New "organizations" that challenge the state

[Cain]

don't represent any cohesive ideology or material solution, but rather a plethora of different solutions that appeal (by providing meaning and/or security and/or economic advancement) to specific target groups,

are typically networks rather than hierarchies (they are not replacements for the state)

aren't tied to territory (and hence aren't required to provide services to anyone other than their members)

often find extremely profitable ways to finance their own growth

have developed a new method of warfare to protect themselves and extend their power (open source warfare)


Now consider that context when reading this: http://www.ctc.usma.edu/Tamimi/ISI--Fourth_Gen4.pdf

[LMNO]

Intriguing, but I think I'm too dumb to grasp the meaning of what you're saying.

Is the ISI a bona fide State, or is it an organization opposed to the State?

[Cain]

Opposition.  Its not a state as we concieve of it.  We operate under the system put in at the end of the Thirty Years War (the Peace of Westpahalia system, google the treaty) which is totally seperate to this.  It opposes the state in terms of loyalty and monopoly on violence, but it doesn't intend to overthrow the state or replace it (coup or irredentism).  Yet its existence puts the state in a very precarious and threatened position, even when it is not explicitly targeted, simply by virtue of its existence.  In many ways, this is similar to a working TAZ.

[LMNO]

I think I see.  Don't fight the state, ignore it?

[Cain]

Maybe.  TAZ's only seem to appear wherever state power is somewhat sketchy at best.  But statehood itself is a consensual belief.  If state power is shown to be far from omnipotent, a few TAZs could form.  However, they do often engage in violence against the state.  Thats one way of securing the territory and undermining belief in the states ability in the first place.  However, attacks need not be military.  They could be economic, or something else used in maintaining cohesion.

[LMNO]

Would this be a model to be adapted by certian obscure internet groups joined by a common philosophy of freedom and self-thought?

[Cain]

Perhaps....but more on that later.  I had a....highly productive day yesterday (before I read this even) and it may even develop into a loose Grand Not Really That Unified But Kinda Nifty Theory That Discordians Can Use or Adapt as They See Fit.

But its going to take a lot of writing and I do have some work hanging over me right now.

[Triple Zero]

just wanted to say, i have not much to add, but it's an interesting subject. i don't think i will read that paper any time soon, but you made me look up TAZ on wikipedia, before i thought it was just some random term from the deoxy.org fora.

it's interesting because i did read "Chaos: The Broadsheets of Ontological Anarchism", which i found .. interesting but weird (if somebody who also read it would like to clarify it a bit, that'd be nice, or maybe i should just ignore some parts as ramblings), but now that i know there are two other parts to this piece of writing, i'm gonna look them up, see what's there.

[Cain]

The problem with Hakim Bey is that he's a pedo, and a mystic.  This in and of itself is not so unusual (though morally reprehensible), but the fact he uses his writings to justify both positions is somewhat disturbing.  I tend to extract what is useful and ignore the rest (like his crap about Fiume - he doesn't tell you the followers of the Italian poet who took over the city were the forerunners of Futurism and Italian fascism).  You have to be careful with Bey's stuff.

[Triple Zero]

pedo -- ahh, ok that pretty much explain the things i didn't get

it was the "amour fou" and "wild children" chapters that had me going "wtf is this guy saying, is he really saying that" from time to time, which were the points i would have asked clarification about.

the mysticism doesn't really bother me much. it's nice and visual writing, i understand it partly, and for the other part, this forum here has learned (and is still learning) me what mysticism can be useful for and what not.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Has the Internet been, until now and maybe a little while longer, one big TAZ?

If so, then can the Internet be (read: does it have enough freedom left for long enough to support) a new kind of geography where real threats to the Westphalian System might emerge?

[tyrannosaurus vex]

apologies for killing this fread.

[Triple Zero]

that's okay.

i might add something once i read a few of the articles mentioned

but don't hold your breath for it.

[Cain]

Has the Internet been, until now and maybe a little while longer, one big TAZ?

If so, then can the Internet be (read: does it have enough freedom left for long enough to support) a new kind of geography where real threats to the Westphalian System might emerge?

Yes.

Perhaps.  Terrorist groups famously use the web to not only disseminate propaganda and deal with funding/paperwork things but more recently to actually spread tactical and strategic knowledge.  Many of the Jihadi sites have downloads that tell you everything from how to clean an AK-47 to battle reports from the latest gunfight with American soldiers in Iraq. 

A more peaceful example is some of the micro-states in the Pacific, which will likely vanish under the sea in 20 years.  Many will be relocated to Australia anyway, but the UN has looked at the creation of virtual communities to keep these states alive, in some sense.

Really, I think the web is a tool to change primary loyalties.  If a religion or other transnational/subnational ideology can proliferate on the web, it will invariably challenge the state system.  However, I think Bey has said something about a TAZ having to exist in a real setting, not just on the web, although he conceded the two are very similar.  Something like that, I'm not sure, but he has thought about the topic to some depth.