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Common Walls Debate

Started by Cramulus, February 21, 2012, 03:49:09 PM

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The Rev

Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on February 22, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 04:36:08 PM
Meh, I think Cram was just trying to help keep things moving, didn't see him trying to poach anything.  Just trying to lend a hand.  A pretty experienced hand I would say.  He really has been the lifeblood to a lot of stuff around here.  I think things are being blown WAY out of proportion, which I suppose is part of PD's charm.  I really don't think dumping on his character is necessary, he's been very straightforward with his intention.

I agree.

I disagree.

You would.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on February 22, 2012, 04:20:57 PM
Net, I think that either you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're letting your hard-on for Roger get in the way of reason. I don't think that Cram is an idiot at all, but I do think that for some reason, on some level, he just really doesn't understand why certain things aren't actually OK, like reposting other people's work on his website without asking (which he just did the other day, and when politely called on it, responded with "I'll take it down if you want"), or selling copies of Intermittens (full of other people's work) for beer money.

A history of appropriating behavior makes it reasonable to draw a clear boundary. There are a couple of people I won't work with and don't want closely involved in projects I care about, specifically because of their tendency to appropriate other people's work.

With all due respect, I have worked and studied in the creative industry for a number of years which have involved many collaborative projects.  Especially on the web, "hey here's what I did with your work, let me know if you'd like me to take it down," is an acceptable way to pitch an idea. With the visual arts it's sometimes the only way to pitch an idea—language won't cut it.

I can understand how not asking directly could rankle you as an author, but posting about it openly in the same subforum that the project occurs in is an implicit request for permission.

Cram might have been a little improper about it, but your reaction has been disproportionate. Do you kick people in the nuts when they accidentally step on your toes?


Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 05:26:21 PM
Well, I suppose "hijacking a project" is "helping out", if you're one of the cook kids.



He was going to fly the hijacked project right into his private slosh fund, without a doubt.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on February 22, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 04:36:08 PM
Meh, I think Cram was just trying to help keep things moving, didn't see him trying to poach anything.  Just trying to lend a hand.  A pretty experienced hand I would say.  He really has been the lifeblood to a lot of stuff around here.  I think things are being blown WAY out of proportion, which I suppose is part of PD's charm.  I really don't think dumping on his character is necessary, he's been very straightforward with his intention.

I agree.

I disagree.

You would.

Sometimes you gotta go, "Self, what's up? What's going on here? Do you even know what you're on about?"
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Net on February 22, 2012, 06:10:06 PM
Cram might have been a little improper about it, but your reaction has been disproportionate. Do you kick people in the nuts when they accidentally step on your toes?

Do you call people "slut" for sleeping with whomever they please, then brag about having a harem a year or so later?

Was your reaction to being called on that disproportionate?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Rev

Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on February 22, 2012, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on February 22, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 04:36:08 PM
Meh, I think Cram was just trying to help keep things moving, didn't see him trying to poach anything.  Just trying to lend a hand.  A pretty experienced hand I would say.  He really has been the lifeblood to a lot of stuff around here.  I think things are being blown WAY out of proportion, which I suppose is part of PD's charm.  I really don't think dumping on his character is necessary, he's been very straightforward with his intention.

I agree.

I disagree.

You would.

Sometimes you gotta go, "Self, what's up? What's going on here? Do you even know what you're on about?"

Do we ever really know?

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 05:43:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 04:36:08 PM
Meh, I think Cram was just trying to help keep things moving, didn't see him trying to poach anything.  Just trying to lend a hand.  A pretty experienced hand I would say.  He really has been the lifeblood to a lot of stuff around here.  I think things are being blown WAY out of proportion, which I suppose is part of PD's charm.  I really don't think dumping on his character is necessary, he's been very straightforward with his intention.

OKAY, FUCK IT.

I will now test this fucking hypothesis by "lending a hand" whenever and however I see fit, with no fucking regard or respect for anyone else.

And I'm going to be straightforward as hell about it.

But, of course, he IS the "lifeblood" of PD, and all creativity that happens here, so I may not be a good control subject.

Okay, if you need to go on with the exaggeration thing go ahead but it's pretty clear what I specifically said and I stand behind it 100%.  I didn't say he was the life blood of everything.  I said he was the lifeblood of "a lot".  And I think that is true. 

But if it makes you feel better I think you are the lifeblood of a lot of stuff around here too.  I kinda figure that goes without saying.  But Cram was the one getting dumped on in this thread for what was, at best, a misunderstanding.  He deserves a hell of a lot better than that.

Naw, RWHN.  I'm the VILLAIN.  The Bad Guy.  Obviously, I did what I did simply to impede the LIFEBLOOD OF PD.

I'm done fucking arguing about it.  Believe what you want to believe.

You don't have to be a villain to be mistaken.

But you do have to be an asshat to dig in your heels rather than just admit you had it wrong.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 06:14:50 PM
Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on February 22, 2012, 06:13:17 PM
Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
Quote from: Twid, not Billy. on February 22, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
Quote from: Twid,  not Billy on February 22, 2012, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 04:36:08 PM
Meh, I think Cram was just trying to help keep things moving, didn't see him trying to poach anything.  Just trying to lend a hand.  A pretty experienced hand I would say.  He really has been the lifeblood to a lot of stuff around here.  I think things are being blown WAY out of proportion, which I suppose is part of PD's charm.  I really don't think dumping on his character is necessary, he's been very straightforward with his intention.

I agree.

I disagree.

You would.

Sometimes you gotta go, "Self, what's up? What's going on here? Do you even know what you're on about?"

Do we ever really know?

Maybe in a quick moment of clarity, but I suspect that is fleeting.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Net on February 22, 2012, 06:16:49 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 05:43:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 22, 2012, 04:36:08 PM
Meh, I think Cram was just trying to help keep things moving, didn't see him trying to poach anything.  Just trying to lend a hand.  A pretty experienced hand I would say.  He really has been the lifeblood to a lot of stuff around here.  I think things are being blown WAY out of proportion, which I suppose is part of PD's charm.  I really don't think dumping on his character is necessary, he's been very straightforward with his intention.

OKAY, FUCK IT.

I will now test this fucking hypothesis by "lending a hand" whenever and however I see fit, with no fucking regard or respect for anyone else.

And I'm going to be straightforward as hell about it.

But, of course, he IS the "lifeblood" of PD, and all creativity that happens here, so I may not be a good control subject.

Okay, if you need to go on with the exaggeration thing go ahead but it's pretty clear what I specifically said and I stand behind it 100%.  I didn't say he was the life blood of everything.  I said he was the lifeblood of "a lot".  And I think that is true. 

But if it makes you feel better I think you are the lifeblood of a lot of stuff around here too.  I kinda figure that goes without saying.  But Cram was the one getting dumped on in this thread for what was, at best, a misunderstanding.  He deserves a hell of a lot better than that.

Naw, RWHN.  I'm the VILLAIN.  The Bad Guy.  Obviously, I did what I did simply to impede the LIFEBLOOD OF PD.

I'm done fucking arguing about it.  Believe what you want to believe.

You don't have to be a villain to be mistaken.

But you do have to be an asshat to dig in your heels rather than just admit you had it wrong.

Thing is, I don't think I had it wrong. 

Thing is, I could state that slavery was wrong, and you'd argue in favor of it, because it's me that's making the point.  You know this as well as I do, Net.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Also, I seem to remember you, Net, having a VERY different opinion on the subject, when it came to "your" fliers.

:lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Freeky

Quote from: Net on February 22, 2012, 06:10:06 PM

With all due respect, I have worked and studied in the creative industry for a number of years which have involved many collaborative projects.  Especially on the web, "hey here's what I did with your work, let me know if you'd like me to take it down," is an acceptable way to pitch an idea. With the visual arts it's sometimes the only way to pitch an idea—language won't cut it.


I notice that you ignored my even tempered post in order to further ignite Nigel and Roger's temper.  That's okay, I'm still going to contribute to this conversation.

With all due respect to you and your profession, this is not graphic art work, this is a writing based work, so pitching ideas via language is the only way to do things.  Perhaps some people wouldn't want their work to be published, as it might be used later as "Permission was given before, so I'll just use this without permission now" reasoning.  I recall Yatto did that with Cain and Roger's work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 22, 2012, 06:23:33 PM

I notice that you ignored my even tempered post

Well, you're legally female.  Net doesn't think there's any need for a single standard.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Freeky

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 06:28:09 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 22, 2012, 06:23:33 PM

I notice that you ignored my even tempered post

Well, you're legally female.  Net doesn't think there's any need for a single standard.

Perhaps, but I'm still willing to see what he has to say to that.  I'm a big fan of letting people make themselves look like assholes, you know?  :lulz:

Also, I think he's riling up you and Nigel on purpose.  He doesn't seem to like either of you very much, and seriously, you guys are pretty easy to get angry.  All oone has to do is ignore the facts, and it's all "Oh look, there they go again!" 

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 22, 2012, 06:33:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 06:28:09 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on February 22, 2012, 06:23:33 PM

I notice that you ignored my even tempered post

Well, you're legally female.  Net doesn't think there's any need for a single standard.

Perhaps, but I'm still willing to see what he has to say to that.  I'm a big fan of letting people make themselves look like assholes, you know?  :lulz:

Also, I think he's riling up you and Nigel on purpose.  He doesn't seem to like either of you very much, and seriously, you guys are pretty easy to get angry.  All oone has to do is ignore the facts, and it's all "Oh look, there they go again!"

Angry?  I always enjoy it when Net thinks he can join up in a dogpile of myself or Nigel.  He won't do it any other time, of course.

Angry in general?  Yeah, you're right.  I should work on that.

Best way to do that is to walk away.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 06:13:57 PM
Quote from: Net on February 22, 2012, 06:10:06 PM
Cram might have been a little improper about it, but your reaction has been disproportionate. Do you kick people in the nuts when they accidentally step on your toes?

Do you call people "slut" for sleeping with whomever they please, then brag about having a harem a year or so later?

Was your reaction to being called on that disproportionate?

No, my reaction was quickly owning my mistake and asking for forgiveness.

What was your reaction to being called on slandering Lys as a pedo (for using the word "girl" in a brag about getting laid)? At least I've stayed away from outright libel and have the spine to own up to my errors.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Net on February 22, 2012, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2012, 06:13:57 PM
Quote from: Net on February 22, 2012, 06:10:06 PM
Cram might have been a little improper about it, but your reaction has been disproportionate. Do you kick people in the nuts when they accidentally step on your toes?

Do you call people "slut" for sleeping with whomever they please, then brag about having a harem a year or so later?

Was your reaction to being called on that disproportionate?

No, my reaction was quickly owning my mistake and asking for forgiveness.

quickly? :lol:

And by the very own standard you set, you are one huge fucking hypocrite.  Your definition of the word "slut", for example.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.