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The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?

Started by tyrannosaurus vex, October 01, 2012, 06:49:51 AM

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Verbal Mike

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 02, 2012, 05:29:35 PM

"Socially liberal" involves a couple of different things.  One is the ability to do with yourself and with your life as you see fit.  The other is a load of different things that can be grouped together as a "social safety net".  This is definitely not in keeping with "fiscally conservativism".

Well, that's only true on a very American/GOP understanding of "conservatism". There are terrific capitalistic arguments to be made for universal guaranteed basic income (or a negative income tax, which is a different way to set up the same thing) but they won't fly in circles which have internalized the equation "social safety net = wasteful government spending" – a meme which simply negates the possibility that the social safety net could be an engine of economic growth and prosperity, as far as I can tell without much strong evidence to support said negation.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: VERBL on October 02, 2012, 05:45:02 PM
Well, that's only true on a very American/GOP understanding of "conservatism".

Oh, sure.  But look at the thread title.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Verbal Mike

Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: VERBL on October 02, 2012, 05:47:07 PM
:lulz:
fair 'nuff

Thing is, Americans can't do things in a moderate fashion.  We have to be screaming and foaming at the mouth about our beliefs, to prove our credentials to our fellow-believers.  It's been like that since we founded the place, after the British fucked off and left us to our own devices (after dumping religious nuts on us for 200 years.  The fuckers.).
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Verbal Mike

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 02, 2012, 05:49:13 PM
We have to be screaming and foaming at the mouth about our beliefs, to prove our credentials to our fellow-believers.  It's been like that since we founded the place, after the British fucked off and left us to our own devices (after dumping religious nuts on us for 200 years.  The fuckers.).
Sounds a lot like my home country, really. :)
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 02, 2012, 05:29:35 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 02, 2012, 05:22:15 PM
I think I see where you're going, but could you please clarify?


"Socially liberal" involves a couple of different things.  One is the ability to do with yourself and with your life as you see fit.  The other is a load of different things that can be grouped together as a "social safety net".  This is definitely not in keeping with "fiscally conservativism".

So, if you define yourself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, either you're a "fiscally conservative" person who wants to take drugs and doesn't give a shit about Gay marriage, or you're a liberal.  You can't really separate fiscal concerns from societal concerns at large.

This is really why the conservative/liberal model doesn't work anymore, unless you're whole-hog one way or the other.

Personally, I am a liberal in the sense that the more radical founders were liberal.  I don't tell YOU what to do, and YOU don't tell ME what to do, on a personal level...But we all pay our taxes and get shit like roads and schools out of it (Jefferson, for example, was a strong proponent of public schools, and roads are written right into the constitution).



But saying you're "fiscally conservative but socially liberal" is the FASHION these days. It says "I may be a chickenshit tightwad, but I'm not an asshole!"
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Juana

Hmm, I think that's my new response to that argument, Stellz.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

Phox

Don't forget that "fiscally conservative" is  also a buzzword that means "everybody who isn't supports wasteful government spending". The definitions of "wasteful", "government", and "spending" might vary a bit, but the essential message is that everyone who doesn't identify that way is stupid.

LMNO

Currently, "fiscally conservative" can also mean, "fuck the poor, buy more guns".

Phox


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

It also means "I don't mind if smudgy/gay/female/poor people do what they want, as long as I'm not contributing to their advancement".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

It is highly notable that it almost never means what it would, literally translated,  mean, which would be "cut military spending".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


tyrannosaurus vex

Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 06:10:40 AM
It is highly notable that it almost never means what it would, literally translated,  mean, which would be "cut military spending".

That is hilarious, in the same way that finding maggots in your ears would be hilarious.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 02, 2012, 05:29:35 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 02, 2012, 05:22:15 PM
I think I see where you're going, but could you please clarify?


"Socially liberal" involves a couple of different things.  One is the ability to do with yourself and with your life as you see fit.  The other is a load of different things that can be grouped together as a "social safety net".  This is definitely not in keeping with "fiscally conservativism".

So, if you define yourself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, either you're a "fiscally conservative" person who wants to take drugs and doesn't give a shit about Gay marriage, or you're a liberal.  You can't really separate fiscal concerns from societal concerns at large.

This is really why the conservative/liberal model doesn't work anymore, unless you're whole-hog one way or the other.

Personally, I am a liberal in the sense that the more radical founders were liberal.  I don't tell YOU what to do, and YOU don't tell ME what to do, on a personal level...But we all pay our taxes and get shit like roads and schools out of it (Jefferson, for example, was a strong proponent of public schools, and roads are written right into the constitution).

That is a good point to clarify, you're absolutely right. The people I was labeling appear to be pro-roads, pro-schools, pro-some kind of social safety net (bot not pro Universal Health care) as long as its in a budgeted plan... and the disallusioned Ron Paulites that really would prefer to see the US military budget whacked to pieces.

Though several of the people I know that call themselves "socially liberal" basically mean "leave your religion out of my politics" and has little to nothing to do with social safety nets.
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