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Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme

Started by Faust, April 09, 2013, 02:28:19 PM

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LMNO


Cain

Magnets, uh Austrian fascist sympathisers, uh guys who admire Pinochet as the model of effective government, uh glorious selfish visionaries who will take their ball home if you fail to recognise their genuis you moocher.

Maths or something, I guess.

Junkenstein

So the problem is inflation? And you think this will be less of a problem within a system with currently no real checks or balances and an arbitrary inflation/distribution mechanism? And this sounds like a better system because why? The only places I can see such kind of currencies having a real use would be in economies already FUBAR'd. Zimbabwe springs to mind. That said, it still solves nothing to solve the underlying problem of nation states largely needing/wanting control of currency to stop internal economies turning to shit.

QuoteI still think Bitcoin can be better than what we are using now

Have you even read this thread? I ask as the problems are, well, there's a fucking few and I can't see how you get to this conclusion at all.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

LMNO

Quote from: Cain on May 13, 2014, 10:31:29 PM
Magnets, uh Austrian fascist sympathisers, uh guys who admire Pinochet as the model of effective government, uh glorious selfish visionaries who will take their ball home if you fail to recognise their genuis you moocher.

Maths or something, I guess.

:potd:

trix

Quote from: Cain on May 13, 2014, 10:25:09 PM
Funny, the US had a higher rate of inflation before it adopted the current financial model it operates under.  Centralised banks, while terrible in many respects, are actually, compared to other historical methods, much better at controlling inflation.

And let's not pretend bitcoin's own deflation is any less economically troubling.  In fact it is much more so, and there is compelling evidence for deflationary debt theory.  In fact, a deflationary spiral perfectly describes the state of the economy post-2008, when deflationary debt is considered as a key cause.

But, you know, Hong Kong prospered after the Asian Financial Crisis, so obviously deflation's not an issue.

Thanks for the economic lessons, I didn't know any of this.  After looking up deflationary debt theory and your link, I agree you have a very good point I had not considered.

Quote from: Junkenstein on May 13, 2014, 10:32:14 PM
So the problem is inflation? And you think this will be less of a problem within a system with currently no real checks or balances and an arbitrary inflation/distribution mechanism? And this sounds like a better system because why? The only places I can see such kind of currencies having a real use would be in economies already FUBAR'd. Zimbabwe springs to mind. That said, it still solves nothing to solve the underlying problem of nation states largely needing/wanting control of currency to stop internal economies turning to shit.

I wouldn't call the bitcoin distribution mechanism arbitrary, nor do I think inflation is the only problem with the current model.

In the end I just want a better system that doesn't channel money from the bottom to the top, at least not as much as today.  After this thread though, you guys are starting to convince me it's not Bitcoin.

I still hold out some hope though that good can come of it.  I guess I haven't fully succeeded in killing off the wishful thinker inside of me, despite my best efforts.
There's good news tonight.  And bad news.  First, the bad news: there is no good news.  Now, the good news: you don't have to listen to the bad news.
Zen Without Zen Masters

Quote from: Cain
Gender is a social construct.  As society, we get to choose your gender.

P3nT4gR4m

You're a wishful thinker. Me too. What I'm hoping for is something better than capitalism which I've always seen as simply the best of a really bad bunch. They talk about "capitalist societies" and the implications of this are huge. A simple metric for exchange of goods and services actually defines and dictates the fundamental way our society works, on all levels, most not even related to the exchange of goods and services.

It's infectious and pervasive and it's going to take a pretty big cataclysm to shift the fucker. Luckily it's currently going through a pretty big cataclysm, right now, and there's some stuff on he horizon that looks like it could add grease to the wheels of it's self destruction. Changing currency is about more than changing currency - it's about changing everything.

I'll go out on a limb and say that bitcoin isn't the answer. What bitcoin is, is a demonstration of a completely different method of measurement. Problem with bitcoin is it's trying to be capitalism. The solution is something that is trying to be whatever it is that's  coming to replace capitalism.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
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walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

LMNO

Here's the thing -- Capitalism works really well so long as you can keep it under control and don't let it run it's own course.  That means regulations and oversight.  What we're seeing right now are unenforced regulations and shitty oversight, with a bunch of greedy assholes who are manipulating the markets for their own ends.

No matter what the monetary scheme, there will be greedy assholes who will try to game the system.  A given economic model in itself won't fix that problem, it takes people with guts in power to slap those fuckers around.

trix

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 14, 2014, 12:20:05 PM
Here's the thing -- Capitalism works really well so long as you can keep it under control and don't let it run it's own course.  That means regulations and oversight.  What we're seeing right now are unenforced regulations and shitty oversight, with a bunch of greedy assholes who are manipulating the markets for their own ends.

No matter what the monetary scheme, there will be greedy assholes who will try to game the system.  A given economic model in itself won't fix that problem, it takes people with guts in power to slap those fuckers around.

So lets do the ultimate Operation Mindfuck and run a campaign to try and get Steven Colbert elected president.

Even if that solves nothing, still worth doing.
There's good news tonight.  And bad news.  First, the bad news: there is no good news.  Now, the good news: you don't have to listen to the bad news.
Zen Without Zen Masters

Quote from: Cain
Gender is a social construct.  As society, we get to choose your gender.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 14, 2014, 12:20:05 PM
Here's the thing -- Capitalism works really well so long as you can keep it under control and don't let it run it's own course.  That means regulations and oversight.  What we're seeing right now are unenforced regulations and shitty oversight, with a bunch of greedy assholes who are manipulating the markets for their own ends.

No matter what the monetary scheme, there will be greedy assholes who will try to game the system.  A given economic model in itself won't fix that problem, it takes people with guts in power to slap those fuckers around.

Capitalism can't be controlled it's an unpatched (unpatchable?) exploit - Money = power. Enough money = enough power to control the regulation and legislation governing the money itself.

This would not be possible without the consumer mantra -  more money = more stuff = a good thing. This meme is the cornerstone of consumerism which drives Capitalism to it's logical end-game - one monkey with all the bananas. Most players hit their own natural wealth ceiling, they look at people who have more and think one of two things - envy and/or resolve to get that much or more, or disdain - "Those bastards have too much." The former are "selected for" by capitalism.

This disparity in ownership and the greed factor of massive stockpiling will become irrelevant in the next couple of decades. In case nobody has noticed yet we are on a roadmap to the invention of Star-Trek Replicatorstm. Anything that can be manufactured, sold and consumed will be manufactured and consumed on the spot. There's no middleman. There's no "sold".

A molecular printer spits out any consumable on command. The only time a human gets involved is ordering then using the output. No-one sources the components, no-one assembles it, no one delivers it, no one manages the process of coordinating supply to production to order fulfilment. Who get's paid? What costs money? How does one earn money? Who's going to want to collect money? What use is it to them? These are the kinds of questions that come with replication.

The honest truth is, IMO, right now there is enough infrastructure and enough capacity to totally do away with money but it would involve the world, en masse, figuring out that if everyone gets as much as they realistically want and all they have to do is operate co-operatively, from individuals right up to corporations and governments, there should be no secrets and everything should be collaborative rather than combative.

We'd be sailing in so much abundance that none of us, from the frugal to the ultra-greedy, would even be able to get close to utilising the staggering surplus that constituted our own fair share. This doesn't happen because of the capitalism meme, itself a product of a no-longer relevant bio-survival meme that pretends everything is hard to get, like it was back when that part of our brain was being programmed.

The lie that capitalism hangs on - that there isn't enough shit to go around, is increasingly exposed in light of new production and delivery technologies regularly emerging, since the dawn of the industrial revolution. Replication is the endgame. If we haven't figured it out before then, it becomes incontrovertible with replication.

It was on starting to figure this out that capitalism started to bug me :argh!:

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

LMNO

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 14, 2014, 05:17:36 PM
Capitalism can't be controlled it's an unpatched (unpatchable?) exploit - Money = power. Enough money = enough power to control the regulation and legislation governing the money itself.

Sorry to interrupt you just when you started to get going, but nope.

Capitalism is a system where the means of production are controlled by private interests for profit.

What you're describing is Consumerism, which is an ideology that encourages the acquisition of goods and services in ever-greater amounts.

What I think you may actually be upset with is how particular private interests are influencing the markets.  That's not Capitalism.  That's the exploit.  Literally.

And you can find that exploit in every econimic model I can currently think of, including Communism and Barter.

Junkenstein

QuoteThis disparity in ownership and the greed factor of massive stockpiling will become irrelevant in the next couple of decades. In case nobody has noticed yet we are on a roadmap to the invention of Star-Trek Replicatorstm. Anything that can be manufactured, sold and consumed will be manufactured and consumed on the spot. There's no middleman. There's no "sold".

A molecular printer spits out any consumable on command. The only time a human gets involved is ordering then using the output. No-one sources the components, no-one assembles it, no one delivers it, no one manages the process of coordinating supply to production to order fulfilment. Who get's paid? What costs money? How does one earn money? Who's going to want to collect money? What use is it to them? These are the kinds of questions that come with replication.

I'd say you're being pretty optimistic about the timescale involved though I'd be delighted if you were right. If you're talking about a full on post scarcity society, I can only think of a couple of theoretical models off-hand and both pretty much change it into a reputation/social standing tool.

The main problem before reaching this stage is getting everyone in the position of relative privilege to stop fucking over several nations and actually co-operate on a long term basis. Probably worth a new thread to discuss this further if you care to?
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Junkenstein

"Stinks like a dead whale left on a beach all summer and it's just getting really fucking ripe" files:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27830566

QuoteThe US government will auction $18m (£11m) worth of the virtual currency Bitcoin, which was seized by the FBI when it shut down the Silk Road online marketplace in October last year.

QuoteProspective bidders will have to put forward a deposit of $200,000, and all offers must be made in cash.

The price of Bitcoin, as measured by CoinDesk, fell following news of the sale, but has since made a modest recovery.

The bidding process will begin on 27 June.

Looks to me like a nice legal way for the US government to transfer the coins into private hands leading to one investor with a near monopoly and cash for the seller. Everyone wins, apparently.

No.

What this indicates to me, if it wasn't already apparent is that you'd have to be a damn fool to go anywhere near bitcoins.

Taking bets on the eventual winner of the auction. I bet it's going to be a name we know and loathe.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Faust

Its really funny timing,

This announcement came a day before this:

http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-guarantee-shattered-by-anonymous-miner-with-51-network-power/

When 51% of the bitcoins distributed network is controlled by a single entity they have the power to control how transactions are executed.

This was the Nightmare scenario that was never supposed to happen, it means the decentralized currency is no longer that.

The Gov should sell those to Ghash and give them complete control over the bitcoin network.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

The Johnny


It's kind of the equivalent of the government seizing 10 tons of krokodil, THEN auctioning it off.  :lulz:
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Faust

I'm not sure they will be able to find a buyer for the going rate of the bitcoin.

If they sell it off for cheap the bitcoin gets diluted and the price goes through the floor. If they try sell it for a high amount they will be stuck with it and will have effectively burned a huge pile of cash.

Sleepless nights at the chateau