Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Principia Discussion => Topic started by: Cainad (dec.) on January 10, 2010, 09:40:56 PM

Title: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 10, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Discordians, especially PD.com-flavored Discordians, are notorious for disagreeing with each other about pretty much everything, up to and including the details of the pseudoreligion that they are nominally all members of (in some sense). Whether Discordians should stick apart or organize for greater hilarity, whether or not Eris should be thought of as an actual deity, or whether or not to pray to Her, and all sorts of things that the PD itself likes to be ambiguous about (and even when it's not ambiguous, a Discordian is supposedly forbidden from believing what he reads, so...); all this and more are up for grabs in a theoLOLgical Discordian discussion.


But one thing that I have never seen challenged in my time here is the notion that Everything (capital "E") is Chaos (capital "C"), and that Order and Disorder are illusions created by our own pattern-seeking minds.

When I first read the PD, this seemed self-evident. But I am no longer in that headspace, and now I wonder why we never argue this point. It's often used to back up another argument, and frequently used to clear up ambiguity about when something should be described as "chaos" or as "disorder," since the two are often used interchangeably among people who don't share our fucked-up worldview.

Not sure where I was going with this, but it's something that's been squatting in my brain for a while and it won't go away. I guess I'm just not comfortable knowing that there's something Discordians have yet to argue about; gotta poke it with a stick, you know?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 10, 2010, 09:47:38 PM
It's all chaos, which encompasses order and disorder.

The word chaos is often misused.

The end.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 10, 2010, 09:52:45 PM
Works for me. Now to find someone who disagrees; I got an itch to scratch.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: The Johnny on January 11, 2010, 12:35:13 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 10, 2010, 09:47:38 PM
It's all chaos, which encompasses order and disorder.

The word chaos is often misused.

The end.

:lulz: nice. If only this could be done in the magic thread.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2010, 03:26:22 AM
Quote from: Cainad on January 10, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Discordians, especially PD.com-flavored Discordians, are notorious for disagreeing with each other about pretty much everything, up to and including the details of the pseudoreligion that they are nominally all members of (in some sense).

No we aren't.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 11, 2010, 04:04:01 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2010, 03:26:22 AM
Quote from: Cainad on January 10, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Discordians, especially PD.com-flavored Discordians, are notorious for disagreeing with each other about pretty much everything, up to and including the details of the pseudoreligion that they are nominally all members of (in some sense).

No we aren't.

Oh, yeah? Well, what's the root word of Discordianism, then? Huh? Huh?

That's right, it's disco. And there is nothing more disagreeable than disco.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2010, 09:53:42 AM
OK, the thing is, essentially, if we don't agree that Chaos is a stand-in/co-equivalent to "Everything" and everything is made up of "order" and "disorder" then we have to

a) come up with another meaning for chaos, and
b) come up with a meaning for things that are neither chaos, nor order, nor disorder
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 11, 2010, 11:31:31 AM
*passes the wine about* Think it'd take a bit of that
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 11, 2010, 01:06:10 PM
Ok, here's something to argue about: Our definition of "Chaos" adheres to neither the social nor the mathematic definition.

So why the heck are we calling it "Chaos", anyway?  Eris is a STRIFE goddess, not an "All-Encompassing-Summation of Universe" goddess.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: AFK on January 11, 2010, 01:24:02 PM
Well, there is always the possibility/certain likelihood that the human concept of "Everything" isn't actually all inclusive.
I mean, yeah, we say up front that as humans we can't see, witness, experience everything.  Indeed, we say up front we can't really even conceptualize "Everything".  There's shit that we just haven't thought of, and can't think of.  But indeed, perhaps the idea of "Everything" itself is limited.  But we can't really even begin to contemplate that.  

This, I believe, is why so many go right from question to deity.  I mean, when you start thinking about the idea that what you are experiencing is likely .0000000001% of the whole she-bang, AND that you'll never really be able to define the parameters of the whole she-bang.  It's just easier to turn over all of your thinking and beliefs to a magical beardo-fairy.  
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Triple Zero on January 11, 2010, 01:30:03 PM
afaik, Eris is only sort of a sub-goddess of chaos, and more the goddess of Discord and Strife.

the idea that all is chaos, in a spiritual/mythological manner, is also from several creation myths from different religions.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

in the bible, Genesis 2: first "And the earth was without form, and void", which I consider to be equivalent with Chaos, because after that God needs to start separating things, order from disorder, day from night, water from land etc.

and then there's Mummu, about which I only have read in the Illuminatus Trilogy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummu] which was also described as primordial chaos, but from that wiki page I gather RAW might have made this up (anyone? wiki's not very elaborate about it either).

and hindu ... I thought Brahman (not Brahma) was also Chaos but that's not quite true either (might be another mindfuck seed planted by RAW?) either way check it out, Brahman is like totally way cool like a sort of combo of Ayin-Soph-Aur and the first two sephiroth, sort of [at first glanced] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman



either way, my view of it is that Eris only embodies Chaos in part, Chaos is larger than Eris.

and Chaos as order+disorder, makes sense to me, cause Chaos is formless, and if it's not just disorder, but so formless that you haven't even distinguished yet between order or disorder, I mean, you can't really get much more formless than that, right?

and yeah, from a creation point of view it also makes sense, it kind of says that creation was already there except it wasnt divided into order and disorder yet, and for that reason it also didn't exist? sorry I'm not really good at wording that, so never mind. it makes sense in my head though.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 02:03:55 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 11, 2010, 01:06:10 PM
Ok, here's something to argue about: Our definition of "Chaos" adheres to neither the social nor the mathematic definition.

So why the heck are we calling it "Chaos", anyway?  Eris is a STRIFE goddess, not an "All-Encompassing-Summation of Universe" goddess.

The re-defining of the word chaos is what makes Discordianism a religion to me.  A lot of religions re-define words for their own use, don't they?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Triple Zero on January 11, 2010, 02:15:26 PM
You mean words like "spirituality"? ;-)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2010, 02:19:44 PM
Trip, I actually thought of chaos more as a dialectic overcoming of order and disorder, sort of a synthesis of the two.  Because to me, pure disorder indicates no order at all (at its most theoretical extreme) whereas pure order indicates no disorder at all (at its most theoretical extreme), whereas in any truly random system, ie chaos, order is always going to arise, if only temporarily and contingently, before being overcome, dissolved or whatever.  Chaos in this sense is sort of the middle path between the two, but also, because of its contradictory nature, a set or category above order and disorder.

If you see what I mean.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2010, 02:22:02 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 11, 2010, 01:06:10 PM
Ok, here's something to argue about: Our definition of "Chaos" adheres to neither the social nor the mathematic definition.

So why the heck are we calling it "Chaos", anyway?  Eris is a STRIFE goddess, not an "All-Encompassing-Summation of Universe" goddess.

You have a good point about Eris being the Goddess of Strife, and of Discord, not of Chaos.

However, you are dead fucking wrong about our definition of "Chaos" not adhering to the mathematic definition.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: AFK on January 11, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Well, my particular definition of "Chaos" would recognize that a mathematical definition of "Chaos" is just another human attempt to understand that which it can never completely understand.  It's a nice attempt, but most likely doesn't really come close to "Actuality". 
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
When I say Chaos I am talking about Chaos as used in Greek Mythology.

Edith Hamilton:

“First there was chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss, outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, and wild... From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless."

Chaos is the initial state of things, how they exist pre-thought. What they look like when they're off-stage. Chaos is the state of the unknowable future.

Eris is our patroness because deep down I want to live in a balanced world, and there's too much Order right now. Eris wants us to build up the order until there's a breaking point, called Aftermath, and the cycle returns to the season of Chaos.

To me, Eris is the Goddess of Chaos because she reveals that order and disorder are both illusion. She prefers Disorder right now, again, because we live in Orderville. But deep down she wants balance - hence the symbol of the Sacred Chao.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2010, 02:34:14 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 11, 2010, 02:26:39 PM
Well, my particular definition of "Chaos" would recognize that a mathematical definition of "Chaos" is just another human attempt to understand that which it can never completely understand.  It's a nice attempt, but most likely doesn't really come close to "Actuality". 

Oh good.

We have yet another genius redefining mathematical concepts to fit in with their cosmology.

That's never been done before.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: AFK on January 11, 2010, 02:35:41 PM
Hey, I don't know who it is that pissed in your Wheaties this morning, but maybe it would be helpful if you turned down the snark dial a little bit, to keep the discussion positive and constructive. 
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 02:46:12 PM
Can I hear this mathematic definition of Chaos? Because I am skeptical that it covers capital-E Everything.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Triple Zero on January 11, 2010, 02:54:54 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 11, 2010, 02:22:02 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 11, 2010, 01:06:10 PM
Ok, here's something to argue about: Our definition of "Chaos" adheres to neither the social nor the mathematic definition.

So why the heck are we calling it "Chaos", anyway?  Eris is a STRIFE goddess, not an "All-Encompassing-Summation of Universe" goddess.

You have a good point about Eris being the Goddess of Strife, and of Discord, not of Chaos.

However, you are dead fucking wrong about our definition of "Chaos" not adhering to the mathematic definition.

Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 02:46:12 PM
Can I hear this mathematic definition of Chaos? Because I am skeptical that it covers capital-E Everything.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Chaos.html

seems mathematics actually limits itself to just barely defining "chaotic" as applying to a (complex, dynamic and/or adaptive) system, rather than defining the word "Chaos" itself.

from the text on that page I do get a sort of feeling of peculiar mixture of order and disorder yeah.

you must have seen the regions of order and disorder in your travels through the world of fractals as well, Cram?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2010, 02:58:40 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 11, 2010, 02:35:41 PM
Hey, I don't know who it is that pissed in your Wheaties this morning, but maybe it would be helpful if you turned down the snark dial a little bit, to keep the discussion positive and constructive. 

No. Everyone. And look it up.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 11, 2010, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 11, 2010, 02:22:02 PM
However, you are dead fucking wrong about our definition of "Chaos" not adhering to the mathematic definition.

Without trying to sound too much like an asshole know-it-all, it would really help if you explained this a bit more, so I could understand where you're coming from.

The following is a standard definition of Chaos Theory:

QuoteChaos theory is an area of inquiry in mathematics, physics, and philosophy studying the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions... Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.

This indicates that, while the outcomes cannot be pre-determined, in the end everything is following precisely ordered rules.

That is to say, it appears to me that Mathematical Chaos is Total Underlying Order, but with more overlying variables than can be accounted for.  This, to me, does not sound like "Order + Disorder", it sounds like "Order that cannot be predicted".

But then again, I'm 60% certain I have misunderstood your point because, you know, you didn't actually make one.

Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Triple Zero on January 11, 2010, 03:35:46 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 11, 2010, 03:11:44 PM
The following is a standard definition of Chaos Theory:

QuoteChaos theory is an area of inquiry in mathematics, physics, and philosophy studying the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions... Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.

This indicates that, while the outcomes cannot be pre-determined, in the end everything is following precisely ordered rules.

That is to say, it appears to me that Mathematical Chaos is Total Underlying Order, but with more overlying variables than can be accounted for.  This, to me, does not sound like "Order + Disorder", it sounds like "Order that cannot be predicted".

Umm hwo much unpredictability do you need before it gets disorder?

Because mathematical systems span the entire range.

That's the thing about chaotic systems.

Theoretically you'd THINK you should be able to deterministically calculate the outcome. Except that in chaotic systems, the practical limits hit the theoretical limits pretty quickly.

Say you know the initial conditions, could you calculate the outcome?

First, let me point out that, as you know, if you let the system run enough, an arbitrarily small error in the initial conditions can create an entirely different result. [mix that fact with Quantum and you get some weird stuff btw]

So let's get started. You cannot analytically solve a chaotic system. You need to do it numerically. Since you know the initial conditions exactly, they have no rounding error. But then you calculate a few steps into the system and you find you need more and more precision to avoid rounding error in the intermediate results. And you cannot have any rounding error, because the tiniest error will make your result worthless after just a few more steps.

Well, now that you got that, it can be shown that there exist chaotic systems, and not even terribly complicated ones at that, that require an increase in precision so fast that, get this, at some point you're gonna require more atoms for the computer that is supposed to calculate that than we currently know exist in the universe.

And that is where the practical limit joins the theoretical limit and we can stop worrying about determinism. Wheeeee.

edit:added some clarifications in green
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 11, 2010, 04:02:59 PM
Wait, who is using Discordianism to explain the whole Everything?!?!?!

:lulz:

As far as I can tell, the Principia Discordia, in its discussion about order/disorder, I think its probably talking mostly about the subjective experience of humans, not particularly ALL EVERYTHING.

QuoteI am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.

Here Eris calls herself Chaos and likens it to the stuff that artists and scientists build from. This causes us to consider artists and scientists in an equal light and I find this interesting... from Chaos/Eris scientists 'build' rhythms (not find, but build) just as artists do.

QuoteSpeak of Me as Discord, to show contrast to the pentagon. Tell constricted mankind that there are no rules, unless they choose to invent rules. Keep close the words of Syadasti: 'TIS AN ILL WIND THAT BLOWS NO MINDS. And remember that there is no tyranny in the State of Confusion.

Here Eris lines herself up ans says 'Speak of me AS discord to contrast with Order', she isn't claiming to BE Discord, rather she is taking on the mantle of Discord to contrast Order.

In the story of Greyface:
Quote"Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.

It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite.

Here Order and Disorder are directly opposed... but we can conclude from the whole parable that NEITHER is True. That is, Order and Disorder were subjectively selected by the observers.

Cosmology:
QuoteBefore the beginning was the Nonexistent Chao, balanced in Oblivion by the Perfect Counterpushpull of the Hodge and the Podge. Whereupon, by an Act of Happenstance, the Hodge began gradually to overpower the Podge -- and the Primal Chaos thereby came to be.

And then there's the specific discussion on Page 50:

QuoteThe Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.

With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.

Apparent Order and Apparent Disorder, in this model, are Entirely man made... Chaos is a 'deeper level' than Order/Disorder, but nowhere does it state that Chaos is THE deepest level... just a deeper level than the perception of Order and Disorder.

To further express this:

QuoteThe point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

The original Starbucks Pebble parable does a fantastic job of illustrating this.

Finally, we can take the apocryphal inspired comment by Lord Omar, Our Bull Goose of the Discordian Society:

QuoteAnd so it is that we, as men, do not exist until we do; and then it is that we play with our world of existent things, and order and disorder them, and so it shall be that Non-existence shall take us back from Existence, and that nameless Spirituality shall return to Void, like a tired child home from a very wild circus.

Order and Disorder again appear to be entirely subjective labels applied by the individual.

In my personal view, I think that it's OK to say Chaos = 'reality' and Order/Disorder = How we interpret 'reality'... But, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're discussing anything relevant to "Really Real Everything".

To discuss "Really Real Everything" you need dogmatic belief.  :fnord:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on January 11, 2010, 04:02:59 PM
Wait, who is using Discordianism to explain the whole Everything?!?!?!
...
In my personal view, I think that it's OK to say Chaos = 'reality' and Order/Disorder = How we interpret 'reality'... But, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're discussing anything relevant to "Really Real Everything".

To discuss "Really Real Everything" you need dogmatic belief.  :fnord:

I don't think anybody said Chaos was the really real everything. Chaos is the word used (by me?) to describe the universe behind our perception of it. What else is there?

Chao Te Ching chapter 25
There is Something that exists,
beyond the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
It is all things, and unknowable in full.
We only see small parts of It,
but are convinced what we see is the entire Universe.

For lack of a better name, I call It "Chaos".
At dinner parties, I claim It is everything Possible and Impossible.
When asked why not call It "god",
I point out that their head is too fucking small.

Because we create the Illusions in which we live,
we are more creative than Chaos.
Because we believe in the Illusions we create,
our heads are too fucking small.
In this way, we reflect our creations.


So that passage about how both scientists and artists tap into chaos? I think that's saying that both of them make order or disorder from the unknown. They bring something from nonexistence into existence. Their trip could be creative, destructive, ordered, or disordered. Both scientists and artists are tapping into the same source.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 11, 2010, 04:37:26 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on January 11, 2010, 04:02:59 PM
Wait, who is using Discordianism to explain the whole Everything?!?!?!
...
In my personal view, I think that it's OK to say Chaos = 'reality' and Order/Disorder = How we interpret 'reality'... But, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're discussing anything relevant to "Really Real Everything".

To discuss "Really Real Everything" you need dogmatic belief.  :fnord:

I don't think anybody said Chaos was the really real everything. Chaos is the word used (by me?) to describe the universe behind our perception of it. What else is there?

I don't know Man, I didn't do it. ;-)

Quote
So that passage about how both scientists and artists tap into chaos? I think that's saying that both of them make order or disorder from the unknown. They bring something from nonexistence into existence. Their trip could be creative, destructive, ordered, or disordered. Both scientists and artists are tapping into the same source.

I agree... I just don't know if that thing they're tapping into is the Really real, or a level of abstraction above the 'really real' and below the 'Order/Disorder' grids.

Otherwise, I think we're in agreement.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 11, 2010, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on January 11, 2010, 03:35:46 PM
So let's get started. You cannot analytically solve a chaotic system. You need to do it numerically. Since you know the initial conditions exactly, they have no rounding error. But then you calculate a few steps into the system and you find you need more and more precision to avoid rounding error. And you cannot have any rounding error, because the tiniest error will make your result worthless.

Well, now that you got that, it can be shown that there exist chaotic systems, and not even terribly complicated ones at that, that require an increase in precision so fast that, get this, at some point you're gonna require more atoms for the computer that is supposed to calculate that than we currently know exist in the universe.

And that is where the practical limit joins the theoretical limit and we can stop worrying about determinism. Wheeeee.

WOAH

I totally forgot what we were talking about and had a mathgasm. :fap:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
When I say Chaos I am talking about Chaos as used in Greek Mythology.

Edith Hamilton:

"First there was chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss, outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, and wild... From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless."

Chaos is the initial state of things, how they exist pre-thought. What they look like when they're off-stage. Chaos is the state of the unknowable future.

Eris is our patroness because deep down I want to live in a balanced world, and there's too much Order right now. Eris wants us to build up the order until there's a breaking point, called Aftermath, and the cycle returns to the season of Chaos.

To me, Eris is the Goddess of Chaos because she reveals that order and disorder are both illusion. She prefers Disorder right now, again, because we live in Orderville. But deep down she wants balance - hence the symbol of the Sacred Chao.

This is an interesting idea Cram... let me see if I understand you correctly. 

I am getting this:  Eris is the goddess of, and personification of STRIFE.  Strife is dependent on the circumstances on which it occurs in, so in a mostly ordered society, such as we have now, "strife" exhibits its behaviour as disorder.  But, in a society which was primarily disorderly, she would exhibit "strife" as order.

Am I reading you right?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 PM
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.

Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 PM
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.



I have never considered this before, and I love it.  It makes so much sense.  I'm sure this has been obvious to pretty much everyone else all along, but I tend to be rather slow... and it takes away the slightly negative connotations that I sometimes have small problems with in Discordianism.  Not often, mind you, but sometimes.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2010, 06:36:37 PM
I know I would.  But I'm contrarian like that.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 11, 2010, 06:37:58 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
When I say Chaos I am talking about Chaos as used in Greek Mythology.

Edith Hamilton:

"First there was chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss, outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, and wild... From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless."

Chaos is the initial state of things, how they exist pre-thought. What they look like when they're off-stage. Chaos is the state of the unknowable future.

Eris is our patroness because deep down I want to live in a balanced world, and there's too much Order right now. Eris wants us to build up the order until there's a breaking point, called Aftermath, and the cycle returns to the season of Chaos.

To me, Eris is the Goddess of Chaos because she reveals that order and disorder are both illusion. She prefers Disorder right now, again, because we live in Orderville. But deep down she wants balance - hence the symbol of the Sacred Chao.

This is an interesting idea Cram... let me see if I understand you correctly. 

I am getting this:  Eris is the goddess of, and personification of STRIFE.  Strife is dependent on the circumstances on which it occurs in, so in a mostly ordered society, such as we have now, "strife" exhibits its behaviour as disorder.  But, in a society which was primarily disorderly, she would exhibit "strife" as order.

Am I reading you right?

I think that's a good way to interpret it if nothing else ;-)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2010, 06:36:37 PM
I know I would.  But I'm contrarian like that.

And I salute you.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 11, 2010, 08:37:40 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2010, 06:36:37 PM
I know I would.  But I'm contrarian like that.

And I salute you.

Hear, hear!
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2010, 08:46:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 PM
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.



I have never considered this before, and I love it.  It makes so much sense.  I'm sure this has been obvious to pretty much everyone else all along, but I tend to be rather slow... and it takes away the slightly negative connotations that I sometimes have small problems with in Discordianism.  Not often, mind you, but sometimes.

What negative connotations?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2010, 08:46:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 PM
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.



I have never considered this before, and I love it.  It makes so much sense.  I'm sure this has been obvious to pretty much everyone else all along, but I tend to be rather slow... and it takes away the slightly negative connotations that I sometimes have small problems with in Discordianism.  Not often, mind you, but sometimes.

What negative connotations?

I didn't word that well really, but sometimes I worry that some people become Discordians simply to give an excuse to their asshole ways...
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2010, 08:55:23 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2010, 08:46:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 PM
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.



I have never considered this before, and I love it.  It makes so much sense.  I'm sure this has been obvious to pretty much everyone else all along, but I tend to be rather slow... and it takes away the slightly negative connotations that I sometimes have small problems with in Discordianism.  Not often, mind you, but sometimes.

What negative connotations?

I didn't word that well really, but sometimes I worry that some people become Discordians simply to give an excuse to their asshole ways...

With me it was just a happy coincidence. :)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 08:56:50 PM
 :lol:  Me too.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2010, 10:33:40 PM
I really dislike being asked to explain fairly simple concepts that can easily be looked up on the internet.

And then misunderstood.

That's great.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2010, 10:34:01 PM
Have I mentioned how much I hate all of you?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 11, 2010, 10:43:22 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 11, 2010, 10:34:01 PM
Have I mentioned how much I hate all of you?

Hey, what did I do?

I love ya Nigel, even when yer cranky.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 11, 2010, 10:45:48 PM
Looking up mathematical definitions of chaos on the internet reveals stuff like what 000 posted. It's all talk about how "chaotic" systems are ones in which arbitrarily small changes in the initial conditions yield large changes in the end results.

Now, forgive me for being a retarded puny-minded twatfaced shitstain on the collective human consciousness, but that doesn't exactly sound like what some Discordians talk about when they say "Everything is Chaos." Maybe once you've gotten the stick out of your butt you'll deign to do us the inimitable favor of telling us simpering turdbuglaring douchbag idiot fools where you see the connections that we ought to be able to see if we weren't so incredibly fucking stupid and misinformed.


If nothing else this thread has prompted me to spend some time reading up on chaos theory so I can at least have an educated layman's understanding of it.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Kai on January 12, 2010, 12:20:21 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
When I say Chaos I am talking about Chaos as used in Greek Mythology.

Edith Hamilton:

"First there was chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss, outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, and wild... From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless."

Chaos is the initial state of things, how they exist pre-thought. What they look like when they're off-stage. Chaos is the state of the unknowable future.

Eris is our patroness because deep down I want to live in a balanced world, and there's too much Order right now. Eris wants us to build up the order until there's a breaking point, called Aftermath, and the cycle returns to the season of Chaos.

To me, Eris is the Goddess of Chaos because she reveals that order and disorder are both illusion. She prefers Disorder right now, again, because we live in Orderville. But deep down she wants balance - hence the symbol of the Sacred Chao.

Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2010, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 PM
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.



I have never considered this before, and I love it.  It makes so much sense.  I'm sure this has been obvious to pretty much everyone else all along, but I tend to be rather slow... and it takes away the slightly negative connotations that I sometimes have small problems with in Discordianism.  Not often, mind you, but sometimes.

I agree with the above posts.This is a novel, useful way of looking at things.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Halfbaked1 on January 12, 2010, 05:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 11, 2010, 10:34:01 PM
Have I mentioned how much I hate all of you?

Egads, I thought it was TGRR for a second.

But anyway, It makes perfect sense that Discordians would be the opposite of whatever the norm was.  not because we are contrary, though we are it isn't the only reason, but because like was said we seek balance in this world and the only way to do that is by opposing the status quo.  Still, what happens if we ever achieved a balance?  Not that I really think that such a thing is possible, but what if we, the monkeys i mean, actually managed to pull it off?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Reginald Ret on January 12, 2010, 10:07:59 AM
Quote from: Halfbaked1 on January 12, 2010, 05:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 11, 2010, 10:34:01 PM
Have I mentioned how much I hate all of you?

Egads, I thought it was TGRR for a second.

But anyway, It makes perfect sense that Discordians would be the opposite of whatever the norm was.  not because we are contrary, though we are it isn't the only reason, but because like was said we seek balance in this world and the only way to do that is by opposing the status quo.  Still, what happens if we ever achieved a balance?  Not that I really think that such a thing is possible, but what if we, the monkeys i mean, actually managed to pull it off?
Then we paradigm shift.
the balance becomes the new order and we start challenging that.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Richter on January 12, 2010, 02:39:30 PM
I'm not going to say anything about chaos, but this has gotten me thinking about order.  Order, as an illusion, sounds about right, but I think it should be considered more a mass illusion, dependent on the observer(s).  Order, in some way or another, is a conveyance of information (in formation), things structured in a pattern that an observer can recognize.

This depends a lot on the observer, though.  For example; an observer, looking at writing on a stone in their native language will see writing, read and understand it.  Another observer, not capable in that language, will likely recognize the carefully spaced arrangement and repeating characters, and figure it's writing, but may not know it's exact meaning.  Another observer completely removed from the culture and writing conventions might think the same.  They might miss it completely, and wonder how all the funny scratches got on the rock too, depending how alien it is to the information they are used to seeing.  Without knowing that information is attempting to be conveyed, it's up to the pattern recognition of the observer.  Patterns and information in DNA and RNA are similar, but without a life form utilizing or acting on them, they also fundamentally inert.  A form of information becomes more relevant the larger the number of observers recognizing or utilizing it.  (Ranging from the modern artist whose scrawling no one else understands, up through widely used and heeded signals like stop lights.  (Which convey information that, if ignored, may bring you to swift misfortune on the bumper of humans who were trusting said information.))

Anything in an unobserved / unutilized formation or order has no fundamental difference from whatever else is around it until it is observed.  (Aside from different wavelengths or larger than average number of chemical bonds to break down.)

Feels like I'm missing something though, any suggestions?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 12, 2010, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: Richter on January 12, 2010, 02:39:30 PM
I'm not going to say anything about chaos, but this has gotten me thinking about order.  Order, as an illusion, sounds about right, but I think it should be considered more a mass illusion, dependent on the observer(s).  Order, in some way or another, is a conveyance of information (in formation), things structured in a pattern that an observer can recognize.

This depends a lot on the observer, though.  For example; an observer, looking at writing on a stone in their native language will see writing, read and understand it.  Another observer, not capable in that language, will likely recognize the carefully spaced arrangement and repeating characters, and figure it's writing, but may not know it's exact meaning.  Another observer completely removed from the culture and writing conventions might think the same.  They might miss it completely, and wonder how all the funny scratches got on the rock too, depending how alien it is to the information they are used to seeing.  Without knowing that information is attempting to be conveyed, it's up to the pattern recognition of the observer.  Patterns and information in DNA and RNA are similar, but without a life form utilizing or acting on them, they also fundamentally inert.  A form of information becomes more relevant the larger the number of observers recognizing or utilizing it.  (Ranging from the modern artist whose scrawling no one else understands, up through widely used and heeded signals like stop lights.  (Which convey information that, if ignored, may bring you to swift misfortune on the bumper of humans who were trusting said information.))

Anything in an unobserved / unutilized formation or order has no fundamental difference from whatever else is around it until it is observed.  (Aside from different wavelengths or larger than average number of chemical bonds to break down.)

Feels like I'm missing something though, any suggestions?


I think you nailed it.

Order and Disorder are the grids we use to judge the data points around us, without the Grids or any useful semantic connection to the symbols (writing or culture) its just "existent things".
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 12, 2010, 05:02:15 PM
@Ricther - I like what you say it got me thinking

QuoteAnything in an unobserved / unutilized formation or order has no fundamental difference from whatever else is around it until it is observed.
I would dare equat Chaos to being just pure randomness and once a pattern is observed then it is no longer chaotic but now percieved as our own order.

The way I see it -
All there is, is chaos and everything else is percieved. The order and disorder in our lives are only created based off of our own perception (Learned through the culture we grow up in), a million years ago - we would view the workings of the Cavemen as disorder since it would not fit into our own orderly/disorderly lives; our two worlds would never coperate. Maybe in time it is possible to learn to live like a Caveman but thats beyond the point. The patterns in our live, may not necessarily match anothers patterns, that is when we percieve it as disorder - because the patterns do not fit into our own little jigsaw.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Richter on January 12, 2010, 05:50:05 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on January 12, 2010, 02:54:05 PM
I think you nailed it.

Order and Disorder are the grids we use to judge the data points around us, without the Grids or any useful semantic connection to the symbols (writing or culture) its just "existent things".


Yeah, as you say they are both simplifications we use to practically direct and truncate to our observational and computational limitations.  (Mathematical / phsyics based definitions MIGHT explain everything, but the compelxity and level of observation require to do so makes it impractical, for example.)

That leaves me with anything not observable as Order / Information being observed as Disorder / Chaos, (I wrote a memebomb or two on this tone.)
Again, only as such when observed as such.  

@ NotPublished

I'm still mulling where this leaves us switching things betweem ordered / disordered states leaves us.  Trying to enforce order on a disordered state, or confusing disorder for infromation.  (The Cynic remarks that these situations give us Afganistan, cancer, every kid's box of LEGOs, and the organization of my bedroom.)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 05:55:38 PM
I think that, once you're aware of the balance, you start noticing more.

That is, if you're given a disordered system, you can find coherent patterns, and if given an ordered system, you find the disarray. 

And when you notice more things, you have more information, and can make better choices.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 12, 2010, 05:58:38 PM
I completely don't understand how we can all be reading the same words, yet deriving completely different meanings from them.

Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 06:01:13 PM
LOL of fives?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 12, 2010, 06:03:42 PM
Yes, I think so.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 06:10:23 PM
To be honest, I think it stems from the fact that we have neither established a solid framework, nor a clear definition of our terms.  So we use the same words, but have different meanings and points of view attached to them.


For example, if we choose to use the Mathematical definition of Chaos Theory to define what we mean by "Chaos", then we have defined it as a highly complex and unpredictable system that may look disordered, but has hard and fast underlying rules... Which would imply that while Disorder is an illusion, Order is not.  Hence the reason I said that the Discordian definition didn't seem to jibe.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 12, 2010, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 12, 2010, 05:58:38 PM
I completely don't understand how we can all be reading the same words, yet deriving completely different meanings from them.



To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised anyone ever understands anyone else at all.  And I'm being dead serious.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Richter on January 13, 2010, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 05:55:38 PM
I think that, once you're aware of the balance, you start noticing more.

That is, if you're given a disordered system, you can find coherent patterns, and if given an ordered system, you find the disarray. 

And when you notice more things, you have more information, and can make better choices.

Like how bureaucracies never seem to work totally effectively?  The Good Reverend Roger mentioned this to me once.

Quote from: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 06:10:23 PM
For example, if we choose to use the Mathematical definition of Chaos Theory to define what we mean by "Chaos", then we have defined it as a highly complex and unpredictable system that may look disordered, but has hard and fast underlying rules... Which would imply that while Disorder is an illusion, Order is not.  Hence the reason I said that the Discordian definition didn't seem to jibe.

I may be missaplying the scientific thinking here, but without being able to adequately observe a "chaotic" system, it seems like a mistake to assume underlying rules are present.

In chewing it over, I've started thinking about it almost dualistically (Which is my first cue I've done something wrong.).  Are we dealing with a universe goverened by "hard and fast" principles that by compelxity mimics disorder, or a univsere goverend by disordered principles which can become ordered and follow certain predictable (hard + fast) principles under certain conditions?  Going back to your comments about the balance, it could very well be some combination of the two, systems with both unpredicatable actions and hard and fast principles.     

If things are, in fact, entirely ordered in every possible way, then "chaos" has been overlooked as one of humanity's greatest inventions stemming from inability to observe, rivaling Religion.

Quote from: Hoopla on January 12, 2010, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on January 12, 2010, 05:58:38 PM
I completely don't understand how we can all be reading the same words, yet deriving completely different meanings from them.



To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised anyone ever understands anyone else at all.  And I'm being dead serious.

I think I see.  I'm shocked that things ever work out right at all sometimes, with all the forces to the contrary.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 13, 2010, 02:47:17 PM
Quote from: Richter on January 13, 2010, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 05:55:38 PM
I think that, once you're aware of the balance, you start noticing more.

That is, if you're given a disordered system, you can find coherent patterns, and if given an ordered system, you find the disarray.  

And when you notice more things, you have more information, and can make better choices.

Like how bureaucracies never seem to work totally effectively?  The Good Reverend Roger mentioned this to me once.

Or, like your "crazy prepared" attitude.  You understand that no matter how much you plan, you gotta be ready for things to go wrong; and you can wade into a problem, and find out how to fix it.

Quote
Quote from: LMNO on January 12, 2010, 06:10:23 PM
For example, if we choose to use the Mathematical definition of Chaos Theory to define what we mean by "Chaos", then we have defined it as a highly complex and unpredictable system that may look disordered, but has hard and fast underlying rules... Which would imply that while Disorder is an illusion, Order is not.  Hence the reason I said that the Discordian definition didn't seem to jibe.

I may be missaplying the scientific thinking here, but without being able to adequately observe a "chaotic" system, it seems like a mistake to assume underlying rules are present.

See, that demonstrates one of my points.  The mathematic definition of "Chaos" is a dynamic system that is sensitive to initial conditions.  That is, it is a set of mathematic rules where the outcome appears unpredictable due to the amount of variables introduced; but those variables are all adhering to the initial rules of the system.

So, as far as I see it, if someone says that their definition of "Chaos" is the mathematical one, they are saying that Order is the underlying basis.  My personal Discordian definition of Chaos is different than the math definition; I'm working it through in my head right now.  I have a feeling it's psychology based, but I can't be sure, yet.

QuoteIn chewing it over, I've started thinking about it almost dualistically (Which is my first cue I've done something wrong.).  Are we dealing with a universe goverened by "hard and fast" principles that by compelxity mimics disorder, or a univsere goverend by disordered principles which can become ordered and follow certain predictable (hard + fast) principles under certain conditions?  Going back to your comments about the balance, it could very well be some combination of the two, systems with both unpredicatable actions and hard and fast principles.    

If things are, in fact, entirely ordered in every possible way, then "chaos" has been overlooked as one of humanity's greatest inventions stemming from inability to observe, rivaling Religion.

This is one of the things I'm trying to come to terms with.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Golden Applesauce on January 13, 2010, 04:36:32 PM
I wrote the "In The Beginning" piece as a reply to this thread, then decided it needed its own thread (it's selfish that way.)  But I realized that I forgot to actually reply here...

Here's how I read the statement "Everything Is Chaos":
An awful lot of creation narratives start with some kind of "unformed substance," from which the world as we know it is created.  The formless substance is uninhabitable, and the act of creation involves changing it in such a way that it becomes inhabitable, and is a Good Thing because it lets us live.  The creation myths that start with something (as opposed to the ones where the world is literally brought about from nothing) generally share the feature that the world that we know was created by re-arranging - that is, Ordering - parts of this primordial Chaos.  One myth (I forget the origin) had mud being dredged up from the bottom of the ocean (I think by a bird) to create an island that plants, animals, and people could stand on.  Even creation narratives of government follow this trope - "In the beginning, there was anarchy (formless society), and life was nasty, brutish and short; then people organized themselves into structured societies and things started to improve."

Anyway, the act of Ordering the primordial Chaos is equated with creation, which is Good.  Disorder, then, is either (like the case of the Egyptians) the part of the primordial Chaos that the gods didn't get around to sanitizing, or something created by a nemesis figure to intentionally subvert the Order on which life depends.  Either way, it is fundamentally opposed to Order, which is the same as Creation, which supports you; by extension, Disorder is trying to kill you, personally.

The statement "Everything Is Chaos" is unique because everybody else is running around saying "It used to be the case that everything was Chaos" or "Be careful, don't let the remaining Chaos get you."  We reject this - if everything is Chaos, there's no point trying to avoid it: you can't.  Similarly, the act of creation (which in this context is identical with the re-ordering of parts) does not eliminate the underlying Chaos - the Chaos is still there, it just looks different.  I don't want to take "Order is an illusion" to mean that it isn't "real"; I'd rather say that Order is ephemeral (it only lasts until someone comes along and re-orders it - there's no "I made it, it's finished" - Order is by nature Chaos, which is by nature mutable) and subjective (different people will find different Order [or none at all] in the same arrangement of Chaos.)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 13, 2010, 05:01:00 PM
Maybe this is one of those things like 'quantum'... that is on the tiny scale shit looks weird, but on the macro scale, shit appears normal.

So 'Chaos Theory' is unpredictable in the little picture (if you don't have the variables at hand) but predictable if you have all the data. From a human perspective, there's no way we could possibly know all of the variables that fed the system originally, nor all of the variables that may still be feeding into the system, so from a barstool perspective, its unpredictable Chaos for humans... but maybe not for someone outside of the system (in the Universe next door or something).

Then again, maybe we're speaking philosophically rather than mathematically. Philosophically, we make the maps of order based on what we perceive. There's no way we can perceive everything, so our maps are always incomplete. There is always room for the unexpected (and Jello). So while we order things and disorder things to the best of our ability, in the end its chaotic, because we don't ever have all the data necessary to ensure that we've ordered and disordered properly.

That seems to kind of jive with the Absurdist position of "Oh sure, there MIGHT be a purpose to existence, but how the fuck are we ever gonna find it, I think someone wrote it on a sticky note and put it inside Russel's teapot". 

"Oh sure, there might be an underlying Order somewhere, but how the fuck are we ever gonna see it? "

Thus, it is left to the individual to create as much meaning, or order/disorder as they choose to. Since individual experiences are all different, then the result would be chaotic (just look at our forums!! ;-) ).
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 13, 2010, 05:06:09 PM
That's where I think I'm heading.

That is to say, for me, in a Discordian context, I cannot use the Mathematical definition of Chaos, because, when speaking of Discordia, I am using Chaos is a philisophical, almost metaphorical sense.  Or perhaps in a pragmatic sense.  Sure, a complex system might have an underlying order, but I'll never see it in my day-to-day life.  So I call it "Chaos", because my perceptions cannot call it otherwise.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 13, 2010, 05:06:47 PM
In other news, I sure do use a lot of commas.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 13, 2010, 05:19:16 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 13, 2010, 05:06:47 PM
In other news, I sure do use a lot of commas.

Well, as long as they aren't those smartie pants edumachated asshole commas from Oxford....
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 13, 2010, 09:31:15 PM
Quote from: GA on January 13, 2010, 04:36:32 PM
An awful lot of creation narratives..

I just wanted to throw something out here - What if the world/universe was NEVER created but it always existed?

But we only say it was created because this is what we are comfortable with. I can understand the planet being created (I guess in my original statement, it was a bit self-conceited to put the world/universe together), but what about the universe itself? What if it's always been there - many would find that a contradiction to existance itself since everything would have to of been created. But that is a dualistic principle - if its created, its destroyed. The universe was neither created nor destroyed - it is just there.

What if existance itself was never created? Perhaps the nature of the universe isn't dualistic but just a single thing.

Though yeah, just a thought I wanted to throw out there.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cramulus on January 13, 2010, 10:05:48 PM
 :ohnotache:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Salty on January 13, 2010, 10:08:56 PM
Now, I can't be sure about this, but I think the expanding nature of the universe might have something to say about that.

Unless something's changed since I last lernt teh science.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 13, 2010, 10:17:35 PM
It is just a thought I was toying around with - I am definantly not a student of science  :lulz: (I barely paid attention while in School)

But really, how do you even prove the universe is expanding?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 13, 2010, 10:22:15 PM
There is at least one model that I read about, which attempted to explain the Universe in a method which accounts for expansion and redshift etc but doesn't necessarily require a beginning or end.

http://www.specularium.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=50 (http://www.specularium.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=50)

It may be crap... but it may also indicate that there could be an explanation that doesn't require a beginning or end, necessarily. Basically it models the universe as a six dimensional Hypercube (3 of Space and 3 of Time) as some kind of Ouroboros.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 13, 2010, 10:29:28 PM
That looks like a big read, I'll do that a bit later.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Jasper on January 13, 2010, 11:11:48 PM
The scientific data for there being a 'beginning of time' circa the big bang is fairly conclusive.  Every theory that competes with the big bang posits things that are unsupported.  I have a book that does a blurb on all this, I could dig it up given half an hour of box re-stacking.

In my search for relevant information, I came across this:

http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~mab/education/astro103/lectures/l26/l26.html

It provides some very basic quick notes on the big bang, and why it is safe to assume the big bang.

Note: The big bang signifies the beginning of spacetime, and it is impossible for anything to have happened 'before' then, because there was no 'before'.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: BabylonHoruv on January 14, 2010, 03:11:39 AM
I've always been a fan of the brane theory.  Basically the idea is that our universe is the result of the collision of two different membranes. (sounds a fair amount like the concept behind the Invisibles, but I got it from Discover Magazine, http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/Discover0204.pdf is the story)  Fits in with the concept of the universe arising from sex between two deities as well, so it meshes with my pagan upbringing comfortably.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Jasper on January 14, 2010, 06:31:40 AM
I'm a fan of theories that fit the existing observations and make accurate predictions.

Theoretical physics has a lot of amusingly wild speculations.  Believe them at your own risk. :)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Lord Quantum on January 16, 2010, 08:49:52 PM
I like LMNO's definition

Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2010, 02:57:55 PM
the Universe is Chaos, which is perceived as an infinite amount of random events.

Chaos = Infinite Randomness. The problem of course is that Infinite Randomness isn't useful (like mud) so people create patterns to make more sense of the mud. They shape it bake it and eventually build bricks out of it. Then the bricks become a house and they live in the house. And all the while they tell themselves that they're in a house (which they are) but really it's just a whole lot of mud.

It's kinda like how Christians read the Bible. They quote the verses that fit with their own view (order) and ignore the ones that contradict their view (disorder).
So Order is like proof-texting the Universe. Stop proof-texting the Universe!  :argh!:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Iason Ouabache on January 18, 2010, 08:45:34 AM
Quote from: Summa DiscordiaChaos is the oldest God. It was the reason that the earliest humans decided to focus their attentions on the spiritual beyond. Chaos is, almost by definition, something that is not controlled, and therefore seems inseparably related to the divine. Our truest sense of chaos originates from the awareness that we are faced with a universe of unimaginable complexity.

At the same time, there is a more practical side to this drive toward worship. This pull to the divine was always followed by the need to propitiate these unimaginably powerful forces, since so little in this world seemed under our control. Cave paintings weren't just decorative - they were part of ritualistic performances to ensure a successful hunt. The fertility icons found in Catal Huyuk were trusted to ensure a plentiful
harvest and large family.

We've come a long way since those days. We're better than that now. We're smarter, for one, and we're stronger. We have technology that can predict and control a good part of that mysterious void that was nature. The products of our society are not just works of art that hope at influence over nature, but massive dams, roads, buildings, ships, aircraft - acts of technical dominance over nature. We're stronger now. We're
powerful. We're safer.

Except we're still afraid of chaos.

Sometimes we can cover it up by wrapping ourselves in order, in the understood. Throw up the walls of technology, of medicine, of science, of logic. We can drop a veil around ourselves, saying, "I understand everything. That which I don't understand is therefore nothing," and doing this rids us of the larger, more troubling part of the world. A smacks into B and causes C, and with a little more study and a little hard work we can cause C on command.

But Discordians have this all figured out. We worship Eris, the Goddess of Chaos. And she's let us in on the Big Secret. You see, the Fallacy of Chaos is that it exists at all. Chaos is an order that we are not smart enough, not willing enough, or just in the wrong place to see. Order is simply a chunk of chaos that one of us has haphazardly slathered with "meaning". Everything is everything. Bundi ti ubundi.

You know you're close to understanding Chaos when you either see it everywhere or nowhere, but you're not sure which.

:fnord:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Xila31 on January 19, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: NotPublished on January 13, 2010, 09:31:15 PM
Quote from: GA on January 13, 2010, 04:36:32 PM
An awful lot of creation narratives..

I just wanted to throw something out here - What if the world/universe was NEVER created but it always existed?

But we only say it was created because this is what we are comfortable with. I can understand the planet being created (I guess in my original statement, it was a bit self-conceited to put the world/universe together), but what about the universe itself? What if it's always been there - many would find that a contradiction to existance itself since everything would have to of been created. But that is a dualistic principle - if its created, its destroyed. The universe was neither created nor destroyed - it is just there.

What if existance itself was never created? Perhaps the nature of the universe isn't dualistic but just a single thing.

Though yeah, just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

Hi, I'm going to jump in because this jumped out at me. It makes sense. What is the universe physically speaking? it is a big empty space dotted by a random collection of stars, planets, and other random "space junk" like comets. But when you get right down to it, the universe is a lot of empty space between these things. It isn't like driving from Colorado to Kansas. Sure, there's a lot of open space in between but there is a lot of things there. Animals. Plants. Rocks... and even weather. There is no weather in space. There are no plants or animals (although a rock floats by, perhaps.) So, when you think about it, the "universe" being created is sort of odd. How do create a void of nothing? But the individual objects in it needed to be created. And so the empty space was always there. It is the rest of it that had to come from somewhere.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: BabylonHoruv on January 19, 2010, 11:52:26 PM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 19, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: NotPublished on January 13, 2010, 09:31:15 PM
Quote from: GA on January 13, 2010, 04:36:32 PM
An awful lot of creation narratives..

I just wanted to throw something out here - What if the world/universe was NEVER created but it always existed?

But we only say it was created because this is what we are comfortable with. I can understand the planet being created (I guess in my original statement, it was a bit self-conceited to put the world/universe together), but what about the universe itself? What if it's always been there - many would find that a contradiction to existance itself since everything would have to of been created. But that is a dualistic principle - if its created, its destroyed. The universe was neither created nor destroyed - it is just there.

What if existance itself was never created? Perhaps the nature of the universe isn't dualistic but just a single thing.

Though yeah, just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

Hi, I'm going to jump in because this jumped out at me. It makes sense. What is the universe physically speaking? it is a big empty space dotted by a random collection of stars, planets, and other random "space junk" like comets. But when you get right down to it, the universe is a lot of empty space between these things. It isn't like driving from Colorado to Kansas. Sure, there's a lot of open space in between but there is a lot of things there. Animals. Plants. Rocks... and even weather. There is no weather in space. There are no plants or animals (although a rock floats by, perhaps.) So, when you think about it, the "universe" being created is sort of odd. How do create a void of nothing? But the individual objects in it needed to be created. And so the empty space was always there. It is the rest of it that had to come from somewhere.

Just a thought.

According to most theories of cosmogenesis the empty space wasn't there before either.

Also there is stuff there, it is just very spread out, diffuse atoms, magnetic fields, cosmic rays etc.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Golden Applesauce on January 20, 2010, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 19, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: NotPublished on January 13, 2010, 09:31:15 PM
Quote from: GA on January 13, 2010, 04:36:32 PM
An awful lot of creation narratives..

I just wanted to throw something out here - What if the world/universe was NEVER created but it always existed?

But we only say it was created because this is what we are comfortable with. I can understand the planet being created (I guess in my original statement, it was a bit self-conceited to put the world/universe together), but what about the universe itself? What if it's always been there - many would find that a contradiction to existance itself since everything would have to of been created. But that is a dualistic principle - if its created, its destroyed. The universe was neither created nor destroyed - it is just there.

What if existance itself was never created? Perhaps the nature of the universe isn't dualistic but just a single thing.

Though yeah, just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

Hi, I'm going to jump in because this jumped out at me. It makes sense. What is the universe physically speaking? it is a big empty space dotted by a random collection of stars, planets, and other random "space junk" like comets. But when you get right down to it, the universe is a lot of empty space between these things. It isn't like driving from Colorado to Kansas. Sure, there's a lot of open space in between but there is a lot of things there. Animals. Plants. Rocks... and even weather. There is no weather in space. There are no plants or animals (although a rock floats by, perhaps.) So, when you think about it, the "universe" being created is sort of odd. How do create a void of nothing? But the individual objects in it needed to be created. And so the empty space was always there. It is the rest of it that had to come from somewhere.

Just a thought.

For once, I agree with Babs.  It doesn't make any more sense to insist that "objects" needed to be created than it does to say "space" needed to be created.  Just because you're used to taking space for granted, it gets a privileged position in the whole business of "creating" the world?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 12:20:51 AM
GA, I'm a bit confused with what you mean.

My idea was more so along the lines that it was never created but it always existed.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 02:24:23 PM
I guess what I'm saying is, how do you create nothingness? Nothingness is created by absence or removal, so if the nothing wasn't there then something else had to be there. If the big nothing that sits between planets, stars, clouds of random gasses, and all that was not there, then what was there? Was it gas? If so, then where did that come from? At some point there had to be a whole lot of nothing somewhere. And I know the nothingness of space isn't completely empty, read "random space junk" which encompasses all that which is not a planet or star or black hole. Even a black hole is not a nothing. It is a vacuum which is something.

What I think is that prior to the big bang there were 2 things, a big old cloud of gasses and a whole lot of nothing surrounding it. Everything has polarity. Light and dark. Stop and go. Happy and sad. So, nothingness and something (the void and the gas.) When the big bang happened the creation of "stuff" (to use a not very scientific word) began. Clouds of gasses mostly, that turned into all of the things we know today, went zooming through the nothing. The nothing is the big emptiness of space, which is so big we can't comprehend it. The universe is the stuff that is expanding into the nothingness, but it is also the areas of nothingness that are already encompassed in the stuff that is already created. I fully believe that the universe is still expanding, but it is expanding into a big space of nothing.

Now, the real question here is where did all of that gas come from to begin with? What made it explode? I'm not a physicist. I have no idea scientifically. Now, I am also a believer in multi-dimensions, layers of time and space, and this part is faith based and not science based at all. So on our layer this is big nothingness and a cloud of gas that will explode to create the universe. On a higher dimension there is whatever greater beings, divinity, or whatever you want to call them. Let's call them Chronos. We all know Chronos is "father" of Eris (Chaos) and Aneris (Darma) In the vast nothingness is Darma. "Nothing can be out of order." (Sorry for the pun. :P) Nothingness is still, flat, void of life. Creation is messy, random, and full of motion. If you've ever seen anything being born, you'd know this right away. The explosion and the creation of all things would have been chaotic. However, big chunks of nothingness remain. There is always polarity.

So, I guess in the idea for me of answering that first question of the illusion of order and disorder. True order is like the deadness of the nothingness parts of space. True Chaos is the force of creation and distruction. When they come together, you have the universe. They flow together by some force we call "time" and somehow we all got caught up in the dance.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 20, 2010, 03:35:12 PM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 02:24:23 PM
I guess what I'm saying is, how do you create nothingness? Nothingness is created by absence or removal, so if the nothing wasn't there then something else had to be there. If the big nothing that sits between planets, stars, clouds of random gasses, and all that was not there, then what was there? Was it gas? If so, then where did that come from? At some point there had to be a whole lot of nothing somewhere. And I know the nothingness of space isn't completely empty, read "random space junk" which encompasses all that which is not a planet or star or black hole. Even a black hole is not a nothing. It is a vacuum which is something.

1. Even the emptiest of empty space is not "nothing," it's just that there's nothing in it. It's still space, and still exists as something, even if we can only perceive it as an absence of stuff.

2. No, a black hole a wad of superdense mass, usually the remains of a collapsed star. Space itself is a vacuum.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 03:45:20 PM
Why are you treating "nothingness" as, well, a thing?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 04:41:07 PM
I see.

Since you consider the nothingness as a something (i.e. "Space" the place or whatever,) then this argument does not make sense to you. Whereas I consider the blank empty spots as empty nothingness, the oposite of a thing. So, it just comes down to how you look at it.  :mrgreen:

As for 2, see, I told you I wasn't a physacist.  :)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 04:42:15 PM
Um, re-read my post, and see if you want to change your response.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 20, 2010, 04:42:55 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 03:45:20 PM
Why are you treating "nothingness" as, well, a thing?

By being Treasury Secretary Geithner.   :)
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 04:50:03 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 04:42:15 PM
Um, re-read my post, and see if you want to change your response.

I'm confused. Do you mean me?   :?

I get confused very easly, I'll apologize now.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 04:53:21 PM
Typically, a post is considered to be addressing the previous poster, unless otherwise stated, or completely obvious through context.


Xila, which post were you initially addressing?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 20, 2010, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 04:41:07 PM
I see.

Since you consider the nothingness as a something (i.e. "Space" the place or whatever,) then this argument does not make sense to you. Whereas I consider the blank empty spots as empty nothingness, the oposite of a thing. So, it just comes down to how you look at it.  :mrgreen:

It comes down to the meaning of the words we are using. Space, according to many people, is still a thing. It is not nothingness. I mean, you can observe empty space, and know it by the absence of stuff in it. You cannot observe nothingness, because it's not there.

We have to be pretty specific about the context in which we use the word "nothing," since I still use the word to mean "an absence of stuff" in colloquial speech. As in, "the bucket is empty; there's nothing in it." In this context it refers to... well, nothing at all.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 04:53:21 PM

Xila, which post were you initially addressing?

err, my last post before the one before this one was to the person who said that the nothingness of space is still a thing. The one by Caind.

As for the thing about "Space" being a thing, yes it is. But their are huge parts of space that have "nothing" in them, meaning they are empty, of all things. Which means, they are not a thing to me. You can only know that nothing is there because it contrasts with, say, a planet or a star. Anyway, I'm going to stop now since I'm not trying to be annoying and failing.  :sad:

And I just get confused, nothing to do with any one. Sorry. :(
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 20, 2010, 07:04:49 PM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 04:53:21 PM

Xila, which post were you initially addressing?

err, my last post before the one before this one was to the person who said that the nothingness of space is still a thing. The one by Caind.

As for the thing about "Space" being a thing, yes it is. But their are huge parts of space that have "nothing" in them, meaning they are empty, of all things. Which means, they are not a thing to me. You can only know that nothing is there because it contrasts with, say, a planet or a star. Anyway, I'm going to stop now since I'm not trying to be annoying and failing.  :sad:

And I just get confused, nothing to do with any one. Sorry. :(

It's alright, IMO. I just keep picking at it because if we're going to disagree about the nature of the universe, it might as well be over something more substantial than a disagreement over the meaning of a word.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 20, 2010, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: Cainad on January 20, 2010, 07:04:49 PM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 20, 2010, 04:53:21 PM

Xila, which post were you initially addressing?

err, my last post before the one before this one was to the person who said that the nothingness of space is still a thing. The one by Caind.

As for the thing about "Space" being a thing, yes it is. But their are huge parts of space that have "nothing" in them, meaning they are empty, of all things. Which means, they are not a thing to me. You can only know that nothing is there because it contrasts with, say, a planet or a star. Anyway, I'm going to stop now since I'm not trying to be annoying and failing.  :sad:

And I just get confused, nothing to do with any one. Sorry. :(

It's alright, IMO. I just keep picking at it because if we're going to disagree about the nature of the universe, it might as well be over something more substantial than a disagreement over the meaning of a word.

The nature of the universe is self-evident.

It's a huge, cold empty place, with the occasional - or at least one - algae covered rock.  On this rock live monkeys.  The monkeys act really dumb a lot of the time, but sometimes they find time for better behavior, and make friends.  The universe then punishes the monkeys via their own bad wiring, and they part ways, and go back to being desperately unhappy. 

The End.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 08:53:29 PM
I wouldn't say desperately unhappy. Some monkies discovered Endorphines
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 20, 2010, 09:32:45 PM
Before the big bang there was nothing.  Nothing in it's truest sense: NO THING.  Not even empty space.  Empty space is, by definition, something.  Now there is a lot of something, but that something is filled with mostly nothing.

Please forgive me if I am repeating what someone else already said, I only read the last page of this thread recently.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 09:42:32 PM
You were there?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Nast on January 20, 2010, 09:45:49 PM
In the beginning there was nothing

And then that nothing EXPLODED.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 09:47:45 PM
The poor thing ... Who wouldn't be pissed if they were exploded? Explains the agony
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 20, 2010, 09:48:24 PM
Quote from: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 09:42:32 PM
You were there?

Of course I was.  What are you, new?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
As far as I'm aware, I'm a Russian experiment
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: hooplala on January 20, 2010, 09:53:58 PM
Quote from: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
As far as I'm aware, I'm a Russian experiment

Yeah, it's working, I drool whenever I read your posts.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 20, 2010, 09:54:21 PM
 :lulz:
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: BabylonHoruv on January 21, 2010, 04:17:18 AM
Quote from: Xila31 on January 20, 2010, 04:41:07 PM
I see.

Since you consider the nothingness as a something (i.e. "Space" the place or whatever,) then this argument does not make sense to you. Whereas I consider the blank empty spots as empty nothingness, the oposite of a thing. So, it just comes down to how you look at it.  :mrgreen:

As for 2, see, I told you I wasn't a physacist.  :)

Space may not have anything in it, but it is measurable.  According to the big bang theory prior to the big bang not only was there not any stuff there, there wasn't any space either, no time either. 
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 21, 2010, 04:24:28 AM
Couldn't we just say the boil from TGGR's rage exploded but the explosion contained too much anger so it exploded into several mini=explosions which gave birth to what we know as the angry universe (Which is really some hormonal teenager) and it said "Fuck this" and tried to suicide but failed and that resulted in life as we know it.

Thats an easier big-bang atleast
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: BabylonHoruv on January 21, 2010, 05:58:39 AM
I still the brane theory.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 21, 2010, 06:00:23 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on January 21, 2010, 05:58:39 AM
I still the brane theory.

Accidentally? And was it the whole thing?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Telarus on January 21, 2010, 08:34:14 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 20, 2010, 09:32:45 PM
Before the big bang there was nothing.  Nothing in it's truest sense: NO THING.  Not even empty space.  Empty space is, by definition, something.  Now there is a lot of something, but that something is filled with mostly nothing.

Please forgive me if I am repeating what someone else already said, I only read the last page of this thread recently.

I spent 2 days quoting and crafting a long reply about Eris and her grandmother KAOS, and strange mythological greek cyclic inheritance (see Jupiter, KAOS' grandson, end his family strife) and quoting a bunch of groundless ground, gateless gate, contextless context Taoist spaggotry (and how chaos can serve as it's own context)... but my browser crashed and I lost it all. It pretty much just boils down to the above.

Except, reality's still chaos half a second ago. Before you laid all those grids and filtered it through your monkey senses. The screaming Void. The mystery of all Mysteries.
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Triple Zero on January 21, 2010, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 20, 2010, 07:10:44 PMThe nature of the universe is self-evident.

It's a huge, cold empty place, with the occasional - or at least one - algae covered rock.  On this rock live monkeys.  The monkeys act really dumb a lot of the time, but sometimes they find time for better behavior, and make friends.  The universe then punishes the monkeys via their own bad wiring, and they part ways, and go back to being desperately unhappy. 

The End.

Damn Roger, that is depressing :(

You know there are equally positive formulations of the nature of the universe?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: Triple Zero on January 21, 2010, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: Telarus on January 21, 2010, 08:34:14 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 20, 2010, 09:32:45 PM
Before the big bang there was nothing.  Nothing in it's truest sense: NO THING.  Not even empty space.  Empty space is, by definition, something.  Now there is a lot of something, but that something is filled with mostly nothing.

Please forgive me if I am repeating what someone else already said, I only read the last page of this thread recently.

I spent 2 days quoting and crafting a long reply about Eris and her grandmother KAOS, and strange mythological greek cyclic inheritance (see Jupiter, KAOS' grandson, end his family strife) and quoting a bunch of groundless ground, gateless gate, contextless context Taoist spaggotry (and how chaos can serve as it's own context)... but my browser crashed and I lost it all. It pretty much just boils down to the above.

Except, reality's still chaos half a second ago. Before you laid all those grids and filtered it through your monkey senses. The screaming Void. The mystery of all Mysteries.

that is why you should always, when a reply takes you longer than 10 minutes or so, copy the text to a text editor. browsers will crash.

anyway, tell me about KAOS because I couldnt found that one on wikipedia last time I looked, or maybe I did but it was confusing and not the first mythological god at all?
Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: LMNO on January 21, 2010, 12:52:55 PM
AND SO IT WAS WRITTEN, ELSEWHERE:

Quote from: PricklyBefore the beginning, there was a 50% chance that nothing would exist
and a 50% chance that something would exist. In order to determine
whether something or nothing would exist, something and nothing
decided to flip a coin. However, in order for there to be a coin to
flip, something had to exist, so something had already won. Therefore,
we exist because something is a lying, cheating bastard.

Title: Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
Post by: NotPublished on January 21, 2010, 12:56:44 PM
THAT IS SO COOL!