of what she was working on to me. I can't laugh at those jokes any more, because every time I think about it I think about how these events ruin lives. I guess everyone knows rape is a traumatic and horrible thing, but for some reason the visceral nature of it just doesn't seem real until you're confronted by it.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Placid Dingo

Xpost from Totse

Prereading

General comments: I guess for me rape jokes seem to generally be in the class of shock humor, where the humor is derived from the fact that the joke itself is inappropriate.

Family Guy is a good example. In the first eposode they make a Jew joke; from the start there's humor taken from the fact that the jokes are a bit borderline. My problem with FG is that at some point the jokes stopped being 'lol a joke about rape' to 'lolrape'. That instead at laughing at the inappropriateness of joke, the scenario of rape itself is treated as funny.

The shock from transgressive humor offers catharsis. There is an awareness of the terrible nature if the dark things in the world. It's a way of saying, I know how horrific this is, and making the joke anyway, and the dissonance between the real thing and the joke is the origin of the humor. This is different to treating something like rape as funny in and of itself. This is the problem I have with IS's 'humor'. That his thoughts of the prevalence and definition of rape are disconnected from reality is telling; his jokes aren't transgressive, they're ignorant and rather than acting as a cultural code for dealing with the horrible truth, they help to promote an ignorance of the truth.

Post reading

Not a lot to add after reading, except I tend to agree; avoiding normalizing rape in the presence of men who have that attitude is a good reason to be careful. In my experience men don't really talk about rape - even without the r word - and maybe there's an element of fear in the conversation, that someone in the room might have taken home a girl too drink to say no, or some other scenario, and we don't want to risk having that sense of uncertainty with a friend.

PD exclusive

The snl skit is a double subversion. Were all pop culture literate enough to know two black guys one white in prison is the start of a rape scene. To subvert it is the first joke, to resubvert at the end is the second.
Is it funny? Maybe it is (haven't seen), but just being funny doesn't mean its appropriate or the right thing to out on tv.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Jenne

I remember that SNL skit and I remember thinking at the time, Wow.  Ballsy.  And not cool.  But then, I'm sensitive to that shit ever since my dad went away.

I think WE, HERE at PD can reason away why jokes about taboo subjects can be "ok" or "not ok"...but I question the level of meta-thinking your average Joe will indulge in over the matter.  I think most humor is learned, just like I think most bigotry against folks is learned, and I think most folks KNOW that rape is wrong without needing to know anyone who went through it.

Male on male rape is one of those ills of Western civ you just don't hear about to the degree it lives with you the way male on female does, just like incest is known, but the degree to which is happens would probably shock most folks who believe it's a rare entity.  It's not.  "Prison rape" gets the treatment it does because folks tend to not see an inmate as a victim.  They "deserve what they get" because they are incarcerated.  Every evil that visits them is what they get in return for their misdeeds, regardless of circumstance.

So to humanize the inmate would mean that we treat that person as we would ourselves--wanting the best possible for them.  Society demonizes inmates and treats them like they don't deserve anything but badwrong anything, badwrong medical practices, badwrong food, badwrong conditions.  Why not add rape into the mix and then laugh HA HA buttrape is funny HA HA?

I think throughout history, you'll see that dehumanizing the victim in a heinous act will actually allow those of us who would otherwise change that act or make it less acceptable to hold off and hold back.  That's not to say we sanction it, but neither do we actively participate in its demise, either.

I know I'm saying something a little bold, here, but I can't remember how many times I've heard "I hope you meet 'Bubba' in jail and get what you deserve"...what does that say?  That we HOPE that people get their asses torn up.  As punishment.  I'm sure it's said in jest, I'm sure those saying it don't actually literally hope that, but it would certainly be a different proposition altogether if someone said to a woman, "I hope you're met by a gang of rapists in the dark of night and ridden till the cows come home."

Jenne

And then I want to address the "most men are rapists and in fact hold back" statement because I've heard it too.  I think Muslim men are actually taught this, and that's a large part of the justification for hiding their wives and girl children.  That men are really beasts inside that can't hold themselves back, and to present a woman in any form except covered so that you really can't tell if she's a man or woman undearneath everything, is to wave her vagina in his face as if it's for the taking.  Right here, right now.

It's a shocking idea, to me, because I wasn't raised to think of men or boys as that impulsive.  I was raised to think people might have self-control issues, and there were those sick assholes who wanted to hurt people because of opportunity, let alone motive.  But I was not raised to think men patrolled the streets thinking of who they could sexually take advantage of just because they were in the general vicinity.

But from what I've heard Afghans say, this is very much their upbringing.  And this is why women are to be not even seen let alone heard if the men in the room are not their relatives.

Now, of course, this covers up all sorts of ugly underbelly no one in Afghan society wants to deal with.  Like the ritual rape and sexual slavery of boys, for example.  Who get to be around lascivious old farts that can ass rape them at will because they want to and have money to pay their families.

Or the complete subjugation of girls as soon as they're married.

Yeah, so anyway...I think it might also be a cultural ill here, too.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Good posts, both of you. Really good points.

I think that a huge part of our cultural problem here is that we live in a society where the prevailing moral code is that it's OK if you can get away with it. Everything is viewed as material goods... including sex. I think the commodification of sex as something that can be bought, sold, given, or taken, is part of the rape issue. Even our language, right down to the way I'm talking about it right now, perpetuates the perception of sex as an object and not as a process.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Jenne

It's a difficult nut to crack.  In looking at the problem, one wants to blame and keep it away from oneself at the same time.  I don't have the answers except to raise my boys to not see subjugation of women as a good thing.  Or subjugation of themselves or anyone else for that matter.  That the innocent are to be protected and that the black and white cloak society places on things can sometimes just hide what's real underneath.

Truth and honesty about people, and acceptance they are people without having to accept their badness, it's a hard thing to teach.  Hard thing to live.  

Mostly because I'm really a judgemental bitch.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Golden Applesauce

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

If putting fishhooks in your vagina is a reasonable response to anything, something is deeply, deeply wrong with the place where you live.
Q: How regularly do you hire 8th graders?
A: We have hired a number of FORMER 8th graders.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on December 02, 2011, 04:24:57 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

If putting fishhooks in your vagina is a reasonable response to anything, something is deeply, deeply wrong with the place where you live.


Considering that there's a need to hand these out like government cheese, yes, I think I'll be staying out of South Africa.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 04:49:25 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on December 02, 2011, 04:24:57 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

If putting fishhooks in your vagina is a reasonable response to anything, something is deeply, deeply wrong with the place where you live.


Considering that there's a need to hand these out like government cheese, yes, I think I'll be staying out of South Africa.

I don't know how it is in SA, but in areas with ex-child soldiers, many of the men having grown up in these conditions treat sex with a sense of entitlement, regardless of consent, so what lawyers call 'real rape' (easy to prove rape; strange man forcing a woman into sex) may be more common. Not sure.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Jenne

Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

Anna Mae Bollocks

They need to make vagina dentata with a spring. Like a rat trap.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

trippinprincezz13

Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

I hadn't heard about the machete thing . That's just.... :x 

But about the vagina dentata thing. As hilarious and needed as it may be, if I was a rapist with a penis and got it slashed on something in a woman's vagina, I'd imagine I would want to kill the shit out of the nearest living thing to me, that being the woman who caused this with her penis trap. I mean, seriously though, I would imagine the shock and pain would cause an instant surge of rage in many people. I'm not trying to say that rape isn't horrible, but would something like this end up causing more murders/brutal beatings instead of "just" rapes? Or are things so horrible over there (I know, the machetes), that it's worth the risk of the rapist maybe retaliating more violently?
There's no sun shine coming through her ass, if you are sure of your penis.

Paranoia is a disease unto itself, and may I add, the person standing next to you, may not be who they appear to be, so take precaution.

If there is no order in your sexual life it may be difficult to stay with a whole skin.

Anna Mae Bollocks

#88
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 06, 2011, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

I hadn't heard about the machete thing . That's just.... :x  

But about the vagina dentata thing. As hilarious and needed as it may be, if I was a rapist with a penis and got it slashed on something in a woman's vagina, I'd imagine I would want to kill the shit out of the nearest living thing to me, that being the woman who caused this with her penis trap. I mean, seriously though, I would imagine the shock and pain would cause an instant surge of rage in many people. I'm not trying to say that rape isn't horrible, but would something like this end up causing more murders/brutal beatings instead of "just" rapes? Or are things so horrible over there (I know, the machetes), that it's worth the risk of the rapist maybe retaliating more violently?

I can't find a link, but there was a case in the 90's where some guy broke into an elderly woman's house and tried to rape her. She pretended to be into it and got his dick in one hand and his balls in the other and twisted them in two different directions, she said she "wrung it out like a washrag". He smacked her in the head a time or two but she held on and walked him downstairs like that and made him call the police on himself.  :lulz:

Dick injuries seem to be different from regular injuries.  :p
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

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Thread is split, and merged with the Fang thread, which is now the T2 thread.
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