Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Two vast and trunkless legs of stone => Topic started by: Ishkur on April 13, 2012, 07:05:43 PM

Title: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Ishkur on April 13, 2012, 07:05:43 PM
The great golden digger wasp has a peculiar behavioral pattern whenever she returns to her nest with her prey. Like any sensible burrow dweller, she first inspects the nest to make sure nothing has occupied it in her absence, leaving her paralyzed prize near the entrance. When she's satisfied that the coast is clear, she comes out, grabs her quarry and buries it alive for her brood. If she comes out and notices that her prey has moved, she will drag it back to the original spot and re-inspect the nest. If she comes out and the prey has moved again, she will drag it back and re-inspect the nest again. And over and over. As if stuck in a feedback loop, she keeps re-inspecting the nest even when she just checked it a few seconds ago. It never occurs to her to just pull the prey straight it.

This specific pattern of behavior is so hard-coded, so autonomic, and so damn funny that the wasp can be held in this state indefinitely, constantly rechecking the nest every time prankster scientists push her prey around with a pencil. She is not able to logically deduce what is happening. This behavior, called genetic fixity, is otherwise known as sphexishness after the digger wasp's scientific name sphex because this is a pretty famous experiment and scientists don't get out much.

As it turns out, this type of hardcoded behavior is pretty common in the animal kingdom. Pigeons, for instance, are slave to patterns just like the digger wasp however they will only repeat patterns that lead to good results. There's another famous experiment that affirms this because pigeons are just as fun to mess around with as digger wasps.

If some pigeons are placed in a box with a button that dispenses food, they will quickly figure out how to use the button. If the button's conditions are changed so that it dispenses food every third push, the pigeons will still figure out how to use the button. But if the button's conditions are changed so that it dispenses food after a random number of pushes, the pigeons will exhibit odd, patterned behavior. For instance, if a pigeon scratches its feathers a certain way before pushing the button and food is dispensed, the pigeon will repeat that scratch every time it pushes the button hoping for identical results. Before long, an elaborate repertoire of rituals occupies each pigeon. Some turn counter-clockwise twice while others stretch their wings and push the button while standing on one foot. Without understanding why the button sometimes gives food and sometimes doesn't, their brains give way to superstition. They are desperately looking for a pattern in something that is inherently patternless, using themselves as the qualifier.

This is also true with humans. Our tendency toward pattern recognition and adherence is no different than the behavior of wasps or pigeons, albeit with layers of abstraction on top. The first time we do something is results-oriented: We just want to get it done. Each subsequent time is process-oriented: We want to get it done faster, better and more efficiently. This is every student's first day at school or an employee's first week at the job.

The good news is the natural world is pretty well-patterned so being an overly-aggressive pattern-finder isn't a terrible handicap.

Probably the one thing man does that no animal does to a complete extent is anticipatory behavior – the ability to detect causes and consequences in events. Humans plan based on what they think will happen next, not on what is happening now. We observe, examine, extrapolate, record, and react to changing conditions. And we pass on this knowledge to future generations for continuity (but don't feel too special because man is also the only expert at killing large quantities of itself).

Anticipatory behavior was a crucial first step toward security, stability and comfort in ancient living. Neolithic man developed an awareness of weather patterns when he noticed that certain rivers always flooded on certain days of the year, naturally irrigating the land. By hanging around these floodplains and building permanent settlements, a replenishing supply of food was secured.

But sometimes the rivers didn't flood and people panicked because it broke the pattern that they were so reliant on, leading to anxiety, famine and chaos. Man wondered if there was something he needed to do to solve the riddle of the capricious weather. Maybe a rain dance or two would work. Or a human sacrifice. And sometimes, just by coincidence, his kooky actions did work. So he repeated those actions every time he needed the weather to cooperate, unaware of what true effect his actions had if any. This is known as a false positive result, an error in logic and reason, and is the basis of every superstition, religion, and belief that humans have ever had. Superstition is a form of ego – people believe that their actions are causal.

Human anxiety comes from trepidation about the future. We are built to anticipate future events and one of the strongest human fears is uncertainty about what happens next. When things change, it is a common tendency of man to resist these changes. We cannot anticipate the dangers the changes may bring us. We develop false positives in attempts to find order amidst chaos, because what we can control cannot hurt us. And we do it without even trying or noticing. Try it: Turn your television to a channel with all snow and watch it intently for a bit. After awhile you'll start to see patterns but they're not really there. It's pareidolia – your brain attempting to organize the mess in front of you into something orderly and recognizable. A psychotic delusion brought on by your own mind fighting with reality and trying to make sense of it.

The point of this tl;dr is that dischord -- pure Erisian Dischord -- is ultimately futile. However anarchic and free you may feel yourself being, at a fundamental level you are still a slave to your own pattern-worshipping thought processes. You want order. You love structure. Over time, you tend toward routine and regimen, a microcosm of the Universe tending toward thermal equilibrium or entropy. You cannot ever embrace chaos however much you prefer it. Like a gyroscope returning to equilibrium whichever direction you push it one way or another, your brain simply won't let you.

navkat told me to post this.

Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:24:23 PM
I said post an introduction, yes.

YAAAAY!
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:26:22 PM
Quote from: Ishkur on April 13, 2012, 07:05:43 PM
The point of this tl;dr is that dischord -- pure Erisian Dischord -- is ultimately futile. However anarchic and free you may feel yourself being, at a fundamental level you are still a slave to your own pattern-worshipping thought processes. You want order. You love structure. Over time, you tend toward routine and regimen, a microcosm of the Universe tending toward thermal equilibrium or entropy. You cannot ever embrace chaos however much you prefer it. Like a gyroscope returning to equilibrium whichever direction you push it one way or another, your brain simply won't let you.

navkat told me to post this.

1.  What's "dischord"?

2.  Chaos includes order and disorder.  You seem to have us confused with anarchists.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:27:57 PM
He's Canadian...they spell things funny.

Also, he's got 20 more posts before you're allowed to run the current through that cattle prod.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:27:57 PM
He's Canadian...they spell things funny.

Also, he's got 20 more posts before you're allowed to run the current through that cattle prod.

I'm originally Canadian.  We don't spell "discord" with an h.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:35:27 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:27:57 PM
Also, he's got 20 more posts before you're allowed to run the current through that cattle prod.

Who's firing up the cattle prod?  I mean, it's hard to get excited about "YUR DOIN' IT WRONG" introductions, anymore.  Dead Kennedy sort of beat that to death.  I was only saying.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
Biological determinism is so 1970s.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if humans seek order or not.  What they'll produce is chaos.  As soon as you have humans with conflicting interests, chaos will occur.  Human opinion on the matter is entirely irrelevant.

Your anthropocentrism is cute, though.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
Biological determinism is so 1970s.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if humans seek order or not.  What they'll produce is chaos.  As soon as you have humans with conflicting interests, chaos will occur.  Human opinion on the matter is entirely irrelevant.

Your anthropocentrism is cute, though.

The law of unintended consequences is what makes all this shit FUN, after all.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
Also, I wouldn't worry too much, Navvie.  Your friend just has a case of "-ism".  Remember when you got here?  It was all about LibertarianISM.  Now Ishkur has a case of biological determinISM.

There's a cure for that, as you may recall.  Each and every one of us had to go through that cure.

It's just part of The Process™.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:43:04 PM
FUUUN. Didn't I tell you?
BTW, did anyone show you the pool? We have a pool here! And benefits! You sign up for them after you've toured the pool!

SOMEONE SHOW HIM THE POOL.

Most of us opt out of the "benefits package" though. You'll see what I mean.

Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
Biological determinism is so 1970s.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if humans seek order or not.  What they'll produce is chaos.  As soon as you have humans with conflicting interests, chaos will occur.  Human opinion on the matter is entirely irrelevant.

Your anthropocentrism is cute, though.

The law of unintended consequences is what makes all this shit FUN, after all.

That too, but I was thinking basic game theory.

In fact, it goes even further than what I said above.  Even if you get two humans who agree that they themselves staying alive is in their interest, you can still have a zero-sum system in play where killing the other is the best way to secure that goal.  Now imagine a zero sum game with six billion players.

Applied mathematics FTW.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Bruno on April 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
I'm disappointed that there were no turtles in the story.  :sad:

I like turtles.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
Biological determinism is so 1970s.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if humans seek order or not.  What they'll produce is chaos.  As soon as you have humans with conflicting interests, chaos will occur.  Human opinion on the matter is entirely irrelevant.

Your anthropocentrism is cute, though.

The law of unintended consequences is what makes all this shit FUN, after all.

That too, but I was thinking basic game theory.

In fact, it goes even further than what I said above.  Even if you get two humans who agree that they themselves staying alive is in their interest, you can still have a zero-sum system in play where killing the other is the best way to secure that goal.  Now imagine a zero sum game with six billion players.

Applied mathematics FTW.

What happened to the other billion?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:47:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
Also, I wouldn't worry too much, Navvie.  Your friend just has a case of "-ism".  Remember when you got here?  It was all about LibertarianISM.  Now Ishkur has a case of biological determinISM.

There's a cure for that, as you may recall.  Each and every one of us had to go through that cure.

It's just part of The Process™.

Oh yeah...The Process™. I liked the funny sausage-looking stuff that came out the other side of The Process™. Didn't we like, fry it up and feed it to those screeching rat-looking creatures at one point? Or  :?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:47:27 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on April 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
I'm disappointed that there were no turtles in the story.  :sad:

I like turtles.

That was meant to be an obscure Feynmann story reference, used to establish Ishkur's cred.

And I like turtles, too...But they give me gas.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:46:28 PM
What happened to the other billion?

You have to be at least this high -------------> to play zero-sum games.

That or I forgot about them.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:49:19 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:47:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
Also, I wouldn't worry too much, Navvie.  Your friend just has a case of "-ism".  Remember when you got here?  It was all about LibertarianISM.  Now Ishkur has a case of biological determinISM.

There's a cure for that, as you may recall.  Each and every one of us had to go through that cure.

It's just part of The Process™.

Oh yeah...The Process™. I liked the funny sausage-looking stuff that came out the other side of The Process™. Didn't we like, fry it up and feed it to those screeching rat-looking creatures at one point? Or  :?

No, the OTHER Process™.  I had to be cured of accepting truisms, Cain had to be cured of dragging the filth down the street just for cheap kicks, and ECH had to be cured of the clap.

It's just the way things go, here.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:47:27 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on April 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
I'm disappointed that there were no turtles in the story.  :sad:

I like turtles.

That was meant to be an obscure Feynmann story reference, used to establish Ishkur's cred.

And I like turtles, too...But they give me gas.

None of you like turtles as much as Jonathan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:49:53 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:48:47 PM
You have to be at least this high -------------> to play zero-sum games.

:potd:

Now I have to get more coffee.  :lol:
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:47:27 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on April 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
I'm disappointed that there were no turtles in the story.  :sad:

I like turtles.

That was meant to be an obscure Feynmann story reference, used to establish Ishkur's cred.

And I like turtles, too...But they give me gas.

That's because you're eating them wrong, Dok. They go in the other hole...no, the other, other hole. THINK, Dok. You're a scientist...Wherrrre do the turtles go, Dok?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 13, 2012, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:47:27 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on April 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
I'm disappointed that there were no turtles in the story.  :sad:

I like turtles.

That was meant to be an obscure Feynmann story reference, used to establish Ishkur's cred.

And I like turtles, too...But they give me gas.

That's because you're eating them wrong, Dok. They go in the other hole...no, the other, other hole. THINK, Dok. You're a scientist...Wherrrre do the turtles go, Dok?

WHERE EVER I WANT THEM TO GO.

IT'S MY ORIFICE, AND I CAN RESTRUCTURE IT ANY WAY I WANNA.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Bruno on April 13, 2012, 09:03:24 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 13, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:47:27 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on April 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
I'm disappointed that there were no turtles in the story.  :sad:

I like turtles.

That was meant to be an obscure Feynmann story reference, used to establish Ishkur's cred.

And I like turtles, too...But they give me gas.

None of you like turtles as much as Jonathan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

It's turtle references all the way down!
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2012, 09:10:41 PM
(http://thebadmomsclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/smiling-turtle.jpg)
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 09:11:29 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 13, 2012, 09:10:41 PM
(http://thebadmomsclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/smiling-turtle.jpg)

:fap:

SHE WANTS IT JUST LOOK AT HER
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Ishkur on April 13, 2012, 11:40:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
Your friend just has a case of "-ism".

Isms are bad. You should never follow an Ism to its complete extent. Almost everything can be tamed with exceptions and exclusions, consensus and compromise, temperance and tolerance, and to completely devote yourself to a single-minded brand of blind faith is, well, blind.

Whenever you have a blind faith belief in something – it doesn't matter what that something is – you open the door for atrocities to occur. Anyone can be brought to the bidding of their superiors, or be compelled to commit any heinous or unspeakable act, for the sake of strict adherence to a format of social control.

There is a commonality of blind faith in all the extremisms of past ages, from fundamentalist theocracies to military dictatorships, from the totalitarian nation-states of the twentieth century to the Inquisitions of medieval Europe. The holder of a blind faith is static in a constantly changing Universe. It is not what they believe in that's so dangerous – the exact particulars of the belief are quite irrelevant – but to the extent that they will defend their beliefs. This is true of zealots from every facet of civilization, from politics to religion, law, war, culture, race and industry. It is also true for value systems that people show unwavering fealty toward, from holy books to Constitutions.

Everything comes down to a fundamental assumption of faith. But it's how faith is upheld that matters. If you believe in something absolutely from a position of blind faith then you will defend it absolutely from a position of blind faith. There is no room for interpretation: It is 100% true, absolute, and beyond question. You will seek out and destroy its opponents as they are threats to its wisdom and self-evident superiority. You are capable of dying for it and you are capable of killing for it. You are capable of being told to kill for it, and you accept conquest or annihilation as the only logical courses of action. There is no middle ground.

If we wish to live in an ethical world where atrocities do not occur, then we must reject blind faith and accept critical evaluation (but don't do this blindly, of course). The reason for this is quite simple: If you recognize the possibility that your basic assumptions might not be absolutely correct, then you will be much more tolerant of someone who disagrees with your assumptions. Moreover, you will not perceive their opposition as a threat to yours. You will disagree, but you will not die, and you will not kill for your convictions. The door to a better world lies down this path.

So beware anyone who tries to get you to accept something completely and totally on an absolute principle of blind faith, for they think themselves masters of your soul. If you're going to be swept up that easily by a new cult, populist movement or political rally, you might as well join the army and get it over with.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2012, 12:29:30 AM
Here, we beat the shit out of each other with day-old baguettes if it even seems like an ism is manifesting. It doesn't hurt as much as say, a baseball bat but it stings and it's oddly demoralizing.

*BAP!*

"What the fuck was THAT for?!?"

"An ism landed on your FAYCE."

Welcome aboard! And do check out that pool.

or  :?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 14, 2012, 01:27:48 AM
I like this new one because it's making an effort, but not trying too hard.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:03:46 AM
Quote from: Ishkur on April 13, 2012, 11:40:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 13, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
Your friend just has a case of "-ism".

Isms are bad. You should never follow an Ism to its complete extent. Almost everything can be tamed with exceptions and exclusions, consensus and compromise, temperance and tolerance, and to completely devote yourself to a single-minded brand of blind faith is, well, blind.

Whenever you have a blind faith belief in something – it doesn't matter what that something is – you open the door for atrocities to occur. Anyone can be brought to the bidding of their superiors, or be compelled to commit any heinous or unspeakable act, for the sake of strict adherence to a format of social control.


THIS.

The only thing I have complete faith in is my own omnifallibility.  I could fuck up a wet dream.  There is nothing so simple that I cannot run it 80 yards toward the wrong end zone.

This gives me a certain amount of latitude that perfectionists and True Believers (in whatever) do not enjoy.  Like the man said, "Drop your pants and roll in your mistakes."
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 14, 2012, 02:26:05 AM
Everybody fucks up and is wrong. Not just sometimes, but ALL the fucking time. The very best thing you can do for yourself is admit it as quickly and graciously as possible. People tend to forget your fuckups right away when you do that.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Kai on April 14, 2012, 02:28:56 AM
I for one really appreciated the OP. Biological metaphors, especially ones grounded in insect behavior (you had me at Sphecidae) are so attractive to me.

At least, up until the final paragraph. Discord (I know, I know, chord /is/ a word, but discord is spelled without an 'h') is something that happens with humans, because while our minds may be largely ordered genetic programing, we do not all have the same programming. Also, minds programmed for hierarchies, which, unless there is a perfect numerical lock in between people and niches, will ALWAYS come into conflict at some level.

There's good reason to believe that social games are what selected for the human mind. Humans, the perfect embodiment of order and disorder, thus chaos.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:30:43 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 02:28:56 AM
I for one really appreciated the OP. Biological metaphors, especially ones grounded in insect behavior (you had me at Sphecidae) are so attractive to me.

At least, up until the final paragraph. Discord (I know, I know, chord /is/ a word, but discord is spelled without an 'h') is something that happens with humans, because while our minds may be largely ordered genetic programing, we do not all have the same programming. Also, minds programmed for hierarchies, which, unless there is a perfect numerical lock in between people and niches, will ALWAYS come into conflict at some level.

There's good reason to believe that social games are what selected for the human mind. Humans, the perfect embodiment of order and disorder, thus chaos.

Also, humans aren't insects.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Chairman Risus on April 14, 2012, 02:38:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:30:43 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 02:28:56 AM
I for one really appreciated the OP. Biological metaphors, especially ones grounded in insect behavior (you had me at Sphecidae) are so attractive to me.

At least, up until the final paragraph. Discord (I know, I know, chord /is/ a word, but discord is spelled without an 'h') is something that happens with humans, because while our minds may be largely ordered genetic programing, we do not all have the same programming. Also, minds programmed for hierarchies, which, unless there is a perfect numerical lock in between people and niches, will ALWAYS come into conflict at some level.

There's good reason to believe that social games are what selected for the human mind. Humans, the perfect embodiment of order and disorder, thus chaos.

Also, humans aren't insects.

Just saying.

While I cannot technically disprove this, I'm just going to point out that neither appreciates a blast of RAID in the face.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:40:57 AM
Quote from: Chairman Risus on April 14, 2012, 02:38:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:30:43 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 02:28:56 AM
I for one really appreciated the OP. Biological metaphors, especially ones grounded in insect behavior (you had me at Sphecidae) are so attractive to me.

At least, up until the final paragraph. Discord (I know, I know, chord /is/ a word, but discord is spelled without an 'h') is something that happens with humans, because while our minds may be largely ordered genetic programing, we do not all have the same programming. Also, minds programmed for hierarchies, which, unless there is a perfect numerical lock in between people and niches, will ALWAYS come into conflict at some level.

There's good reason to believe that social games are what selected for the human mind. Humans, the perfect embodiment of order and disorder, thus chaos.

Also, humans aren't insects.

Just saying.

While I cannot technically disprove this, I'm just going to point out that neither appreciates a blast of RAID in the face.

Yeah, and both hate it when you hit them with sledgehammers and then light them on fire.

Not sure where we're going with this.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Freeky on April 14, 2012, 02:41:37 AM
I could think of any number of things that hate both of those things.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:42:32 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 02:41:37 AM
I could think of any number of things that hate both of those things.

But not the way digger wasps and I hate those things.

Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Freeky on April 14, 2012, 02:43:43 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:42:32 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 02:41:37 AM
I could think of any number of things that hate both of those things.

But not the way digger wasps and I hate those things.

But I thought you liked getting bludgeoned?  You always shout such nice things when you get beat with The Meathammah.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:44:36 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 02:43:43 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:42:32 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 02:41:37 AM
I could think of any number of things that hate both of those things.

But not the way digger wasps and I hate those things.

But I thought you liked getting bludgeoned?  You always shout such nice things when you get beat with The Meathammah.

It's the sledgehammmer bit.  It doesn't hurt the right way.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Freeky on April 14, 2012, 02:45:15 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:44:36 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 02:43:43 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:42:32 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 02:41:37 AM
I could think of any number of things that hate both of those things.

But not the way digger wasps and I hate those things.

But I thought you liked getting bludgeoned?  You always shout such nice things when you get beat with The Meathammah.

It's the sledgehammmer bit.  It doesn't hurt the right way.

Touche.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Chairman Risus on April 14, 2012, 02:48:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:40:57 AM
Quote from: Chairman Risus on April 14, 2012, 02:38:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:30:43 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 02:28:56 AM
I for one really appreciated the OP. Biological metaphors, especially ones grounded in insect behavior (you had me at Sphecidae) are so attractive to me.

At least, up until the final paragraph. Discord (I know, I know, chord /is/ a word, but discord is spelled without an 'h') is something that happens with humans, because while our minds may be largely ordered genetic programing, we do not all have the same programming. Also, minds programmed for hierarchies, which, unless there is a perfect numerical lock in between people and niches, will ALWAYS come into conflict at some level.

There's good reason to believe that social games are what selected for the human mind. Humans, the perfect embodiment of order and disorder, thus chaos.

Also, humans aren't insects.

Just saying.

While I cannot technically disprove this, I'm just going to point out that neither appreciates a blast of RAID in the face.

Yeah, and both hate it when you hit them with sledgehammers and then light them on fire.

Not sure where we're going with this.

Point. The "can of RAID to the face" test is often inconclusive, anyway. Humans probably aren't arthropods.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Kai on April 14, 2012, 02:58:38 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 02:30:43 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 02:28:56 AM
I for one really appreciated the OP. Biological metaphors, especially ones grounded in insect behavior (you had me at Sphecidae) are so attractive to me.

At least, up until the final paragraph. Discord (I know, I know, chord /is/ a word, but discord is spelled without an 'h') is something that happens with humans, because while our minds may be largely ordered genetic programing, we do not all have the same programming. Also, minds programmed for hierarchies, which, unless there is a perfect numerical lock in between people and niches, will ALWAYS come into conflict at some level.

There's good reason to believe that social games are what selected for the human mind. Humans, the perfect embodiment of order and disorder, thus chaos.

Also, humans aren't insects.

Just saying.

No, humans aren't insects (Seriously Dok?) Humans, however despite their recursive loop awareness, still have fixed action patterns that are difficult to derail. The comparison to insect behavior reveals how much of human behavior is equally automatic. The difference being that we can break free.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 03:01:19 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 02:58:38 AM

No, humans aren't insects (Seriously Dok?)

Seriously.  That was the problem I had with the OP.  The comparison was crap.

Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2012, 03:25:03 AM
I was thinking about this in the car on the way to the store tonight. I was thinking about how alllll of the world's problems could be solved if everyone would just shut the fuck up and think logically. And then I was like "Well, there are all these cultural differences and...NO! Cultural differences, BULLSHIT. logic transcends stupid ideas like "cultural differences. Scientific theory. Apply it. Bam. ALL DEVIANTS SHALL BE SHOT."

There ain't no fascist like a Libertarian scorned.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 03:25:42 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 03:25:03 AM
I was thinking about this in the car on the way to the store tonight. I was thinking about how alllll of the world's problems could be solved if everyone would just shut the fuck up and think logically. And then I was like "Well, there are all these cultural differences and...NO! Cultural differences, BULLSHIT. logic transcends stupid ideas like "cultural differences. Scientific theory. Apply it. Bam. ALL DEVIANTS SHALL BE SHOT."

There ain't no fascist like a Libertarian scorned.

Hell with that.  People start thinking logically, I'm gonna go batshit.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Freeky on April 14, 2012, 03:26:30 AM
:lol: Why?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2012, 03:27:23 AM
Because it'll be us or Them.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 03:32:29 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 14, 2012, 03:26:30 AM
:lol: Why?

Logic is no way to run a human.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2012, 03:36:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 03:32:29 AM
Logic is no way to run a human.

Stolen.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Don Coyote on April 14, 2012, 03:47:51 AM
I'm not really sure what to make of this. Although I am sad that I did not get to go 'Dischord? Are you a musician or something?"
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 14, 2012, 04:05:19 AM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on April 14, 2012, 03:47:51 AM
I'm not really sure what to make of this. Although I am sad that I did not get to go 'Dischord? Are you a musician or something?"

That's the second guy this month to come in spelling it that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8y0HoopVE
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: CorbeauEtRenard on April 14, 2012, 07:06:04 AM
I admit I spelled it that way deliberately in a screen name when I was young and dumb and full of obsession with music.

That was before I found this place though. Maybe I should see if the admin on that board can change it next time I talk to him...
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 14, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Logic is a useful tool, but it isn't The Answer.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: minuspace on April 14, 2012, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 14, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Logic is a useful tool, but it isn't The Answer.
Thinking isn't the answer if logic is a useful tool?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 14, 2012, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on April 14, 2012, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 14, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Logic is a useful tool, but it isn't The Answer.
Thinking isn't the answer if logic is a useful tool?

Not anymore than a wrench is the solution to a loose nut.

The tool isn't the fix.

It's especially not the fix if it turns out you needed a screwdriver.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: AFK on April 14, 2012, 05:01:20 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on April 14, 2012, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 14, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Logic is a useful tool, but it isn't The Answer.
Thinking isn't the answer if logic is a useful tool?


Well, it always has that potential.  But, by that same token, sometimes Answers come about as happy accidents.  And also sometimes logic can end up obscuring a Path to an Answer if we get too bogged down in the logic.

Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: rong on April 14, 2012, 07:22:00 PM
please to provide more examples of Path to an Answer that are not logic?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Kai on April 14, 2012, 07:40:47 PM
Quote from: rong on April 14, 2012, 07:22:00 PM
please to provide more examples of Path to an Answer that are not logic?

If someone you cared about came up to you crying, would you sit there and reason about what it was that caused the crying, or would you /give them a hug and listen/?

Logic sucks when it comes to emotional content. The Spock (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSpock) is a common trope, nearly a cliche, because such a person fails to actually solve immediate social problems.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 14, 2012, 07:48:59 PM
He seems to be going in his own direction with it, but my point was simply that the tool is not the fix.

Logic can help you get to the fix, but logic can fail, coincidence may prevail, accident may prevail, emotion may prevail, and in any case, the tool is STILL not the fix.

Also, what Kai said.

Logic is useful for puzzle-solving.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way
Post by: hirley0 on April 14, 2012, 08:15:34 PM
Probably True11:15

Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 14, 2012, 07:40:47 PM
Quote from: rong on April 14, 2012, 07:22:00 PM
please to provide more examples of Path to an Answer that are not logic?

If someone you cared about came up to you crying, would you sit there and reason about what it was that caused the crying, or would you /give them a hug and listen/?

Logic sucks when it comes to emotional content. The Spock (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSpock) is a common trope, nearly a cliche, because such a person fails to actually solve immediate social problems.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 14, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
There's logic in giving a shit about people, whether anybody sees it or not. We're pack animals, we need the others. It's just that society tends to push the idea that we all need to be self-sufficient, look out for number one, fuck the others, the poor LIKE living like that, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

You hear things like "according to logic, bumblebees can't fly" (but they finally found the logic of how that's done) and "If the world ran on logic, all the men would ride sidesaddle" (any guy who gets on a horse can figure out how to sit so his nuts don't get pulverized).

A lot of Buddhism is logical as fuck and it still emphasizes compassion.

I just don't think all logic is necessarily cold. Even Spock knew not to treat people like crap.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 14, 2012, 09:22:00 PM
If generosity is ingrained in a culture as a primary virtue, it makes sense. Like the Native Americans making sure everybody ate, had blankets, etc.

It becomes illogical in our culture because there's a good chance the person you gave the cake to will think "OBOY I GOT A LIVE ONE" and try to bleed you dry, or at least not try to reciporocate somehow.

This points up something illogical about the culture itself, IMHO.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Cain on April 14, 2012, 09:24:38 PM
In formal logic, the only thing that's illogical is a contradiction, something that does not follow from the premises given.

Unless you go into high end logic, where things get as weird as it does in high level physics and mathematics.  I recommend not attempting to try and understand that stuff.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.

It's not just that.  For reasons that should be obvious, societies that support the weakest members thrive.  Societies that rely on selfishness invariably fail.

And a failed tribe is a dead tribe.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.

It's not just that.  For reasons that should be obvious, societies that support the weakest members thrive.  Societies that rely on selfishness invariably fail.

America: circling closer and closer to the drain.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:34:47 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.

It's not just that.  For reasons that should be obvious, societies that support the weakest members thrive.  Societies that rely on selfishness invariably fail.

America: circling closer and closer to the drain.

Yep.  There's no coincidence in the fact that we were at our strongest, economically and socially, when our social safety net functioned properly.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Kai on April 15, 2012, 04:16:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.

It's not just that.  For reasons that should be obvious, societies that support the weakest members thrive.  Societies that rely on selfishness invariably fail.

And a failed tribe is a dead tribe.

It's evolutionarily stable strategies, all the way down.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Don Coyote on April 15, 2012, 04:41:58 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.

It's been my experience that people will do kind things without really thinking about it, but if asked why will fabricate a logical justification.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:43:09 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 14, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
There's logic in giving a shit about people, whether anybody sees it or not. We're pack animals, we need the others. It's just that society tends to push the idea that we all need to be self-sufficient, look out for number one, fuck the others, the poor LIKE living like that, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

You hear things like "according to logic, bumblebees can't fly" (but they finally found the logic of how that's done) and "If the world ran on logic, all the men would ride sidesaddle" (any guy who gets on a horse can figure out how to sit so his nuts don't get pulverized).

A lot of Buddhism is logical as fuck and it still emphasizes compassion.

I just don't think all logic is necessarily cold. Even Spock knew not to treat people like crap.

Logic that takes reality into account is often called "science". Logic that is based on idealism is often called "fascism".
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.

It's not just that.  For reasons that should be obvious, societies that support the weakest members thrive.  Societies that rely on selfishness invariably fail.

And a failed tribe is a dead tribe.

Yep yep yep yep!!!
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:44:55 AM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 15, 2012, 04:16:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 15, 2012, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Depends on perspective. Advancement and protection of the self and one's progeny is is logical from a biological standpoint. Anything that lessens your advantages or resources (like baking someone a cake) is illogical from that angle.

No, species longevity has little impact on that.

It's logical not to cause trouble but not to be generous.

Balls.  Altruism is a survival trait.

I think so. Even if you sacrifice your life for somebody else, that might be the species talking. Running into a burning building to save kids, that kind of thing.

It's not just that.  For reasons that should be obvious, societies that support the weakest members thrive.  Societies that rely on selfishness invariably fail.

And a failed tribe is a dead tribe.

It's evolutionarily stable strategies, all the way down.

:mittens:

For real mittens. Damn.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:45:45 AM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on April 15, 2012, 04:41:58 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.

It's been my experience that people will do kind things without really thinking about it, but if asked why will fabricate a logical justification.

Really?

Like what?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Don Coyote on April 15, 2012, 04:49:04 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:45:45 AM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on April 15, 2012, 04:41:58 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.

It's been my experience that people will do kind things without really thinking about it, but if asked why will fabricate a logical justification.

Really?

Like what?

Mostly Army stuff. new soldiers will invariably be surprised with older soldiers helping them in some way. The obvious reason is because they aren't jerks and just help without a reason, but when asked, it's always "well we are all family here" or something else along those lines.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:43:09 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 14, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
There's logic in giving a shit about people, whether anybody sees it or not. We're pack animals, we need the others. It's just that society tends to push the idea that we all need to be self-sufficient, look out for number one, fuck the others, the poor LIKE living like that, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

You hear things like "according to logic, bumblebees can't fly" (but they finally found the logic of how that's done) and "If the world ran on logic, all the men would ride sidesaddle" (any guy who gets on a horse can figure out how to sit so his nuts don't get pulverized).

A lot of Buddhism is logical as fuck and it still emphasizes compassion.

I just don't think all logic is necessarily cold. Even Spock knew not to treat people like crap.

Logic that takes reality into account is often called "science". Logic that is based on idealism is often called "fascism".

Idealism is flawed logic anyway, isn't it?
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 05:16:10 AM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on April 15, 2012, 04:49:04 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:45:45 AM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on April 15, 2012, 04:41:58 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.

It's been my experience that people will do kind things without really thinking about it, but if asked why will fabricate a logical justification.

Really?

Like what?

Mostly Army stuff. new soldiers will invariably be surprised with older soldiers helping them in some way. The obvious reason is because they aren't jerks and just help without a reason, but when asked, it's always "well we are all family here" or something else along those lines.

Ah... but that's not a logical explanation, that's an emotional explanation.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 05:16:30 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 15, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:43:09 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 14, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
There's logic in giving a shit about people, whether anybody sees it or not. We're pack animals, we need the others. It's just that society tends to push the idea that we all need to be self-sufficient, look out for number one, fuck the others, the poor LIKE living like that, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

You hear things like "according to logic, bumblebees can't fly" (but they finally found the logic of how that's done) and "If the world ran on logic, all the men would ride sidesaddle" (any guy who gets on a horse can figure out how to sit so his nuts don't get pulverized).

A lot of Buddhism is logical as fuck and it still emphasizes compassion.

I just don't think all logic is necessarily cold. Even Spock knew not to treat people like crap.

Logic that takes reality into account is often called "science". Logic that is based on idealism is often called "fascism".

Idealism is flawed logic anyway, isn't it?

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 15, 2012, 07:22:14 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.

I didn't mean here. I was in a shitty fucking mood. Cynical as fuck all. I still am but I realize my head's in my asshole now, even if I'm having trouble dislodging it.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 15, 2012, 07:41:51 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 15, 2012, 07:22:14 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 15, 2012, 04:37:55 AM
Quote from: navkat on April 14, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
We're getting more and more to a point in society where nobody cares and unless you can give a logical reason why they should, there's no point in them showing you any mercy or kindness.

I dunno... I find a lot of human kindness here.

I didn't mean here. I was in a shitty fucking mood. Cynical as fuck all. I still am but I realize my head's in my asshole now, even if I'm having trouble dislodging it.

It's OK. The important thing is that you know that there is a lot of human kindness, even if it's not manifesting in your immediate area.
Title: Re: Turtles all the way down
Post by: navkat on April 15, 2012, 07:48:13 AM
I started to read that as "That's OK, the important thing is you know where it is..." (in reference to the location of my head).