Unlimited Ferguson Thread of police state nightmare fuel.

[hooplala]

When I took security training we were taught that the legal use of force against someone had to be equal and appropriate. So you couldn't use a baton against someone unarmed, etc. could it be because he used a chokehold, which is technically unarmed which allowed it to squeeze through?

Mind you, my training was in Toronto, and the laws are likely very different in New York.

[Doktor Howl]

There was also the guy who got put in a choke hold for selling cigarettes on a street corner and died in hospital as a direct result.

What kind of moron uses a choke hold as a control move anyway?  Shit, I only did a year of ju-jitus and in one of the very first lessons we were told choke moves are potential killing moves.  Not that you really need to be a genius to figure that out - anything involving the neck is potentially a killing move.  You know, due to the central nervous system in its entirety running through it.

Even door security here have to take a training course to get certified in how to subdue someone without killing them.

It seems clear that a huge part of the problem is that police officers have little incentive NOT to use deadly force, because there are basically no consequences. On top of that many are ex-military, desensitized to killing, and have been trained to view civilians as "the enemy"; dangerous and less than human.

Depends.  Officer Hart of Skokie was in fact convicted for flinging that woman face first into a concrete bunk last year.

But she was White, of course.

[LMNO]

When I took security training we were taught that the legal use of force against someone had to be equal and appropriate. So you couldn't use a baton against someone unarmed, etc. could it be because he used a chokehold, which is technically unarmed which allowed it to squeeze through?

Mind you, my training was in Toronto, and the laws are likely very different in New York.

From my entirely too-brief and surface-level understanding, deadly force is permissable if the officer feels there is no other option. 

So it seems that all a cop has to do in front of a jury is say that he felt threatened, and "had no other choice".  It seems like that's what went down on the Ferguson and Staten Island grand juries.

[hooplala]

When I took security training we were taught that the legal use of force against someone had to be equal and appropriate. So you couldn't use a baton against someone unarmed, etc. could it be because he used a chokehold, which is technically unarmed which allowed it to squeeze through?

Mind you, my training was in Toronto, and the laws are likely very different in New York.

From my entirely too-brief and surface-level understanding, deadly force is permissable if the officer feels there is no other option. 

So it seems that all a cop has to do in front of a jury is say that he felt threatened, and "had no other choice".  It seems like that's what went down on the Ferguson and Staten Island grand juries.

That leaves a frightening amount of wiggle room.

[Doktor Howl]

When I took security training we were taught that the legal use of force against someone had to be equal and appropriate. So you couldn't use a baton against someone unarmed, etc. could it be because he used a chokehold, which is technically unarmed which allowed it to squeeze through?

Mind you, my training was in Toronto, and the laws are likely very different in New York.

From my entirely too-brief and surface-level understanding, deadly force is permissable if the officer feels there is no other option. 

So it seems that all a cop has to do in front of a jury is say that he felt threatened, and "had no other choice".  It seems like that's what went down on the Ferguson and Staten Island grand juries.

That leaves a frightening amount of wiggle room.

*cue laugh track*

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

Here's some idle thoughts about things that might help the situation:

1.) As soon as the relevant technology starts to see large-scale production all current police sidearms should be replaced with models that use biometric verification to identofy legitimate users, thus ending the legitimacy of "he tried to take my gun" as a relevant excuse. The officers themselves would also be protected in the rare cases when someone actually does go for their gun. Write your congressthing.

2.) If the sense of espirit de corps among police officers could somehow be reduced or eliminated (though i don't know how this would be achieved), police would actually be willing to arrest other officers that they catch breaking the law.

[The Johnny]

Here's some idle thoughts about things that might help the situation:

1.) As soon as the relevant technology starts to see large-scale production all current police sidearms should be replaced with models that use biometric verification to identofy legitimate users, thus ending the legitimacy of "he tried to take my gun" as a relevant excuse. The officers themselves would also be protected in the rare cases when someone actually does go for their gun. Write your congressthing.

2.) If the sense of espirit de corps among police officers could somehow be reduced or eliminated (though i don't know how this would be achieved), police would actually be willing to arrest other officers that they catch breaking the law.

Ever seen what happened to Judge Dredd Stallone? I have.

[Faust]

Here's some idle thoughts about things that might help the situation:

1.) As soon as the relevant technology starts to see large-scale production all current police sidearms should be replaced with models that use biometric verification to identofy legitimate users, thus ending the legitimacy of "he tried to take my gun" as a relevant excuse. The officers themselves would also be protected in the rare cases when someone actually does go for their gun. Write your congressthing.

2.) If the sense of espirit de corps among police officers could somehow be reduced or eliminated (though i don't know how this would be achieved), police would actually be willing to arrest other officers that they catch breaking the law.

The chest cameras are a far greater deterrent then biometrics, although I'm all for biometric locking on home retail weapons if the electronics can both be guaranteed to:
-Fail in safety mode (gun cant be fired if fault with ID system)
-Fault tolerance of manufacturing to six sigma (3 devices in every million), with a long maintenance cycle (this is very hard in home retail electronics and drives the cost up).

[Junkenstein]

I can see biometric weapons not happening for one simple reason - Reliability. Every force will resist on the basis that they can't be certain the gun will work "when needed". This is going to be regardless of whether the failure rate is higher or lower than conventional arms. Anything that could "put officers lives at risk" will be played up and presented in such ways.


Personally, I'm currently leaning towards arming police officers with things such as RPG's and heavy explosives. Anything where killing a civilian at close range also means serious harm for yourself as well, really.

It's not a solution, but it's at least a way of ensuring that the stupidest officers are kept away from intense situations.

[Cain]

Corey Robin has pointed out some frightening rhetoric coming from the NYPD

http://coreyrobin.com/2014/12/22/a-weimar-y-vibe/

Listening to these cries from the cops—of blood on people's hands, of getting on a war footing—it's hard not to think that a Dolchstosslegende isn't being born. Throw in the witches brew of race and state violence that kicked it off, the nearly universal obeisance to the feelings and sensitivities of the most powerful and militarized sectors of the state, and the helplessness and haplessness of the city's liberal voices, and you begin to get a sense of the Weimar-y vibe (and not the good kind) out there.

But whatever historical precedent comes to mind, one thing is clear.

The entire New York City establishment—not just De Blasio, but political, cultural, and economic elites—is terrified (or in support) of the cops. With the exception of this fairly cautious statement from Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, himself a former police captain, not one of these figures has spoken out against the Freikorps-ish rhetoric emanating from the NYPD. It's not that these men and women are spineless or gutless in a psychological or personal sense. It's worse: They're politically frightened, which is far more dangerous. Because they have no sense of an alternative base or source of power. After decades of being whipsawed by capital—you could trace this rot all the way back to 1975, if not even further—they're simply not prepared to take on the police. Even if they wanted to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Corey Robin has pointed out some frightening rhetoric coming from the NYPD

http://coreyrobin.com/2014/12/22/a-weimar-y-vibe/

Listening to these cries from the cops—of blood on people's hands, of getting on a war footing—it's hard not to think that a Dolchstosslegende isn't being born. Throw in the witches brew of race and state violence that kicked it off, the nearly universal obeisance to the feelings and sensitivities of the most powerful and militarized sectors of the state, and the helplessness and haplessness of the city's liberal voices, and you begin to get a sense of the Weimar-y vibe (and not the good kind) out there.

But whatever historical precedent comes to mind, one thing is clear.

The entire New York City establishment—not just De Blasio, but political, cultural, and economic elites—is terrified (or in support) of the cops. With the exception of this fairly cautious statement from Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, himself a former police captain, not one of these figures has spoken out against the Freikorps-ish rhetoric emanating from the NYPD. It's not that these men and women are spineless or gutless in a psychological or personal sense. It's worse: They're politically frightened, which is far more dangerous. Because they have no sense of an alternative base or source of power. After decades of being whipsawed by capital—you could trace this rot all the way back to 1975, if not even further—they're simply not prepared to take on the police. Even if they wanted to.

Well that's fucking alarming.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I just posted something about waiting for protesting to be relabeled a form of terrorism. I was slightly tongue-in-cheek... I probably shouldn't have been.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Corey Robin has pointed out some frightening rhetoric coming from the NYPD

http://coreyrobin.com/2014/12/22/a-weimar-y-vibe/

Listening to these cries from the cops—of blood on people's hands, of getting on a war footing—it's hard not to think that a Dolchstosslegende isn't being born. Throw in the witches brew of race and state violence that kicked it off, the nearly universal obeisance to the feelings and sensitivities of the most powerful and militarized sectors of the state, and the helplessness and haplessness of the city's liberal voices, and you begin to get a sense of the Weimar-y vibe (and not the good kind) out there.

But whatever historical precedent comes to mind, one thing is clear.

The entire New York City establishment—not just De Blasio, but political, cultural, and economic elites—is terrified (or in support) of the cops. With the exception of this fairly cautious statement from Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, himself a former police captain, not one of these figures has spoken out against the Freikorps-ish rhetoric emanating from the NYPD. It's not that these men and women are spineless or gutless in a psychological or personal sense. It's worse: They're politically frightened, which is far more dangerous. Because they have no sense of an alternative base or source of power. After decades of being whipsawed by capital—you could trace this rot all the way back to 1975, if not even further—they're simply not prepared to take on the police. Even if they wanted to.

Well that's fucking alarming.

Here's a scary thought, based on the predicted forthcoming robotics revolution. At the point where the robots take over even 20% of unskilled labour the prison industrial complex is going to turn into McDeathcamp

[Cain]

I just posted something about waiting for protesting to be relabeled a form of terrorism. I was slightly tongue-in-cheek... I probably shouldn't have been.

Well, one DoD manual and the FBI have already labelled protesting and activism as "low level terrorism".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I just posted something about waiting for protesting to be relabeled a form of terrorism. I was slightly tongue-in-cheek... I probably shouldn't have been.

Well, one DoD manual and the FBI have already labelled protesting and activism as "low level terrorism".

Great. Let's just kick back and see how long until people are getting "disappeared" for organizing protests.