Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Principia Discussion => Topic started by: NWC on December 13, 2010, 08:37:05 PM

Title: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: NWC on December 13, 2010, 08:37:05 PM

So, as we often see here on this board, many people find the Principia, read it, and then swear by it. While reading some stuff on Wittgenstein lately, I came across something he wrote at the end of this Tractacus that seemed quite relevant to this situation. It was his belief that his, and any other, philosophy, should be considered as a ladder. You climb the ladder to get a better view of your surroundings, but then you don't stay up there, you get down and get on with your life. My personal addition to this concept is that each philosophy is a ladder that will show you a different secion of the landscape, and so you can climd as many as you wish in order to get varied views, and then remember what you've seen, but move on.

Andre Compte-Sponville, in his books L'Amour, la Solitude, referenced a slightly different version of this, which apparently comes from the Buddhist tradition. The Buddha, arriving at a river, building himself a raft to cross it. Once built, the raft serves its purpose of bringing him to the other side. However, having crossed the river, the Buddha would not continue to carry the raft on his back, which would only weigh him down.


So yeah, once the Principia has served its purpose, the pineal crap should be left behind. Not saying I don't still get a laugh out of the pentabarf, but come on.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: hooplala on December 13, 2010, 09:01:31 PM
I would firmly agree with that.

It should inform your life, not become your life.  It's my primary objection to monastery living.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: NWC on December 14, 2010, 02:44:52 PM
I know it's anything but revolutionary on this board to reject the strict adherence to the Principia, or the application of the pineal crap everywhere, but the reason I felt like it was a good idea to write this out is to not discredit that which one can take from the book.

For me, the Principia helped me get across a river, but I left it at opposite shore once I'd arrived there.


Also they're just useful metaphors that are worth sharing to anyone, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: hooplala on December 14, 2010, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: NWC on December 14, 2010, 02:44:52 PM
I know it's anything but revolutionary on this board to reject the strict adherence to the Principia, or the application of the pineal crap everywhere, but the reason I felt like it was a good idea to write this out is to not discredit that which one can take from the book.

For me, the Principia helped me get across a river, but I left it at opposite shore once I'd arrived there.


Also they're just useful metaphors that are worth sharing to anyone, in my opinion.

I also agree with this, me too.  Sorry I don't have much more to contribute to the conversation, you pretty much said what I would say.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Cramulus on December 14, 2010, 03:02:08 PM
It's sad, but you're right. One day I will move on from this. Johnny Brainwash calls himself a "post-Discordian" in the same kind of been there done that vibe that many of us call ourselves "Post-Occult". I think I'm ready for it though, I could be something else if I found something else worth being.

I saw a line the other day on a message board, somebody had said that they were a Discordian, and somebody else said something to the effect of, "If you took it seriously enough to identify with, you are honestly missing the point." and I giggled because of course this spag has no authority when it comes to what stupid shit I believe, but he has a point in some sense, there will be a time when it's hard to still call it a joke.

I have this zealot tendency. Back when I was a Christian (we're talking early teen here) I was relatively faithful. When I was an atheist I was fucking serious about atheism. When I called myself a Taoist I couldn't goddamn shut up about the Tao. (embarrassed about that in hindsight, it was a lot of blah blah blah). And now I'm a Discordian and fuck me if I'm not yammering on about it more than 80% of the other people who are bent out of shape about this in-joke from the 1960s. I don't know what my problem is, I think I'm just a religious nutjob with a healthy mistrust for organization. In a parallel universe I am rocking out buddha style in monastic silence. In another parallel universe I am an ordained protestant minister.

And this is the main thing holding me back from getting the Chao tattooed to me, it's that I want to stay like water, fluid, able to change form completely at the drop of a hat, and be a different kind of nutjob tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: hooplala on December 14, 2010, 03:13:35 PM
Just to be clear, I don't consider myself past Discordianism... I just don't feel the need to think about it constantly anymore.  It informs my world view, and that is enough for me.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: LMNO on December 14, 2010, 03:15:40 PM
I think that you can still "be" a Discordian, or at least self-identify, without holding on to much of the trappings it originally came in.  

The way I see it, there are a few principles: Don't be afraid of disorder, keep asking questions, and take responsibility for your own Fun™.

Because it is what it is, we can swap out different projections of these principles as we see fit, or in ways that make the most sense to us at the moment, be it Pinealism or Horrormirth.



NWC's insight holds true for a lot of things, and without putting words in his mouth, I would paraphrase thusly:

"Your experiences should guide, but not dictate, your behavior."

What you learn as you go through life, be it good or bad, in books or in the street, whether you agree or reject it, will end up affecting how you act and what you think.  But don't let that experience dominate your behavior above all other things.

Or, perhaps a BIP metaphor:

"You won't get very far by constantly staring at a single brick in your cell."
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Phox on December 14, 2010, 03:20:32 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 14, 2010, 03:15:40 PM
I think that you can still "be" a Discordian, or at least self-identify, without holding on to much of the trappings it originally came in.  

The way I see it, there are a few principles: Don't be afraid of disorder, keep asking questions, and take responsibility for your own Fun™.

Because it is what it is, we can swap out different projections of these principles as we see fit, or in ways that make the most sense to us at the moment, be it Pinealism or Horrormirth.



NWC's insight holds true for a lot of things, and without putting words in his mouth, I would paraphrase thusly:

"Your experiences should guide, but not dictate, your behavior."

What you learn as you go through life, be it good or bad, in books or in the street, whether you agree or reject it, will end up affecting how you act and what you think.  But don't let that experience dominate your behavior above all other things.

Or, perhaps a BIP metaphor:

"You won't get very far by constantly staring at a single brick in your cell."
:motorcycle:
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Epimetheus on December 15, 2010, 03:27:33 AM
I haven't heard the ladder analogy, but I like it and I'll remember it.
The concept of both metaphors is very refreshing and important to remember (one might even say cling to ;) ).
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 15, 2010, 04:42:55 AM
I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: NWC on December 15, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 04:42:55 AM
I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 14, 2010, 03:15:40 PM
I think that you can still "be" a Discordian, or at least self-identify, without holding on to much of the trappings it originally came in. 

This sums up pretty well what I would have said. I still consider myself a Discordian as well, as I still appreciate and apply the thought patters that Discordianism brought me. That doesn't mean, however, that I continue to read the texts that originally taught me those thought patterns. I kept the form while leaving behind the material.

Quote from: Cramulus on December 14, 2010, 03:02:08 PMAnd this is the main thing holding me back from getting the Chao tattooed to me, it's that I want to stay like water, fluid, able to change form completely at the drop of a hat, and be a different kind of nutjob tomorrow.

The reason I got the chao tattooed on my leg is the very opposite. I knew that I would change, I knew that in the future I could be vastly different than what I was, but I understood that the chao represented something very important for me that I didn't want to forget. So if I end up someday, through some bizarre turn of events, as a businessman in a corporation, I don't want to be able to forget the ideas that are inextricably linked to my ankle. Identity preservation insurance, if you will. I never want to be without the joy of nonsense.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 15, 2010, 08:13:31 AM
I like to re-read the PD every once in a while simply because I find new things in it every time I do. Underneath the silliness there is a whole lot of not-silliness, and I've found it worth it to read it a few times in order to get at the not-silliness.

Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: LMNO on December 15, 2010, 12:50:57 PM
Yeah, it's front-loaded with silliness. But about a third of the way through, it starts getting a little heavier.  Next time I read it, I think I'll go back-to-front, and see what I pick up.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Triple Zero on December 15, 2010, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 04:42:55 AM
I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.

Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: AFK on December 15, 2010, 01:18:23 PM
For me, the PD was something of a catalyst.  That is, when I read it, it wasn't really one of those "Eureka" moments.  It sort of brought together a lot of thoughts and philosophies I already had, but hadn't quite pieced together.  It was like, I realized I was always a Discordian.  I just hadn't ever had a proper title for it.  It crystallized for me so many of the reasons I left the Christian faith of my youth for a more expansive, self-regulated and self-determined religion/spirituality. 

As for the book itself, it's been awhile since I've read it.  But there are parts that resonate with me in particular and I suspect they are the same passages that resonate with many of you.  Nonsense as Salvation, Sermon on Ethics and Love, the Sacred Chao (text)/Reality grids, and of course Greyface. 

I still think of myself as a Discordian.  I don't really go around telling other people I'm a Discordian.  I generally avoid the discussion of religion around friends and family as it doesn't seem to be a very fruitful discussion. 

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this anymore so I'll stop right about here. 
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Phox on December 15, 2010, 01:40:02 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2010, 01:18:23 PM
For me, the PD was something of a catalyst.  That is, when I read it, it wasn't really one of those "Eureka" moments.  It sort of brought together a lot of thoughts and philosophies I already had, but hadn't quite pieced together.  It was like, I realized I was always a Discordian.  I just hadn't ever had a proper title for it.  It crystallized for me so many of the reasons I left the Christian faith of my youth for a more expansive, self-regulated and self-determined religion/spirituality. 

This. I do, however, have no qualms with stating that I am a Discordian. In fact, I need to print out some more pamphlets to hand out to those fundy Christian a-holes who always seem to think I need religion.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: hooplala on December 15, 2010, 02:14:39 PM
Yeah, saying your're a Discordian to a Christian fundie, and then having to explain it, always makes for a much different religious conversation than it might standardly be.  It always seems to throw off all but the completely mind-numbed sort.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Cramulus on December 15, 2010, 02:17:36 PM
True! It's fun to watch their gears turn. They want to proselytize to you but they don't know where to start. Last time a Jehovah's Witness came to my door, they gave me an awkward "Uhh I never heard of that! I hope that works out for you!"
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: LMNO on December 15, 2010, 02:17:55 PM
Most religious people I talk about it with (not just xtians) usually try to play it off as, "oh, it's more of a philosophy."

As if that means it's somehow a lesser idea than a religion, or something.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: AFK on December 15, 2010, 02:21:26 PM
Seems to me that the difference between religion and philosophy is that religions have mascots.  Otherwise, they're kind of trying to do the same thing.  Figure out and explain what all of this crap around us is all about. 
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: hooplala on December 15, 2010, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 15, 2010, 02:17:55 PM
Most religious people I talk about it with (not just xtians) usually try to play it off as, "oh, it's more of a philosophy."

As if that means it's somehow a lesser idea than a religion, or something.

When I am talking to a rabid christian, I tend to claim I actually believe in Eris as a genuine goddess... for kicks.  I'm a bad widdle boy.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Phox on December 15, 2010, 07:03:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 15, 2010, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 15, 2010, 02:17:55 PM
Most religious people I talk about it with (not just xtians) usually try to play it off as, "oh, it's more of a philosophy."

As if that means it's somehow a lesser idea than a religion, or something.

When I am talking to a rabid christian, I tend to claim I actually believe in Eris as a genuine goddess... for kicks.  I'm a bad widdle boy.

Me too. Good spot o' fun, innit?  :lulz:
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: hooplala on December 15, 2010, 07:08:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 15, 2010, 07:03:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 15, 2010, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 15, 2010, 02:17:55 PM
Most religious people I talk about it with (not just xtians) usually try to play it off as, "oh, it's more of a philosophy."

As if that means it's somehow a lesser idea than a religion, or something.

When I am talking to a rabid christian, I tend to claim I actually believe in Eris as a genuine goddess... for kicks.  I'm a bad widdle boy.

Me too. Good spot o' fun, innit?  :lulz:

That it is indeed.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 15, 2010, 08:06:47 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 15, 2010, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2010, 04:42:55 AM
I am definitely still a Discordian after however many years it's been, and to me that means looking for new information and perspectives; constantly seeking to surprise myself and others.

Why am I not surprised?

:cry:
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Telarus on December 16, 2010, 12:01:02 AM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 15, 2010, 07:03:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 15, 2010, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 15, 2010, 02:17:55 PM
Most religious people I talk about it with (not just xtians) usually try to play it off as, "oh, it's more of a philosophy."

As if that means it's somehow a lesser idea than a religion, or something.

When I am talking to a rabid christian, I tend to claim I actually believe in Eris as a genuine goddess... for kicks.  I'm a bad widdle boy.

Me too. Good spot o' fun, innit?  :lulz:

Hahaha, me too. Well, I guess technically, I start to "believe it" while I have the discussion. I'm used to working in that model for certain things.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: geekdad on December 16, 2010, 04:50:05 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2010, 01:18:23 PM
For me, the PD was something of a catalyst.  That is, when I read it, it wasn't really one of those "Eureka" moments.  It sort of brought together a lot of thoughts and philosophies I already had, but hadn't quite pieced together.  It was like, I realized I was always a Discordian.  I just hadn't ever had a proper title for it.  It crystallized for me so many of the reasons I left the Christian faith of my youth for a more expansive, self-regulated and self-determined religion/spirituality. 

As for the book itself, it's been awhile since I've read it.  But there are parts that resonate with me in particular and I suspect they are the same passages that resonate with many of you.  Nonsense as Salvation, Sermon on Ethics and Love, the Sacred Chao (text)/Reality grids, and of course Greyface. 

I still think of myself as a Discordian.  I don't really go around telling other people I'm a Discordian.  I generally avoid the discussion of religion around friends and family as it doesn't seem to be a very fruitful discussion. 

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this anymore so I'll stop right about here. 

This sums up my feelings and past exactly.

As far as philosopies as ladders analogy, I like it but don't think it quite fits.

There are times that instead of it being a ladder it's a compass, showing where to go. Each ideology or philosophy has a compass that points in different directions (with similar ones pointing to similer places). It depends on yourself to know what direction you want. If you go too far in one direction, then you pick up a different philosophy that points closer to the place you want to be.

Now that I've taken that analogy to the breaking point I'll also stop.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: flipdog on December 21, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Quote from: geekdad on December 16, 2010, 04:50:05 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2010, 01:18:23 PM
For me, the PD was something of a catalyst.  That is, when I read it, it wasn't really one of those "Eureka" moments.  It sort of brought together a lot of thoughts and philosophies I already had, but hadn't quite pieced together.  It was like, I realized I was always a Discordian.  I just hadn't ever had a proper title for it.  It crystallized for me so many of the reasons I left the Christian faith of my youth for a more expansive, self-regulated and self-determined religion/spirituality. 

As for the book itself, it's been awhile since I've read it.  But there are parts that resonate with me in particular and I suspect they are the same passages that resonate with many of you.  Nonsense as Salvation, Sermon on Ethics and Love, the Sacred Chao (text)/Reality grids, and of course Greyface. 

I still think of myself as a Discordian.  I don't really go around telling other people I'm a Discordian.  I generally avoid the discussion of religion around friends and family as it doesn't seem to be a very fruitful discussion. 

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this anymore so I'll stop right about here. 

This sums up my feelings and past exactly.

As far as philosopies as ladders analogy, I like it but don't think it quite fits.

There are times that instead of it being a ladder it's a compass, showing where to go. Each ideology or philosophy has a compass that points in different directions (with similar ones pointing to similer places). It depends on yourself to know what direction you want. If you go too far in one direction, then you pick up a different philosophy that points closer to the place you want to be.

Now that I've taken that analogy to the breaking point I'll also stop.

so it's more like a hill, or maybe a mountain, in that you can go up, have a look around, but then go back down again in whichever direction you choose. whenever my mind has had a new bending, i usually go down in a slightly differing direction, because if i go back down to where i was before, it's a bit disorienting.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Slyph on January 25, 2011, 12:23:43 PM
Truly, I'm pleased that you have explained to me that I don't have to live my life by the Principia Discordia. Shit, dodged a bullet there eh?
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Telarus on January 25, 2011, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: Slyph on January 25, 2011, 12:23:43 PM
Truly, I'm pleased that you have explained to me that I don't have to live my life by the Principia Discordia. Shit, dodged a bullet there eh?

It's really fun to do for short periods, just don't make it a habit.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Ratssinis on January 30, 2011, 08:29:06 PM
Quote from: Telarus on January 25, 2011, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: Slyph on January 25, 2011, 12:23:43 PM
Truly, I'm pleased that you have explained to me that I don't have to live my life by the Principia Discordia. Shit, dodged a bullet there eh?

It's really fun to do for short periods, just don't make it a habit.

I can agree with that, seems every-time you come back and look there's a little more to it then before. Which I guess makes Discordia a pretty unique ladder, what with the getting taller and taller thing... Maybe its a human ladder?
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Slyph on January 30, 2011, 08:56:53 PM
I'm always really nice to Witnesses. I don't know why. I just figure, fuck it. Anyone can be rude to a Jehovah's Witness. I think being nice to Christians shows them they don't have a monopoly on civility, you know?
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Telarus on January 31, 2011, 12:48:04 AM
Quote from: Ratssinis on January 30, 2011, 08:29:06 PM
Quote from: Telarus on January 25, 2011, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: Slyph on January 25, 2011, 12:23:43 PM
Truly, I'm pleased that you have explained to me that I don't have to live my life by the Principia Discordia. Shit, dodged a bullet there eh?

It's really fun to do for short periods, just don't make it a habit.

I can agree with that, seems every-time you come back and look there's a little more to it then before. Which I guess makes Discordia a pretty unique ladder, what with the getting taller and taller thing... Maybe its a human ladder?

We stand on the shoulders of Crazy Giants. (or Giant Crazies?)
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: Kai on January 31, 2011, 12:14:27 PM
Quote from: NWC on December 13, 2010, 08:37:05 PM

So, as we often see here on this board, many people find the Principia, read it, and then swear by it. While reading some stuff on Wittgenstein lately, I came across something he wrote at the end of this Tractacus that seemed quite relevant to this situation. It was his belief that his, and any other, philosophy, should be considered as a ladder. You climb the ladder to get a better view of your surroundings, but then you don't stay up there, you get down and get on with your life. My personal addition to this concept is that each philosophy is a ladder that will show you a different secion of the landscape, and so you can climd as many as you wish in order to get varied views, and then remember what you've seen, but move on.

Andre Compte-Sponville, in his books L'Amour, la Solitude, referenced a slightly different version of this, which apparently comes from the Buddhist tradition. The Buddha, arriving at a river, building himself a raft to cross it. Once built, the raft serves its purpose of bringing him to the other side. However, having crossed the river, the Buddha would not continue to carry the raft on his back, which would only weigh him down.


So yeah, once the Principia has served its purpose, the pineal crap should be left behind. Not saying I don't still get a laugh out of the pentabarf, but come on.

The Christians also have a saying about "coming down from the mountain", which also fits.

I don't agree with the title though. It's nice to have references on the shelf. After I finish the TaNaKh and conclude that the ancient israelites and their god were deceitful, violent desert dwellers that somehow lead to more well meaning people, I'm not going to throw it out. It's in my head, no matter how hard I try to move on, and therefore in a way I own it, and have to be responsible for that ownership.
Title: Re: Ladder/Raft, or, Read The Book, Then Burn It
Post by: NWC on January 31, 2011, 02:13:24 PM
The title was more of a metaphor than anything else. I still have a 6 year old copy of the principia in my bookshelf, hanging out between Illuminatus! and Merleau-Ponty.