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What does this have to do with Chaos?

Started by Triple Zero, February 13, 2007, 08:56:47 PM

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Triple Zero

what i think it all has to do with discordianism is: THINK FOR YOURSELF SCHMUCK

all this philosophizing about religion and worldview and ways out of the BIP are, when you get down to it, all about
1) thinking for yourself
2) getting others to think for themselves
3) how to think for yourself (no matter how paradoxical it sounds to discuss this with others, there is merit in that as well)

the thing is, discordia, as outlined in the PD has quite a few pointers on these subject. for example, operation mindfuck is an example of 2, while some of the weirder koan-like stuff and the law of fives are about 3, etc.

maybe the better question is, what does all this still have to do with Chaos?
which is, on this board, quite a neglected bit from discordianism.
mostly because it has to do with chaos mahdqick, i guess
and because it invokes lol23fnordism in people
and perhaps because randomly invoking chaos everywhere maybe isn't really considered a good idea by most on this board?

In reference to http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11608.0
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Cain

Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 08:56:47 PM
maybe the better question is, what does all this still have to do with Chaos?
which is, on this board, quite a neglected bit from discordianism.
mostly because it has to do with chaos mahdqick, i guess
and because it invokes lol23fnordism in people
and perhaps because randomly invoking chaos everywhere maybe isn't really considered a good idea by most on this board?

I think this deserves a new thread.  Mind if I split?

Mangrove

Quote from: Cain on February 13, 2007, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 08:56:47 PM
maybe the better question is, what does all this still have to do with Chaos?
which is, on this board, quite a neglected bit from discordianism.
mostly because it has to do with chaos mahdqick, i guess
and because it invokes lol23fnordism in people
and perhaps because randomly invoking chaos everywhere maybe isn't really considered a good idea by most on this board?

I think this deserves a new thread.  Mind if I split?

go for it.

What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Mangrove

as for the chaos question...

mang's potted summary of PD.

please forgive the simplification but i thought the basic idea behind the LOL23PINEAL stuff was that:

many people view the world in a manner that holds order as good and chaos as bad.

the PD said that there were more options: creative/destructive order and creative/destructive dis-order.

from what i gather, the intent was to say that 'creative disorder' is sorely lacking in this world and thus it's combatted by...uh....saying 'fnord' and uh...stuff.

i think BIP was more along the lines of fleshing out the 'reality grid' notion. i don't think anyone here is opposed to chaos, only opposed to chaos that is now incredibly cliched & staged. there really is nothing chaotic about PD cliches.

my feeling is that people are not against chaos per se.
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Triple Zero

yea it's like that qabalah book i'm reading now (same as i been ploughing through it for months now) anyway what it says is there is no good or bad, only energies/forces being applied at the wrong place or wrong time, pulling things out of balance.

that's the thing with chaos vs order

there's a time and place for everything.

the world can use some chaos at certain places and levels, but on the large scale it already has enough, and on the smaller scale of your personal life, i think most of us also already have enough, and it's the in between scale where we want more of it maybe.
but then again, maybe this is another of those balance thingies, it could very well be that those scale/levels stacking upon eachother are supposed to be alternating towers of positives and negatives (leaving aside for now which of chaos and order is positive or negative).
maybe because we are chaotic of ourselves, the structures that encompass us will seem more orderly (eristic principle), and maybe because those structures seem orderly, the larger scale world structures are currently chaos (aneristic principle, definitely)

ok, so maybe this chaos/order stuff has some things to be investigated after all :)
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Cain

Quotemostly because it has to do with chaos mahdqick, i guess
and because it invokes lol23fnordism in people
and perhaps because randomly invoking chaos everywhere maybe isn't really considered a good idea by most on this board?

As far as I'm concerned, Chaos has nothing to do with magic or the occult.  Or at least, nothing more than anything else.

It can do....sometimes.  I'm pretty sure we can have a rational conversation of chaos, but I admit I have been soured by the "chaos is about cute little animals and just wants us to be friends and all get along in the happy anarchy" crap which is about as misinformed as most of the New Age movement.

Probably not, but it happens anyway.

Triple Zero

Quote from: Cain on February 13, 2007, 09:48:08 PMbut I admit I have been soured by the "chaos is about cute little animals and just wants us to be friends and all get along in the happy anarchy" crap

i'm pretty sure most of the people currently debating on the board are beyond that :)

it's kind of like how "think for yourself" has evolved from "i can do whatever i want and it's all freedom maaan" to what we're discussing about the bip now.
the "cute happy anarchy" is probably a bit more ripe for the picking as well :)
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Cain

OK, this is how I see it relating.

Everyone has an idea, series of ideas or concepts that try and explain how the world works, in order to manipulate it better, as well as represent reality.  This is nothing new, we know this.

However, these ideas are often incomplete and many social/cultural reasons can affect which we decide to accept or reject.

Because of this, we have many, often unconnected and misunderstood ideas floating around and causing conflict and disorder.  Disparity exists between the world as it actually is, the world as we think it is (or wish it to be) and the interaction of opposing agents holding hostile concepts.

Chaos exists because of the BIP. 

Triple Zero

> Chaos exists because of the BIP.

that would be the bad Chaos, right?

see this is why we need some different words, like order disorder and chaos.

now we need another one, maybe.

cause there is also "good" chaos

the kind of stuff that causes creativity. can't have creativity without chaotic processes. (this is not randomness, this is chaotic feedback -- different, more spicy randomnes)

creativity in stuff like brainstorming, but also evolution etc, well you get the idea.

i think this creative chaos is definitely not caused by the BIP
(or maybe out of necessity?)

> Everyone has an idea, series of ideas or concepts that try and explain how the
> world works, in order to manipulate it better, as well as represent reality.  This is
> nothing new, we know this.

also, i like what, i think mang/rwhn/silly said in the other thread, a lot of people who claim not to have beliefs, in fact do have beliefs, but they turn out to be very unwell thought-out crap and loosely collected garbage that happened to fly in their faces.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Cain

I don't differentiate.  Chaos is chaos, whatever subjective moral terms you want to label it with.  You get something wrong, but you come up with a great new idea for a novel or play doing it.  Sometimes, you get it wrong and an entire country is rounded up and put in concentration camps.  One is good and the other bad, but both are the results of living in a chaotic world where the truth is uncertain.

Triple Zero

with that definition, i would say the BIP causes only SOME chaos.

otherwise you could as well argue the BIP causes everything

(which you can do, but in that case i will have to mention we are all One, and you might as well have not split the thread, for they too, are all One :fnord: )

also, what is the (sort of, general) definition of chaos you're using then that encompassess all these things?

cause there still are different kinds of chaos.

there's the mathematical one that means no more than "small difference in initial conditions shall have large difference in conditions over time (growing exponentially over time in fact)"
which may be applied to "living in a chaotic world"
but i don't quite see how that fits to "an entire country rounded up" type chaos?

or more like, anything could happen chaos?
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Benaclypse

I think the Black Iron Prison project was designed to make us resentful towards law and order and the impending police state (particularly laws that are themselves criminal and unjust).  Of course chaos sometimes only exacerbates the law rather than breaking it down.  If you want to beat Grayface, you have to beat him at his own game.  Some Discordians act like they want to do away with all laws, but they're retarded.

P3nT4gR4m

There is order within chaos but that order only exists within the context of chaos, within a greater chaos if you will. Often it amuses the primate to create little pockets of order or rearrange said to suit primates whim or ambition. This is good. This is creativity. One doesn't create - one merely rearranges the particles. Whether those particles be matter or thought or sound or any other expression of energy. Primate organises particles. Primate is pleased with it's work. Otherwise primate reconfigures or abandons it's configuration.

Meanwhile all else is chaos. On a broader scale even the interactions of primates with each other's configurations, and the interactions of the configurations with each other and with each others primates, is, essentially, chaotic in nature.

Working metaphysical overview ...

... for now ...

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Cain

Quotethere's the mathematical one that means no more than "small difference in initial conditions shall have large difference in conditions over time (growing exponentially over time in fact)"
which may be applied to "living in a chaotic world"
but i don't quite see how that fits to "an entire country rounded up" type chaos?

Because it works from a small misinterpretation of how the world works, added on another, added on another etc etc until it builds up a momentum all of its own and could likely never be stopped without a major change in history as we know it.

And good stuff from Silly too.  Of course, some scientists have actually sat down and figured out this sort of stuff and while what he (Silly) says may look depressing, there is still area for much creativity, especially in artistic fields.

AFK

I look at Chaos as a a slight step down from the Universe.  There's the stuff we can understand, ordered chaos, the stuff we can't seem to understand or are trying to understand, disordered chaos, and then the stuff we don't even see, infra chaos.  But this is somewhat arbitrary labeling based on our human concepts and our penchant for categorizing stuff.  But I see chaos being to the universe as dark matter is to outer space.  does that make sense?

So what does the BIP have to do with chaos?  I think it begins to recognize chaos but also begins to recognize that there is so much that we don't recognize and just can't comprehend, at least, not yet.  But, that we try to better understand what we do see and never stop wanting to see more of it. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.