So What's A White Boy To Do?

[Elder Iptuous]

i thought the 'UNLIMITED Homeopathy Appreciation thread" was the bucket for his rubbish.

[trippinprincezz13]

Some of it is materialistic hipsterism, but I think there is also a decent amount of sincere interest and fondness for a culture that is different than their own.  And on some level I think that's cool.  I'd rather have a lot of that instead a lot of "Assimilate or GTFO" attitudes.  Some peope may have a clumsy, at best, appreciation and understanding of the article of culture they are buying, but I don't think that needs to be offensive.  Some people just don't have the capacity to go that deep, but it's cool that they want to be inclusive and bonding with other cultures even if they can't internally move much further than the superficial.

This is essentially my take on the matter. While some of it could be seen as a bit silly, I don't see it as patently offensive.

Whereas "Hi, Bob McGinn here. I am a 10th Generation Iroquois Shaman. For $50.00 I will perform great-grandfather's traditional money dance to bring you great wealth. Afterwards, if you want to step into my Gift Teepee (get it!) I have some of my people's wicked authentic "herbal remedy" you can buy", I can see as being pretty offensive.

[trippinprincezz13]

Holist, you remind me of this song  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINYgVtRVjU

I'd forgotten about that. Sounds about right.

[Don Coyote]

Holist, you remind me of this song  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINYgVtRVjU

I'd forgotten about that. Sounds about right.

played that and my wife said she was having an antiorgasm.
and some day I will get that 'singer's' autograph and ya'll will be jealous.

[trippinprincezz13]

Clicking through the video for shits and giggles and landed on "...and then you look into the eyes of a wolf..."

And then I was enlightened.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's not that people can't HAVE sacred indian objects, it's that they can't BUY them.

But wouldn't you think that the people buying them don't really consider those objects sacred in the first place?

Additionally, I wouldn't think that 'sacredness' is a finite resource.  If you have a sacred (to you) drum, and someone buys it, making it no longer sacred (to you), can't you just make another sacred (to you) drum?

I'm clearly not doing a good job of explaining my point. No one thinks that sacredness is finite, and nobody gives a flying fuck about selling drums or pipes or whatever as long as they are not being sold under the lie that they are sacred objects being sold with some kind of approval or sanction from a tribe. The original point I was trying to make about the fake inipi ceremonies is that it is an affront to Native culture when people PRETEND to sell the sacred to gullible and unsuspecting wannabes, because it causes people to believe something false about Natives; that we do commerce in what we consider holy.

People do try to buy Native American sacredness... sacred experiences and sacred objects... all the time. Remember, it isn't far-fetched for many non-natives to believe that they can purchase holiness, because the Catholic Church has been doing commerce in sacred objects and indulgences for a long long time, and now the modern evangelists have picked up the torch on doing it. So when someone misrepresents themselves as a Native American, by blood or adoption, and sells experiences or objects they claim are sacred, they are speaking for, and misrepresenting, Native American culture and beliefs, and that's why many Native Americans find that offensive.

An analogy that might make sense to you is when people who have a PhD are selling their opinions by calling themselves "Dr.", and receive a court injunction to stop calling themselves "Dr.", because they are not allowed to falsely represent themselves as medical doctors when they are not. Except there's no law against falseley representing yourself as a Native American holy person, or any other kind of holy person. Still, maybe that helps explain exactly what is offensive, and why people may find it offensive.

MIND YOU, not all tribes have a problem with selling sacred objects. But oddly, the ones that are sold most typically, do.

That actually makes sense to me. If I'm understanding right.
It's not the sacredness of the object being sold that they are upset about, but the fact that the people wearing or using that object is potentially giving a bad message about the culture. So most tribes would like to make sure that the person has respect for the meaning of the drum, just as example, before taking possession of it. Which most who use money to get it typically don't.

Well, yes to the first part. But to the last part, it is more that most tribes would like for people selling drums to do it without misrepresenting what they're selling, so that buyers don't come away thinking it's something it isn't, and so others don't end up with the impression that tribal culture is totally all about making a buck on religious artifacts. Something like that.

More like "please don't misrepresent our cultural values" than "please don't sell drums".

[Juana]

Well damn, lol. I think Nigel just said what I spent like half of today writing.


Although to answer Phox's "two way street" comment: Yes, but mostly no
Yes: the dominant group can be fetishized (particularly the lower parts of the group) and it can be dehumanized (I haven't done very much reading on it so I'll leave it at this, but evidently it's called "Occidentalism"), but it's not quite the same, for reasons explained below.
No:
A) colonization and forced assimilation. Need I say more?
B) America specifically exports its culture. Sure, it's in the name of making money, but it's still spreading our culture - our jeans, our music, our restaurants, our movies - everywhere. I also am pretty sure we don't have very much we treat with the same kind of venerance that other cultures have and do. Cowboys are, yeah, a staple in American media, but we don't have special ceremonies where they sit around the fire, their Levis pressed just so, making cowboy coffee according to a prescribed ritual.



Lastly, I think appropriators sneering at the anger of the cultures they're stealing from is an asshole move. The people of the culture get to decide how to interpret their culture because it defines their lives. Does anyone disagree with me when I say that no one else should define other people's lives? And, imo, appropriation has to be looked at through the lens of colonialism. When the sneering appropriator is from the dominant group, it's is re-enforcing their superiority. "We are totally going to take and warp parts of your culture because we think they're neat and you need to stop being a little bitch about it. Never mind the fact that we totally took the rest of your shit."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I dunno, save for hard-core traditionalists, I've found that many tribes have no problem at all selling sacred symbols of their culture to middle-class white people.  There is a tribe in these parts that co-locate their pow-wow with the Moxie festival and sell all kinds of shit.  Drums, pipes, etc.,  But I think most cultures will do this because the thing is, there is a demand for it.  Some of it is materialistic hipsterism, but I think there is also a decent amount of sincere interest and fondness for a culture that is different than their own.  And on some level I think that's cool.  I'd rather have a lot of that instead a lot of "Assimilate or GTFO" attitudes.  Some peope may have a clumsy, at best, appreciation and understanding of the article of culture they are buying, but I don't think that needs to be offensive.  Some people just don't have the capacity to go that deep, but it's cool that they want to be inclusive and bonding with other cultures even if they can't internally move much further than the superficial.

I think you may still be missing a fine distinction. Most tribes have no problem with selling things that look similar to their sacred symbology. Like, you go to Hopiland, and you can find a million and one gift shops (some of them indian-owned, even!) selling kachina dolls. These are not "real" Kachina dolls. They may be made by indians, they may be "authentic" in that sense, but scrupulous sellers will tell you that they are similar to real kachina dolls without being the actual thing, because real kachina dolls are not for sale.

Likewise, you can find all kinds of replicas of items like pipes, dream catchers, etc. for sale. Just because they look like what you think a sacred indian object looks like, does not make them sacred objects.

[AFK]

I'm not talking about replicas, I mean yeah, they sell the cheaply made shit to tourists who don't know any better.  Pretty much any culture that caters at all to tourists do that.  But the tribe I mentioned was selling stuff that was made by the same hands in the same manners as what they would use themselves.  In the end, the only difference is who is owning the thing and whether they use words to describe it as sacred.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm still hung up on the part where I'm supposed to give a shit about ANYTHING that's "sacred" to ANYONE.

[Epimetheus]

I'm still hung up on the part where I'm supposed to give a shit about ANYTHING that's "sacred" to ANYONE.

What about replacing "sacred" with "culturally significant/meaningful"?

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't generally expect people to give two shits about what's culturally significant or meaningful to me. It's meaningful to me because of something in ME and how other people treat it or react to it doesn't change that. Everybody should have the right to their own cultural traditions. Nobody should be able to impede or restrict the cultural traditions of others (obvious exceptions for shit like FGM, etc.) but at the same time nobody should be expected to observe or submit to the cultural traditions of anyone else.

IMO, that's what it means to respect someone else's culture. And trying to put the "cultural tourism" toothpaste back in the tube in the 21st century is an exercise in futility. It's gonna happen. And there's no reason it has to be construed as a negative thing when people are doing it out of curiosity and/or admiration.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not talking about replicas, I mean yeah, they sell the cheaply made shit to tourists who don't know any better.  Pretty much any culture that caters at all to tourists do that.  But the tribe I mentioned was selling stuff that was made by the same hands in the same manners as what they would use themselves.  In the end, the only difference is who is owning the thing and whether they use words to describe it as sacred.

...

That IS the only difference.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's like the difference between a cigarette and a sacred cigarette, if you've heard that old saw.

What makes it different?

I'm smoking it sacred.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't generally expect people to give two shits about what's culturally significant or meaningful to me. It's meaningful to me because of something in ME and how other people treat it or react to it doesn't change that. Everybody should have the right to their own cultural traditions. Nobody should be able to impede or restrict the cultural traditions of others (obvious exceptions for shit like FGM, etc.) but at the same time nobody should be expected to observe or submit to the cultural traditions of anyone else.

IMO, that's what it means to respect someone else's culture. And trying to put the "cultural tourism" toothpaste back in the tube in the 21st century is an exercise in futility. It's gonna happen. And there's no reason it has to be construed as a negative thing when people are doing it out of curiosity and/or admiration.

If you think of it as a type of slander, it might make more sense? I don't know. I am getting a very strong impression that white people's concept of sacred is realllly different from NA people's concept of sacred. IMO taking advantage of hopeful white Americans' desire for a taste of non-McDonalds-ized cultural authenticity to sell them an illusion of belonging to a tribe by exploiting a mockery of that tribe's traditions and ritual traditions is both fraud and a type of slander.