Messages

So your assertion that you can't have an evil bad stand is retarded, and

EITHER
     so are you for not understanding,

OR
     you're trolling, in which case arguing with you being pointless should be acknlowledged.

FREAKY

          !! (love the flashback!!)

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

OK,

          i never said that you said (like that?) people from the south are subhuman. i did say that "most immediate reaction" denoted thusly. i totally remember you phoning me while you were in texas with all this surprise about the back-assedness of it all, and all i could do was laugh, because i thought, "what the hell did you expect?"

HOWEVER,

          roger, calling someone "billygoon" isn't necessarily not calling them sub-human 

Okay, whatever.  Since you're going to put words in my mouth, there's no need for me to be in the conversation.

GOOD REVEREND ROGER,

          you said billygoon. i'm not putting words in your mouth. why is that becoming a theme in this thread?

I CAME

          across this article by jim goad in response to this event.
http://takimag.com/article/the_nagging_persistence_of_tribalism_jim_goad/print#ixzz208WYoFDw

JIM IS NOT

           for mass consumption, but he's always got an interesting perspective. if you're not familiar with him as a writer, he's the author of "answer me!" which was a '90's publication addressing just about anything that would make most folks uncomfortable. i used to work at a university copy store which also serviced all of the library copiers. in our break room, under a set of stairs, a librarian discovered a co-workers compiled edition of "answer me!" and demanded we fire my co-worker or the library would terminate their agreement with us as their providers. my boss and i went to meet the librarian head because my boss , the ultimate teddy bear that he was, was completely willing to cave into her. During the meeting she (the library head) ranted about the offensiveness of the book and the criminality of him (coworker) bringing such literature into the library. I couldn't stand it anymore and pointed out that this very week (at that time), was "banned book week", with huge displays on the library main floor, and if she continued to insist on this measure i was going to cover the campus in her demands highlighting that this was occurring during "BBW" and what a hypocrisy the library staff was. the meeting ended abruptly, my boss was blushed and my co-worker kept his job. Jim also authored "the redneck manifesto" and is an amazing editorial writer in general. he used to write for a stripper & prostitute magazine here in portland and his articles were so frickin hilarious, it actually made the rag worth grabbing.

And GA may have her head firmly up her poop chute, but that doesn't mean she wasn't right about alot of what she said. Which is kind of the point, that the discussion here needs to move beyond emotional knee-jerk shit if any sort of real understanding is to be had.

If the Klan is indeed only a social club, and a lack of Klan convictions by all-White juries from 1900-1975 is proof that the Klan is only a social club, then I suppose you are correct concerning her motivations.

WHAT

          was the time frame of the civil war? and when was the first(original kkk) began and ended?

WHICH IS

          the actual content relating to this thread and not the klan in 2012...

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

Odd, since the implied stance of everyone ITT engaging in anti-southern bigotry seems to be "defending the south in any way implies racism".

THANK YOU!

          i have to state again, that vex is achieving the unthinkable in bringing this topic to the table and providing completely supported and rational conversation, which is being met with some equally disappointing response.  consider at the fact that i can hardly keep up with this thread cuz it's so explosive!

IT IS TOTALLY O.K.

          to not agree with one another, i am personally all about that, but can we discuss this without all the gutter opinion?

MAN,

          if i said that all africans were stupid, because clearly they're not winning any major military achievements, even if they tried, would you be ok with that? or if i said blacks were slaves because they're stupid, that'd be alright?

HELL NO!

          why are only ech, nigel, vex and g. applesauce able to approach this topic in a reasonable manner? and freaky?

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

With the exception of the "South shall rise again" bit, that's the exact same as everywhere else in America. I am, however, enjoying the irony of watching people turn southerners into "Other" for the crime of, uhh, turning other people into "Other".

As I said, keeping the South was a mistake, as the bastards contaminated the rest of the country.

And as far as I'm concerned, all humans are "Other".  That's why I hang out with freaks.

ROGER,

          so we are to understand that all people from the south are bastards which contaminated the rest of the country? that's not bigoted. saying you hang out with "freaks" is not a get out of jail free card when you are insisting an entire culture of people are a contaminant. sure, that is also all people, but that's not what you are saying. what about blacks who live in the south?

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

          cain generalized a group of people and called them idiots. his insistence on bringing this discussion into some military tactics format is simply missing the point entirely, aside from that, i think the "revisionist history is canon: to argue implies racism" makes no sense to me. how is wanting to broaden others perspectives bad? what's this about "revisionist history"?

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

OK,

          i never said that you said (like that?) people from the south are subhuman. i did say that "most immediate reaction" denoted thusly. i totally remember you phoning me while you were in texas with all this surprise about the back-assedness of it all, and all i could do was laugh, because i thought, "what the hell did you expect?"

HOWEVER,

          roger, calling someone "billygoon" isn't necessarily not calling them sub-human 

[want]

DEAR TEXAS FAIRy

          in regards to the original klan (kkk) having not lasted long, you are correct. it was officially/ voluntarily disbanded just a few years after it's creation. There are absolutely books on the black klan chapters available.

SIMILAR

          to the worthlessness of the contemporary or "king james' bible, being a text altered over time to reflect contemporary viewpoints or even, political objectives, it's not a mistake that accurate historical perspectives are difficult to dig up. For instance, I'm not at home to dig through my personal library, but following just a few links that were not either wiki, the southern poverty law center or the adl, the two "kkk" sites i visited looking for a history of the klan, in my opinion were totally not, not, not real klan sites because the wording was just too trigger happy and not believable.

THAT SAID,

          something what may help move things along could be perhaps vex and golden applesauce helping us out with some sources for what early southern reactions were in this period & also accounts of black n white relations prior to the civil war. ?

SO FAR AS

          slavery is concerned. since the many individuals who chose indentured servitude as their ticket to america is concerned (due to the cost of simply getting to the "new world") were accounted for as actual passangers on a ship, not as cargo, we have no real numbers to represent, what is believed to be a great amount, of white slaves in the u.s. africans were actually purchased as part of an existing slave trade in africa. quite unlike the made for t.v. version. thusly, there are records of how many purchased from where and where they went to.

IN REGARDS TO

          your earlier inquiry as to "how can it happen?!" that seemingly/ assumedly rational people can view others as livestock, that's a great fucking question. but apparently we humans are big fans of it. similarly, i voiced to nigel the other day that i can't wrap my head around the fact that a bunch of extremely xenophobic people would even want something as alien to them as black africans, anywhere in their culture, even as slaves. but then we, as soldiers, can burn a barn full of women and children. why? how?

I FEEL

          that what vex and ga are getting at, is that over time, where european americans and african slaves had coexisted, the nature of their relationships began to change, to become something more approaching a real understanding of one another, with slavery already on its way out the (side) door, but the politics of the civil war borked all that, and twisted it. i hope i'm not digressing or derailing this too much.

But my point in the beginning was that a lot of klan members weren't convicted because of institutionalized racism. A lot of judges were klan affiliated. We're talking about an era when Kennedy had to send in the National Guard to escort kids to school.

I BELIEVE

          there are three separate and distinctive historical eras of the kkk. That which developed around the period of the civil war was inherently different in it's nature and purpose than the present day kkk, which would be connected to the time of Kennedy. I feel that here is perhaps a point of misinterpreting what golden applesauce was saying in regards to the kkk earlier, which i have to assume was a comment about the original kkk.

Uhhh...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#First_KKK
"The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, by six veterans of the Confederate Army...Klan groups spread throughout the South as an insurgent movement during the Reconstruction era in the United States. As a secret vigilante group, the Klan targeted freedmen and their allies; it sought to restore white supremacy by threats and violence, including murder, against black and white Republicans."

Second KKK:
"Its official rhetoric focused on the threat of the Catholic Church, using anti-Catholicism and nativism. Its appeal was directed exclusively at white Protestants. Some local groups took part in attacks on private houses and carried out other violent activities. The violent episodes were generally in the South.
..."At its peak in the mid-1920s, the organization claimed to include about 15% of the nation's eligible population, approximately 4–5 million men. Internal divisions, criminal behavior by leaders, and external opposition brought about a collapse in membership, which had dropped to about 30,000 by 1930"

Weren't lynchings pretty common in the 20's and 30's?

Third KKK:
The "Ku Klux Klan" name was used by many independent local groups opposing the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation, especially in the 1950s and 1960s. During this period, they often forged alliances with Southern police departments, as in Birmingham, Alabama; or with governor's offices, as with George Wallace of Alabama. Several members of KKK groups were convicted of murder in the deaths of civil rights workers and children in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham."

LISTEN TEXAS FAIRy

          although wiki is the undisputed authority of all information, i'm not seeking to create a splinter thread here. however, please have patience and give me a bit of time to respond to this. The very first kkk i know to have actually had "black"/ african "american" chapters and the creation of which, had a markedly different purpose and function than the two later incarnations.

PLEASE,

          understand that i'm making this point purely because i believe this issue actually is that complex and more than worth our attention. i am not from the south nor am i a christian, i do not identify with the viewpoints of the kkk.

MOST PROBABLY,

          if i were to be instantly transported to your location in texas or anywhere in the south, my life expectancy would be about five minutes before a bunch of guys in a truck showed up to eliminate my ass.

If that. I expect some sort of half-hearted apology and vague promises that never come to fruition.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/2012/07/08/jan-brewer-asks-supreme-court-strip-benefits-same-sex-partners

          Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer is asking the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn a ruling which provides  domestic-partner benefits to same-sex partners of state employees.

I have lost the ability to can with that woman.

I WANT TO MARRY HER

          because i'm convinced she's actually quentin crisp pulling off one of the world's top five trolls, successfully. and she's beautiful. which gives quentin away, right there.

But my point in the beginning was that a lot of klan members weren't convicted because of institutionalized racism. A lot of judges were klan affiliated. We're talking about an era when Kennedy had to send in the National Guard to escort kids to school.

I BELIEVE

          there are three separate and distinctive historical eras of the kkk. That which developed around the period of the civil war was inherently different in it's nature and purpose than the present day kkk, which would be connected to the time of Kennedy. I feel that here is perhaps a point of misinterpreting what golden applesauce was saying in regards to the kkk earlier, which i have to assume was a comment about the original kkk.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/2012/07/08/jan-brewer-asks-supreme-court-strip-benefits-same-sex-partners

          Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer is asking the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn a ruling which provides  domestic-partner benefits to same-sex partners of state employees.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2170249/I-thought-innocent-protected---hard-lesson-Celebrity-photographer-kicked-Muslim-woman-tried-help-tells-pain-branded-racist.html#ixzz201R38Idc

          I wasn't trying to be inflammatory, or condescending, or implying anything about their race or religion,' she says. 'I was trying to make sure the woman was OK because I don't think women generally do enough in small ways to help one another.

'I think he misconstrued my offer of help. I made him uncomfortable because he wasn't helping her.'

The couple became infuriated. 'The husband came up behind me and said in my ear, "You f*** off," which I found very intimidating,' Miss Heathcote-Drury says. 'I wanted to get out of the shop as quickly as possible, but he approached me again.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2170249/I-thought-innocent-protected---hard-lesson-Celebrity-photographer-kicked-Muslim-woman-tried-help-tells-pain-branded-racist.html#ixzz203mtsq5k




          !

HAVE WE

          explored the "red neck turtle burger? http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151260842138438&set=a.428464543437.216550.135370908437&type=1&theater