Discipline

[Cramulus]

Foucault's Discipline & Punish may be the most important book I've read in years.

In it, Foucault discusses the transition between the sovereign mode of power and what replaced it. He takes us from the public torture and execution to the modern prison. He documents in meticulous detail how the new "modality of power" manifested itself through several institutions: the prison, the military, the hospital, the asylum, and the school. Foucault documents how new methods of control quickly spread from one institution to the others, in the ultimate service of creating a "disciplined society".

The thesis of Discipline & Punish, put briefly, is something like this: We did not abandon the old ways because they were cruel. We abandoned them because they were ineffective. The new modality of power which followed the French Revolution is much more subtle and pervasive. We help operate it. Power is no longer held by a singular sovereign who can be overthrown, it's been distributed in a way to disguise its locus. Modern power does not manifest itself in a way that can be resisted. It's pervasive in that it fills every interaction we have, it expresses itself through what Foucault calls a "microphysics of power". We're the ones observing each other and applying the pressure of normalization.

Just to illustrate the above (dense) paragraph -- let's look at the Jury. It used to be that "justice" flowed from some noble, then it was handed to judges because nobles kept getting decapitated by the families of the "guilty". Then it was handed to a "jury of peers", so that people would feel like they were responsible for a lawful society. It's not that a "jury of peers" is inherently good at ruling on matters of justice - it's there so that you believe the verdict came from your peers and not the state.  You can't lynch a jury. And if you did, it wouldn't change anything.

And that is a microcosm of how power is distributed and maintained. Nobody really holds any power, but what little they have is a tool to reenforce a greater structure of power. Look at Occupy Wall st - there was a public acknowledgment that the bankers are cutthroat bastards who have been systemically screwing us. So what now? Do we lynch the bankers? It would make no difference. The bankers hold no power. They would just be replaced by more bankers who are beholden to the same power structure and would therefore pull the exact same shit. If you talk about changing the banks, the people you're talking to will tell you all the reasons we need banks and the current institutions and hierarchies need to be maintained.

The executioner's face is no longer hidden - Vader's mask came off and Luke's face is staring back at him.




One of the main concepts in Foucault's description of power is discipline. There is this idea of the "disciplined society".

Code Select Expand

dis·ci·pline
noun \ˈdi-sə-plən\

: control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior

: a way of behaving that shows a willingness to obey rules or orders

: behavior that is judged by how well it follows a set of rules or orders


The goal of disciplining a soldier is to turn him into an extension of the officer's will. Just as a soldier's gun should be a part of him, something he can control as effortlessly as his own limbs, a soldier is a similar instrument to his leader. And that leader is an instrument to another leader, and so forth up the hierarchy.

The goal of a disciplined society is that the lowest tiers are in harmony with the values of the upper tiers. Prison, mental health, education -- the goals of these institutions are to produce docile subjects who are extensions of the current power structures.

At some level, that's all that "homework" is, right? A way of getting the child to internalize the values of the institution while he's not actually there? It takes discipline to do your homework. And we tell students---this is preparation for the workplace. We are turning you into parts of a machine which produces ... itself.



I'm really just scratching the surface here, there's a lot in this book worth discussing. But what's been on my mind recently is this idea of Discipline, and how we individuals should relate to it. (individuation in the context of power, btw, also worth talking about, but let's save that for another time)

On one level, being disciplined is worthwhile. There are a lot of rewards for being able to focus and get shit done, being respectful of the hierarchy, being able to internalize a set of rules, etc. I don't think you can really get anywhere in western civilization without discipline.

But on another level, being disciplined is dangerous. It means you're under control, an object of power. If you're not disciplined, you're more skeptical and critical about the Mission Statement, the War, the Hegemony.

Sometimes I'm sitting in some corporate training and I just want to excuse myself and never come back. I can't help but think about the power and personal control I give up for that paycheck and 401K. We've all gotta do it. Which makes me wonder, was I doing myself a disservice by reading all this Foucault? Is being undisciplined something I should actually strive for? Am I just confusing myself and making myself less effective at my job by brewing up all this cynicism and criticism? To what degree am I served by being an iconoclast? Isn't it better to be focused on acquiring more power?

[P3nT4gR4m]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz 

[Cramulus]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals.

the trap is that your goals are (probably) already aligned with the top of the pyramid. Is "don't get thrown in jail" part of your immediate strategy?

Foucalt talks about how discipline isn't just punishment, it's rewards too. The things you want (internet connection, new kayak, retirement fund, family, being seen as cool, etc) make you beholden to the power structure and normalize your behaviors.

A lot of the things which grant us status (money, academic degrees, expensive hobbies) are privileges granted to those that Play the Game well.

Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist.

I think this is the right direction. The Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut principle. Give the appearance of compliance while doing your own thing.

Don't resist power. Create subnetworks of power - communities and communication networks. Subvert it in a way that is invisible to the pyramid's eye.

[Telarus]

Interesting stuff here, Cram. Thanks.

[JamesStrangefellow]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not.  rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.
Obviously, this is a main point of discordia, that there is an underlying order beyond/within chaos, and we should all march to the tune of our own drummer. Collectively, we are Beethoven's 9th symphony.
The shit is right.
That's why I'm here.
It's an honor.

Also, I really had a moment of illumination when i first read that the executioner wears the mask to protect HIMSELF (or herself, strap down those bubbies, no one will ever suspect it).
I thought he/she just liked heavy metal music.
Never was surprised though when you read about botched executions and you later find out the executioner was completely shitfaced.

[minuspace]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...

From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education...  Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

[Cramulus]

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not.  rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.

I agree that in the absence of authority (being the law, or the church) people would engage in more destructive antisocial behavior like theft and murder...

so why then is self discipline needed?


I want to live in a world where I won't be murdered,
therefore we need external discipline, (ie cops and churches) Yes?
But along with that, we get all this social control we don't necessarily want or need, but it helps keep things stable...

[JamesStrangefellow]

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not.  rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.

I agree that in the absence of authority (being the law, or the church) people would engage in more destructive antisocial behavior like theft and murder...

so why then is self discipline needed?


I want to live in a world where I won't be murdered,
therefore we need external discipline, (ie cops and churches) Yes?
But along with that, we get all this social control we don't necessarily want or need, but it helps keep things stable...

ultimately, self-discipline is not-needed. it's just another paradox PARADOX ALERT

I'm just speaking from my own perspective.

[Cramulus]

come on, take it another step, come to a conclusion

[JamesStrangefellow]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...

From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education...  Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Thanks for that Faul. Isn't 'Let it Be' also what phil spector whispered after he murdered lana clarkson?

We certainly have some wise ones here and I quickly appreciate you.
But realize, it's also what you take from it that indicates to you, your own character.

I was just agreeing with my rhetoric there man, trying to make friends by ass kissing!!! I can't pass someone a doobie in the grace of cyberspace.
It's just my silly perspective, like yours.

       I need some self discipline, FOR NOW. and the kind i need really is different than the kind most need it seems.  To summarize, a lot of things are difficult for me that are easy for others and vicey versey. Im  fine with it.  For others i think it causes cognitive dissonance. But fuck them.  In a lot of ways life is very natural to me when i fill myself like water in its vessel.

That's one way that discordia has helped me.  It helped me eradicate the order in my life that was doing far more harm than good and keeping me from growing as a lizard pig chimp thingy.

i didn't even know i made that last post,  i was getting to something...

[JamesStrangefellow]

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not.  rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.

I agree that in the absence of authority (being the law, or the church) people would engage in more destructive antisocial behavior like theft and murder...

so why then is self discipline needed?


I want to live in a world where I won't be murdered,
therefore we need external discipline, (ie cops and churches) Yes?
But along with that, we get all this social control we don't necessarily want or need, but it helps keep things stable...

I think we're on the same page. If nothing else, we've got the same publishing company.

As a child, a young thing, and now an older thing i really didn't have a problem with someone telling me what to do.  THE PROBLEM is if i don't agree of understand their perspective, I've always asked 'why?' for further insight, education, and growth.  Sometimes their answer to 'why?' is 'because i said so' or just 'because'.  IT IS  VERY WELL KNOWN deep inside that there is NO practical or loving reason for their demands, rather they are trying to browbeat me into the compliance of their own belief system. That alone should tell you enough about their belief system, but further research into it frequently leads to dogmatic juxtapositions that screw the 'why guy' and reward the greyface.
Coincidence or phenomenon?

[JamesStrangefellow]

come on, take it another step, come to a conclusion

Yesterday, i saw 6 geese swimming in the lake outside my home.
One parent in front, 4 babies lined perfectly,  one parent in back; all swimming in unison and harmony.
And i thought,  the geese marines must really fucking kick tailfeather!

[minuspace]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...

From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education...  Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Thanks for that Faul. Isn't 'Let it Be' also what phil spector whispered after he murdered lana clarkson?

We certainly have some wise ones here and I quickly appreciate you.
But realize, it's also what you take from it that indicates to you, your own character.

I was just agreeing with my rhetoric there man, trying to make friends by ass kissing!!! I can't pass someone a doobie in the grace of cyberspace.
It's just my silly perspective, like yours.

       I need some self discipline, FOR NOW. and the kind i need really is different than the kind most need it seems.  To summarize, a lot of things are difficult for me that are easy for others and vicey versey. Im  fine with it.  For others i think it causes cognitive dissonance. But fuck them.  In a lot of ways life is very natural to me when i fill myself like water in its vessel.

That's one way that discordia has helped me.  It helped me eradicate the order in my life that was doing far more harm than good and keeping me from growing as a lizard pig chimp thingy.

i didn't even know i made that last post,  i was getting to something...

Right.  My character is persistently questioned.  And that's where the perspective matters.  If you think this is all a matter of opinion, then yes, that is silly.  By extension, what distinguishes your self-discipline from the orders to which you were previously subject, is probably just semantics.

I mean this not to be crude but to draw attention to the source from which many learn self-discipline.  In my limited experience, the most rigorous programs have, explicitly or not, borrowed heavily from martial traditions.  Now you see where I am going with this, and yes, forms such as Aikido or Tai-Chi can serve a s notable exceptions.  Still, having any of that discipline without self-knowledge will result in your being used as a pawn.  That is why I emphasize the education, which when correctly applied, naturally gives rise to discipline.  I think otherwise we run the risk of mistakenly showing-up at the next right-wing rally, that's all.

Look at me - My greatest disappointment is not having a cut a record with this guy

[JamesStrangefellow]

Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz

I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...

From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education...  Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Thanks for that Faul. Isn't 'Let it Be' also what phil spector whispered after he murdered lana clarkson?

We certainly have some wise ones here and I quickly appreciate you.
But realize, it's also what you take from it that indicates to you, your own character.

I was just agreeing with my rhetoric there man, trying to make friends by ass kissing!!! I can't pass someone a doobie in the grace of cyberspace.
It's just my silly perspective, like yours.

       I need some self discipline, FOR NOW. and the kind i need really is different than the kind most need it seems.  To summarize, a lot of things are difficult for me that are easy for others and vicey versey. Im  fine with it.  For others i think it causes cognitive dissonance. But fuck them.  In a lot of ways life is very natural to me when i fill myself like water in its vessel.

That's one way that discordia has helped me.  It helped me eradicate the order in my life that was doing far more harm than good and keeping me from growing as a lizard pig chimp thingy.

i didn't even know i made that last post,  i was getting to something...

Right.  My character is persistently questioned.  And that's where the perspective matters.  If you think this is all a matter of opinion, then yes, that is silly.  By extension, what distinguishes your self-discipline from the orders to which you were previously subject, is probably just semantics.

I mean this not to be crude but to draw attention to the source from which many learn self-discipline.  In my limited experience, the most rigorous programs have, explicitly or not, borrowed heavily from martial traditions.  Now you see where I am going with this, and yes, forms such as Aikido or Tai-Chi can serve a s notable exceptions.  Still, having any of that discipline without self-knowledge will result in your being used as a pawn.  That is why I emphasize the education, which when correctly applied, naturally gives rise to discipline.  I think otherwise we run the risk of mistakenly showing-up at the next right-wing rally, that's all.

Look at me - My greatest disappointment is not having a cut a record with this guy

I agree with the heart of your sentiment wholeheartedly.
Understanding leads to discipline not the other way around.
That's how i try to do it.
Discipline without understanding is fear.
One time someone told me no one can love what they fear.

I would also say perspective and opinion are two entirely different things to me, but there is a lot of overlap i guess.
One is inherently aware of their opinion but not of their perspective?
Once perspective develops awareness it becomes opinion?
just typing stuff out here...

[minuspace]

I would also say perspective and opinion are two entirely different things to me, but there is a lot of overlap i guess.
One is inherently aware of their opinion but not of their perspective?
Once perspective develops awareness it becomes opinion?

Opinions are vain speculation serving as surrogates to thought: most people don't even develop their own, so awareness plays no part.  The perspective would be in discerning the ground of understanding upon which differing opinions share a more primordial unity.  For all the change and futile exchange of opinions, we have forgotten that once disclosed clearing of similarity.  Over and against these dancing shadows it remains again the UNKNOWN KNOWN.  Always there withdrawing before those things you mistake for thoughts.