I have said before, I am saying again: people are social creatures.
Give 100 people a moral dilemma, and most of them will resolve it in the same way. Is it cultural? Probably. But the thing is, we're all made of the same kind of meat. The juices that run through our brains might vary from person to person, but evolution has handed us a very powerful tool. We're on top of the food chain for a reason. Millions of years of history screaming at us to use that lump of fat three feet above our ass.
And yet.
And yet everyone encounters stupid people every day. People who just don't seem to think about anything. Who don't consider how something works, or the consequences of their actions, or whether they might be wrong.
The thing is, we don't really have to think any more. Modern culture has removed that necessity. It is entirely possible to fill up an entire day with noise. Radio, tv, 24 hour news, movies, iPods, blackberries, malls, fast food drive throughs.
And, worst of all, the internet.
Now, I love the internet. I can't get enough of it. It's a fountain of information and entertainment. I've talked to some pretty interesting people on the internet. But I also benefitted greatly from not having it for six months. The internet cannot replace actual face-to-face social interaction. On the internet, it's easy to find people who think similar things. It's easy to ignore the people you disagree with. It's even easier to forget that there's a thinking, feeling human being on the other end of the flame war. The internet allows the creation of tiny cesspools (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/).
The internet made furries.
People who aren't furries automatically have a viscerally negative reaction to them. It's just wrong. As far as I know, furries didn't exist before the internet. There is no victorian furry porn. They represent, to me, a total and complete alienation from both the human race and all normal human interaction, especially sexuality. How the hell does anyone look at a fox and think, "Ooh that is sexy"? I say it is because a bunch of social retards sat in a circle and started agreeing with themselves. Social affirmation is a great feeling, even in the flat, false society of the internet. "Oh, your drawing of that fox fucking that lion was so great, do another one!" is probably the first praise any of these people have ever gotten.
Actually, the internet isn't the root cause of any of this. All it does is allow the socially awkward to remain inside and delude themselves into thinking that they have friends. It is a tool, like the flint hand-axe, but unfortunately most people don't die if they use it the wrong way. I can only foresee humans getting estranged and stranger, and so I say, as I have said before: we are fucked.
I'm actually fairly sure that CSI: Las Vegas invented furries.
Reminds me very much of something in The Art of Memetics however. The internet allows for people to choose their own feedback loops. These give them their cues for their behaviour, thinking and so on. Which is fine, as most relatively intelligent and sensible people are going to focus on feedback loops that are healthy ie; fact-based media, communities that give critical or constructive feedback and the sort.
But then, you get something like Furries, or my favourite place to hunt wingnuts, Pajamas Media, or conspiracy boards, or DeviantArt, it all goes wrong. Because these feedback loops are not reality based. They're based on things like ideology, or ego-based vested interests, or mutual jerking off or...well, mutually jerking each other off really, in hope of keeping reality at bay. And that's how you get people like Jonah Goldberg, who are unoriginal little twits, but really believe they are bold, pioneering and sophisticated individuals. Its because they've restricted themselves to an environment where that is all they are ever told. No-one ever says to him in the comments section of his National Review Articles that he's a halfwit and a twerp, mainly because there is no comments section, but because if they help Goldberg persist in living in his fantasy world, then he'll help out when the ugly reality looks like its going to intrude on them.
And that is where brutally shattering their reality via outright mockery comes in.
:? What the fuck is a furrie? Maybe you people do spend too much time on the internet. That last one is hard to follow.
Anyhow,
Here's my take on the whole thing. Long long time ago the Aztecs built great cities. The made amazing things and charted a callendar that far advances our own. They did things we can't even figure out even with all the "technology" we have these days.
And they were savage beasts.
Not unlike our own world today.
But then what happened? They realized it was killing their souls.
Or something equally as dramatic.
And then they returned to the forest to live as their neolithic ancestors.
Something more simplistic and yet so much more rewarding. Answer me this: How many close friends do you have? Or family members? And I don't mean people you hang out at the bar with or bitch about your husband to. Real friends who got your back no matter what.
Five, max maybe?
We are so paraniod (and rightfully so really) we can't trust anyone. We are so alienated from each other, even our own family, that we, as a people, as a society, FREAK OUT! Just watch the news!
Hopefully, collectively, people will realize the mess they made and return into the forest.
Except all the politicians and other ilk. They can stay in the concrete jungle and die from smog!
The Aztecs were fucking slaughtered, their empire dismantled for gold, and their culture erased into Catholicism.
Perhaps you were thinking of the Maya? Oh yeah, they didn't "choose" anything either, they just happened to concentrate too much of their population in cities and also suffered total fucking catastrophe. All those "amazing things we can't even figure out" left to rot in the jungle.
Or hey, how about the Chaco canyon cliffdwelling people? Another great civilization? Did all that astrology crap? Oh yeah, they ended up killing and eating each other. You know how we know that? Archaeologists found human tissue in a human shit in a human fireplace. There is nothing romantic about going "back to basics", it's the nightmare at the end of the fucking fever-dream.
And the fucking basics are shit. There is nothing particularly pleasant about neolithic living, forest or otherwise. It is an extremely hard, short, and painful life. Tribes are survival mechanisms, and just because they have to depend on each other to survive doesn't mean they have to even like each other. I'm sure looking forward to dying of an infected tooth that I got from chewing leather in order to make it even vaguely wearable.
Return to the forest my fucking fat ass.
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on July 02, 2008, 08:06:29 AM
The Aztecs were fucking slaughtered, their empire dismantled for gold, and their culture erased into Catholicism.
Perhaps you were thinking of the Maya? Oh yeah, they didn't "choose" anything either, they just happened to concentrate too much of their population in cities and also suffered total fucking catastrophe. All those "amazing things we can't even figure out" left to rot in the jungle.
Or hey, how about the Chaco canyon cliffdwelling people? Another great civilization? Did all that astrology crap? Oh yeah, they ended up killing and eating each other. You know how we know that? Archaeologists found human tissue in a human shit in a human fireplace. There is nothing romantic about going "back to basics", it's the nightmare at the end of the fucking fever-dream.
And the fucking basics are shit. There is nothing particularly pleasant about neolithic living, forest or otherwise. It is an extremely hard, short, and painful life. Tribes are survival mechanisms, and just because they have to depend on each other to survive doesn't mean they have to even like each other. I'm sure looking forward to dying of an infected tooth that I got from chewing leather in order to make it even vaguely wearable.
Return to the forest my fucking fat ass.
:mittens:, my dear madam!
People always over-romanticize primitive societies.
Always.
You want to die of cholera in the wilderness while the jackals eat your corpse? Fine. Because that sort of delusional thinking is a slap in the face to everything we've achieved technologically, and tried to get away from. Those "beautiful savages" would thing you were insane too, enjoying the current state of living that you do yet still wanting to live and die like them.
Also, the average life expectancy of a member of a Neolithic culture was 20 years old, so all those things about life a "deep, healthy, fulfilling life" within nature is pretty much shit.
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 04:46:40 AM
:? What the fuck is a furrie? Maybe you people do spend too much time on the internet. That last one is hard to follow.
just one tip for your successfull continuing to not piss people off on this board, please do not refer to the peope posting here as "you people", as if they are one group sharing all properties and habits.
we're too different, what we share is this place. i may spend "too much" time on the internet, the next guy might be kayakking everywhere and only telling PD.com about it every week or so. there is no "you people".
QuoteAnyhow,
Here's my take on the whole thing. Long long time ago the Aztecs built great cities. The made amazing things and charted a callendar that far advances our own.
how does it advance our own?
QuoteThey did things we can't even figure out even with all the "technology" we have these days.
just because we can't figure out why they did it doesn't necessarily mean it's something amazing.
QuoteAnd then they returned to the forest to live as their neolithic ancestors.
like RBoG said, no, they were slaughtered?
QuoteSomething more simplistic and yet so much more rewarding. Answer me this: How many close friends do you have? Or family members? And I don't mean people you hang out at the bar with or bitch about your husband to. Real friends who got your back no matter what.
Five, max maybe?
friends i really care about: about 150
QuoteWe are so paraniod (and rightfully so really) we can't trust anyone. We are so alienated from each other, even our own family, that we, as a people, as a society, FREAK OUT! Just watch the news!
nah i'd rather not watch the news. but that's anyone's fair choice, of course.
QuoteHopefully, collectively, people will realize the mess they made and return into the forest.
Except all the politicians and other ilk. They can stay in the concrete jungle and die from smog!
what's in the forest?
so let's see i can stay in the concrete jungle of the Internet Robot Future and de Strange Times, live with a life-expectancy of 73 years, be able to witness it all, craft beautiful complex patterns out of memetic networks and vast seas of information--oh and of course go camping in a foresty area if i feel like it.
.. or ..
i can go "back" to the forest, which is probably really pretty with all the trees and plants and bugs and such, albeit a bit uncomfortable at times, and die at a young age of an infected toenail, disconnected from those 150 friends and family.
it's everybody's choice, of course. but don't imply this forest is so much better than the concrete jungle.
Exactly!
I can enjoy nature too, as unseemly as it sounds. I like to garden, and I like all the beautiful systems and processes and cycles that inspire a sense of wonder. But I definitely don't like it when people make nature sound like a Pocahontas fairytale. Nature is cruel, nature doesn't care about your feelings or lifestyle expectations, in fact, nature is just the name we've come up with to describe the cold, unaccommodating world outside the cave.
And such societies weren't any more pleasant because they lived without the modern faculties that we enjoy. In fact, they were just as cruel and petty. A monkey in a forest or in a house is still a monkey.
As a scout, back in the day, I was expected to be able to survive in the woods. Which I can, with a little preparation. I wouldn't want to try it, however, for more than a few weeks at a time and especially without a return ticket. The forest lacks many things, not least:
Much in the way of human interaction
Books
Wifi
Places to charge my laptop
Season 5 of Lost
Scotch
Mints
All night pizza delivery
It does contain plenty of wood, weeds, rain and annoying little bugs. If that's your thing, of course.
Oh and FYI downspiral, a furry is someone who dresses up as an anthropomorphic animal (which they believe represents their true self, and is almost always a vixen or wolf) and often proceeds to meet other people who do the same and have sex with them. Or sits on the internet drawing sexually explicit drawings of their chosen creatures. And so on and so forth.
Quote from: Cain on July 02, 2008, 12:46:29 PM
As a scout, back in the day, I was expected to be able to survive in the woods. Which I can, with a little preparation. I wouldn't want to try it, however, for more than a few weeks at a time and especially without a return ticket. The forest lacks many things, not least:
Much in the way of human interaction
Books
Wifi
Places to charge my laptop
Season 5 of Lost
Scotch
Mints
All night pizza delivery
It does contain plenty of wood, weeds, rain and annoying little bugs. If that's your thing, of course.
The forest also lacks soft toilet paper.
Quote from: Cain on July 02, 2008, 12:46:29 PM
As a scout, back in the day, I was expected to be able to survive in the woods. Which I can, with a little preparation. I wouldn't want to try it, however, for more than a few weeks at a time and especially without a return ticket. The forest lacks many things, not least:
Much in the way of human interaction
Books
Wifi
Places to charge my laptop
Season 5 of Lost
Scotch
Mints
All night pizza delivery
It does contain plenty of wood, weeds, rain and annoying little bugs. If that's your thing, of course.
I love going out into the deep woods with nothing but a tent, some food and matches.. maybe a small canoe
growing up in a swamp I got used to bugs
actually being with the snakes, bugs, trees and rocks is one of my favorite things in life... never really tried to comprehend why, probably just my cup of tea I guess
Im probably the minority here though
Sure, but half the fun is knowing you can have a steaming hot shower once you're finished in the woods. If it just went on forever and ever and ever until you died....
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 02, 2008, 03:01:24 PM
I love going out into the deep woods with nothing but a tent, some food and matches.. maybe a small canoe
growing up in a swamp I got used to bugs
actually being with the snakes, bugs, trees and rocks is one of my favorite things in life... never really tried to comprehend why, probably just my cup of tea I guess
Im probably the minority here though
I enjoy being out in the woods myself. Actually, I would prefer to be a lot further away from the human population than I will ever be in this day and age.
eww about the furries
pardon about the "you people"
and I was thinking about the mayans btw
and who says you will die in the forest over such minor issues? As our species progressed we learned how to heal ourselves and deal with the issues we faced. And that IS the beauty of todays technology. My hubby lived in the Gila for two years with only random trips into town for supplies (lucky bastard). He didn't want for a hot shower cos he had natural mineral hot springs. Where he could sit and play his game boy. Naked. While smoking a j and whatever.
He had a small generator and plenty of food. And alcohol. And tobacco.
And silence. With no one watching.
If you made it a lifestyle you go with someone who knows medicinal plants and you take a book. But alternative healing is big in New Mexico. It's necessary to know the local plants and have a gps and take modern percausions. Not to do so would be stupid.
And there is a plant called "Toilet paper plant." It's better than Charmin. Soft and fluffy and it grows everywhere. *biodegradable!*
(wink wink)
And I by no means suggest caniblism. There are plenty of other animals for those carnivors in the group.
Quoteand who says you will die in the forest over such minor issues? As our species progressed we learned how to heal ourselves and deal with the issues we faced. And that IS the beauty of todays technology. My hubby lived in the Gila for two years with only random trips into town for supplies (lucky bastard). He didn't want for a hot shower cos he had natural mineral hot springs. Where he could sit and play his game boy. Naked. While smoking a j and whatever.
So, you're proposing that SOME people go back to the forest and live in blissful harmony, while OTHERS stay in the nasty, brutal city where they can produce and develop the technology needed for the bliss-ninny's survival?
I know which team
I want to be on.
Edit to add "city".
And you will have to excuse me,
I am, after all, elbow deep in The Once and Future Goddess,
which although informative and having many wonderful photos and symbols,
is well know to be highly over romanticized and I hold every right to enjoy it while I'm in it!
I'll get to the down and dirty when I'm finished...
Quote from: LMNO on July 02, 2008, 04:32:15 PM
Quoteand who says you will die in the forest over such minor issues? As our species progressed we learned how to heal ourselves and deal with the issues we faced. And that IS the beauty of todays technology. My hubby lived in the Gila for two years with only random trips into town for supplies (lucky bastard). He didn't want for a hot shower cos he had natural mineral hot springs. Where he could sit and play his game boy. Naked. While smoking a j and whatever.
So, you're proposing that SOME people go back to the forest and live in blissful harmony, while OTHERS stay in the nasty, brutal where they can produce and develop the technology needed for the bliss-ninny's survival?
I know which team I want to be on.
I think that if we all ran naked, flocking back to the forest in a stampede,
1.) wouldn't solve anything
2.) overpopulate the forest
3.) cause considerably more problems
Like everything else, cultural change is a process. It's a shift on collective consciousness. If EVERYONE returned to the forest RIGHT NOW many would die and a group of canibals would form and there would be a whole bunch of people dying from thier foot fungus.
Although I realize its much fun to pick on the new girl, common sense is still a necessity.
Please understand we're not picking on you. This is the standard process of vetting new ideas.
You still haven't answered the question of how to balance the production of technology needed to survive in the forest, and actually living in the forest.
Well, in my opinion...
I think there is a cultural shift happening now
as represented by the "green movement."
But there are SO many people...
Some will return to the wilderness, some with and some without technology.
Some will stay in "civilization" and continue on with their pursuit of technology.
Best case senerio is each group will benefit from the other
(cleaner air in the cities from the work done in the wilderness)
and (creature comforts for those in the wilderness from those in the cities)
just one example.
And, as always,
best case senerio is that all the assholes who are power hungry and trying to get rich at everyone elses expense
and who are trying to control the masses like friggin sheep herders
of course
would die out or be killed off.
I don't have all the answers but mushrooms of the magical variety might help...
I spent a ton of time in the wilderness so can safely say that those who return will be more or less dead in a year
the small survivors will grow jealous and try to reenter the cities, and if denied massacre those city dwellers they can find
it will be like Africa
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:05:43 PM
Don't have all the answers but mushrooms of the magical variety might help...
FUCK YOU 50 POST RULE I ACTUALLY FOLLOW
:argh!:
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 02, 2008, 05:12:53 PM
I spent a ton of time in the wilderness so can safely say that those who return will be more or less dead in a year
the small survivors will grow jealous and try to reenter the cities, and if denied massacre those city dwellers they can find
it will be like Africa
If we couldn't survive in the wilderness then our species wouldn't exist.
Sad fact of the matter is even if those who wanted to escape civilization did and went out to live in a more simple way, what would happen?
The one little band of people would meet another little band of people with different skills who could contribute to the group and make good company. Then they would meet more and more
until they essentially built the very thing they were trying to escape.
As was said in the beginning
We are after all social creatures
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:52:55 PM
Sad fact of the matter is even if those who wanted to escape civilization did and went out to live in a more simple way, what would happen?
1) mortality rates would shoot through the roofs
2) Those who stick to their hippie ideals will die out or begin massacring each other when they start starving and realize the real world aint rainbows and sunshine (NO order can be maintained without food)
3) if there is anyone left those who get the river beds and furtile land will have to be prepared to defend it from those in the denser woods
4) it would take thousands of years before the mortality rate drops and levels and that will only occure by the river beds where people can actually create some food
5) those by the river beds will outgrow the river beds and in the long run overrun those in the woods, pushing them back and causing them to be irrelevent
6) when two societies meet they will either come to agreement (IE borders) or start killing each other
oh plus if any time someone who didn't suscribe to your hippie nightmare wanted something like a good fishing hole or some farmland
they would just roll in the tanks and take it
"but I was fishing there?"
"Now you have the memories Moonbeam. But don't worry when influzensa season rolls along they wont last long."
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:05:43 PM
Best case senerio is each group will benefit from the other
(cleaner air in the cities from the work done in the wilderness)
how exactly do people in the city benefit from hippies in the wilderness smoking joints naked next to a hot spring playing on their gameboys?
srsly, tell me how, because if i can get someone to pay me for doing that, i don't mind playing tetris for a couple of hours a day
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 02, 2008, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:52:55 PM
Sad fact of the matter is even if those who wanted to escape civilization did and went out to live in a more simple way, what would happen?
2) Those who stick to their hippie ideals will die out or begin massacring each other when they start starving and realize the real world aint rainbows and sunshine (NO order can be maintained without food)
Are you one of those people who think food comes from the supermarket? Even a child can maintain a garden, and there are many edible plants growing wild that most people don't know about because they are sadly uninformed.
how exactly do people in the city benefit from hippies in the wilderness smoking joints naked next to a hot spring playing on their gameboys?
srsly, tell me how, because if i can get someone to pay me for doing that, i don't mind playing tetris for a couple of hours a day
[/quote]
Well, to start off with, did you know that one acre of marijuana puts off as much oxygen as ten acres of rain forest? No joke. I think I'd start there, personally. Hemp is one of the stronges natural fibers, though not readily available to the masses. Hemp seeds have all but one of the essential amino acids that the human body needs. And, oh yeah, people are so hard pressed to find alternate fuels so as not to be raped at the gas pump, well, there could be an anwer to that in the equasion as well.
And our happy little city folk keep using up all our natural resources, who do you expect is going to go get their hands dirty trying to replenish the Earth where it's been raped again and again? The people who think their dinner naturally appears in a baggy in the frozen food section of the supermarket?
And it's already been seen time and again: the ignorant pump their bodies full of chemicals and processed foods until, lo and behold, they end up with cancer or something equally as devistating. Half go get "professional medical help" and most die in the hospital at the hands of an idiot MD with a God complex, or the others look into alternative healing: acupuncture, herbal remedies, medical intuitives, and a vast variety of other things and often find the root problem and heal themselves.
Who do you think studies these things? The vast consumer society just waiting for the latest i-pod to come out, or those "hippies" in the forest trying to reconnect with the earth from whence we came?
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 02, 2008, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:52:55 PM
Sad fact of the matter is even if those who wanted to escape civilization did and went out to live in a more simple way, what would happen?
2) Those who stick to their hippie ideals will die out or begin massacring each other when they start starving and realize the real world aint rainbows and sunshine (NO order can be maintained without food)
Are you one of those people who think food comes from the supermarket? Even a child can maintain a garden, and there are many edible plants growing wild that most people don't know about because they are sadly uninformed.
It know that. I have a small garden, and like to grow a few things. But all of those growing things require an assload of water, compared to the nature amount of rainfall we get (which is close to about none). All that water that provides a "natural and healthy" food source comes from the exploitation and damming of a lake a few miles to the north, probably at the expense of many species and wildlife.
There are just some areas that are not capable of sustaining agriculture without massive interference.
You say that people could live off of wild plants, but there would never be enough to sustain a large population without some people starving, or immediately consuming it.
And people would still end up killing each other. Even American Indian tribes, who practiced sustainable agriculture and foraging waged war with each other on a regular basis. They were still human, after all.
Humanity will always be at constant struggle with its natural environment, simply because the current resources will never be able to meet its needs for what it considers a happy, fulfilling lifestyle.
Quote from: Nasturtiums on July 02, 2008, 07:28:14 PM
You say that people could live off of wild plants, but there would be be never enough to sustain a large population without some people starving
And therein is the most important objection.
Quote from: Nasturtiums on July 02, 2008, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 02, 2008, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:52:55 PM
Sad fact of the matter is even if those who wanted to escape civilization did and went out to live in a more simple way, what would happen?
2) Those who stick to their hippie ideals will die out or begin massacring each other when they start starving and realize the real world aint rainbows and sunshine (NO order can be maintained without food)
Are you one of those people who think food comes from the supermarket? Even a child can maintain a garden, and there are many edible plants growing wild that most people don't know about because they are sadly uninformed.
It know that. I have a small garden, and like to grow a few things. But all of those growing things require an assload of water, compared to the nature amount of rainfall we get (which is close to about none). All that water that provides a "natural and healthy" food source comes from the exploitation and damming of a lake a few miles to the north, probably at the expense of many species and wildlife.
There are just some areas that are not capable of sustaining agriculture without massive interference.
You say that people could live off of wild plants, but there would be be never enough to sustain a large population without some people starving, or immediately consuming it.
And people would still end up killing each other. Even American Indian tribes, who practiced sustainable agriculture and foraging waged war with each other on a regular basis. They were still human, after all.
Humanity will always be at constant struggle with its natural environment, simply because the current resources will never be able to meet its needs for what it considers a happy, fulfilling lifestyle.
You make an incredible point. I respect that.
All that said, I would like to make a point that I definitely do advocate more environmentally sustainable methods in our way of life. I do agree with you that us city dwellers are estranged from our food sources, and that raping our planet is extremely careless and self-destructive. If it were possible to find a way to manage our resources so that none of this would happen, it would be a wonderful achievement.
QuoteWell, to start off with, did you know that one acre of marijuana puts off as much oxygen as ten acres of rain forest?
:spittake:
I don't have the time do to any arguing right now, so I'll just say that I like the way this thread is going. Good job.
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 02, 2008, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 05:52:55 PM
Sad fact of the matter is even if those who wanted to escape civilization did and went out to live in a more simple way, what would happen?
2) Those who stick to their hippie ideals will die out or begin massacring each other when they start starving and realize the real world aint rainbows and sunshine (NO order can be maintained without food)
Are you one of those people who think food comes from the supermarket? Even a child can maintain a garden, and there are many edible plants growing wild that most people don't know about because they are sadly uninformed.
no... actually your the idiot that thinks he can become the Green Giant and grow enough produce to substain a population base... god forbid there is a drought or famine, or maybe youll raise livestock (which requires quite a lot of room without the use of evil city technology/ and of course the people not subscriping to your stoned out hippie fantasy are just going give up all the space you require, or fuck that the people living next to you, and by the way there aren't too many animals that can be domesticad for that purpose so if you live in the place your totaly fucked)
HEY AND WE CAN CURE PLAGUES AND OUTBREAKS WITH ALL NATURAL REMEDiES AND GOOD VIBES.. MAN
AND EVERYONE WILL GET ALONG... ITLL BE LIKE FLOWERS RIDING A RAINBOW
/
:hippie:
I already pointed out that stupidity
and Ill pose the same solution that I did to that fucker Bhode
you wanna fucking live out in the fucking bush look me up when when i get back to Northern Ontario and Ill take you out there and leave you to your devices Grizzley Adams
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on July 03, 2008, 12:08:57 AM
QuoteWell, to start off with, did you know that one acre of marijuana puts off as much oxygen as ten acres of rain forest?
:spittake:
I don't have the time do to any arguing right now, so I'll just say that I like the way this thread is going. Good job.
Yeah. I support the legalization of hemp, but I'm calling bullshit on this as well.
Plants don't just make oxygen; they decompose carbon dioxide and water into carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. The carbon and hydrogen (and some of the oxygen) go towards biomass; the rest of the oxygen is respired. So in order to give off 10x as much oxygen, your marijuana field is going to have to absorb 10x as much water and CO2 as the acre of rainforest. Leaving aside the irrigation issues of supplying all that water, it also means that your marijuana field is producing ten times as much biomass as the rainforest. Really? Maybe an acre of kudzu or bamboo could do that. Maybe.
And as far as growing food - maybe you haven't noticed in your (I'm assuming) suburban lifestyle, but there's a food shortage right now. Most of it is in distribution (too much food going to the rich, not enough to the poor) but even with modern agriculture we're barely making it.
Also antibiotics. I would have died at age 4 without modern medicine, assuming I was even born (C-section.)
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on July 03, 2008, 02:06:50 AM
Also antibiotics. I would have died at age 4 without modern medicine, assuming I was even born (C-section.)
THATS JUST WHAT "THE MAN" WANTS YOU TO THINK....
IT'LL BE A HIPPIE WONDERLAND I TELL YA
My car is a hybrid:
it runs on gasoline and unicorn farts.
My six-inch-long mutant appendix would have ruptured and killed me if it weren't for modern medicine.
I think everyone of us has a story like that, or someone we care about... or someone who didn't starve, or didn't get hacked to pieces cause we live in countries which has enough food to maintain a kind of orderly existance
but you gotta remember downspiral is going to save the enviroment by growing hemp and solve all the other problems of trying to keep a society alive in the wilderness, away from modern technology by... ahhh... growing hemp I think...
ITLL BE A HIPPIE WONDERLAND I TELL YA
the "Back to Basics" crowd already exists. They are called the Amish, and they are all assholes.
Quote from: vexati0n on July 03, 2008, 05:13:04 AM
the "Back to Basics" crowd already exists. They are called Anarcho-primitivists, and they are all Rosseau-reading fucktards.
Fixed.
Cain,
thinks you should think before saying things that will bring down the wrath of Amish hackers on this forum.
OK, why is my troll detector maxed out here?
Are you one of those people who think food comes from the supermarket? Even a child can maintain a garden, and there are many edible plants growing wild that most people don't know about because they are sadly uninformed.
[/quote]
no... actually your the idiot that thinks he can become the Green Giant and grow enough produce to substain a population base... god forbid there is a drought or famine, or maybe youll raise livestock (which requires quite a lot of room without the use of evil city technology/ and of course the people not subscriping to your stoned out hippie fantasy are just going give up all the space you require, or fuck that the people living next to you, and by the way there aren't too many animals that can be domesticad for that purpose so if you live in the place your totaly fucked)
HEY AND WE CAN CURE PLAGUES AND OUTBREAKS WITH ALL NATURAL REMEDiES AND GOOD VIBES.. MAN
AND EVERYONE WILL GET ALONG... ITLL BE LIKE FLOWERS RIDING A RAINBOW
/
[/quote]
What makes you think that that I would grow food to help maintain a whole population base. Fact of the matter is I wish most people would croak where they sit. And for sure for sure, if you came stumbling upon my camp begging for food or water, I'd tell you
"LEARN TO SURVIVE ON YOUR OWN!"
and go back to smoking my joint in peace (and looovvee maaan...) lol
For people claiming to want to or to have already broken out of the box
there are *some of you*
who seem to like to argue for he sake of arguement.
While I agree that there is some wisdom to be found in madness,
I find absolutely no wisdom in your rediculous arguements.
Quote from: downspiral on July 03, 2008, 02:51:11 PM
What makes you think that that I would grow food to help maintain a whole population base. Fact of the matter is I wish most people would croak where they sit. And for sure for sure, if you came stumbling upon my camp begging for food or water, I'd tell you
"LEARN TO SURVIVE ON YOUR OWN!"
and go back to smoking my joint in peace (and looovvee maaan...) lol
Bhode?
:lulz:
srlsy you want to leave the "evil" world
get off the fucking internet
Quote from: downspiral on July 03, 2008, 02:51:11 PM
For people claiming to want to or to have already broken out of the box
there are *some of you*
who seem to like to argue for he sake of arguement.
While I agree that there is some wisdom to be found in madness,
I find absolutely no wisdom in your rediculous arguements.
never claimed that
welcome to PD.com
Quote from: downspiral on July 03, 2008, 02:51:11 PM
and go back to smoking my joint in peace (and looovvee maaan...) lol
yah cause stitting around smoking a joint is going to solve all your problems you fucking tard
I would actually like to see you try to suvive on you own
:lulz:
oh a forgot your combination of Grizzley Adams, the Green Giant and Nobel Prize winner in Medicine
Quote from: downspiral on July 03, 2008, 02:51:11 PM
Fact of the matter is I wish most people would croak where they sit.
A show of hands... who knew it was heading in this direction from the start?
"Wouldn't it be nice if we all returned to nature? ...Well, not
all of us. We should liquidate the majority of the human race. Let's start with the Jews!"
Quote from: LMNO on July 03, 2008, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 03, 2008, 02:51:11 PM
Fact of the matter is I wish most people would croak where they sit.
A show of hands... who knew it was heading in this direction from the start?
I had hopes it wasn't, but I had this sinking feeling pretty quickly on. I should have put money on it, would've made a packet.
Quote from: downspiral on July 02, 2008, 07:09:44 PMQuote from: 000how exactly do people in the city benefit from hippies in the wilderness smoking joints naked next to a hot spring playing on their gameboys?
srsly, tell me how, because if i can get someone to pay me for doing that, i don't mind playing tetris for a couple of hours a day
Well, to start off with, did you know that one acre of marijuana puts off as much oxygen as ten acres of rain forest? No joke. I think I'd start there, personally. Hemp is one of the stronges natural fibers, though not readily available to the masses. Hemp seeds have all but one of the essential amino acids that the human body needs. And, oh yeah, people are so hard pressed to find alternate fuels so as not to be raped at the gas pump, well, there could be an anwer to that in the equasion as well.
who do you think studies this stuff?
would it be scientists, that work in big concrete buildings called "universities" and "hi tech research facilities", or hippies that sit naked on the edge of a natural hot pool playing their gameboy smoking a joint?
QuoteAnd our happy little city folk keep using up all our natural resources, who do you expect is going to go get their hands dirty trying to replenish the Earth where it's been raped again and again? The people who think their dinner naturally appears in a baggy in the frozen food section of the supermarket?
well, not the guy in the hot pool.
but probably some of my friends that study environmental sciences, technical planology, industrial chemistry and medicine. fortunately they are not too busy trying to survive in the forest or smoking their brains out playing video games, and they, you know, actually
get shit done and research stuff.
Quoteor the others look into alternative healing: acupuncture, herbal remedies, medical intuitives, and a vast variety of other things and often find the root problem and heal themselves.
Who do you think studies these things? The vast consumer society just waiting for the latest i-pod to come out, or those "hippies" in the forest trying to reconnect with the earth from whence we came?
acupuncture is being researched by the medical sciences faculty of my university. not by pot-smoking hippies living in the forest, playing videogames.
All disease can be cured by drinking the blood of Kevin Trudeau
Quote from: LMNO on July 03, 2008, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: downspiral on July 03, 2008, 02:51:11 PM
Fact of the matter is I wish most people would croak where they sit.
A show of hands... who knew it was heading in this direction from the start?
"Wouldn't it be nice if we all returned to nature? ...Well, not all of us. We should liquidate the majority of the human race. Let's start with the Jews!"
i was kinda wondering about this when i wrote my reply yeah ..
self-sustaining is a nice idea, it could be pretty utopian (if you'd actually be, you know, smart about it), but the problem is we've currently got close to 7 billion people living on this rock, and the self-sustainingness isnt going to work while there's more than 1 billion crawling around here.
if we want 7 billion (or up to 10bln, in fact) to survive with any amount of comfort on this planet, we're also going to need to be damn smart about it (this is a problem, especially given there's 7 bln idiots around spoiling it), but we're going to need a LOT of technology and infrastructure.
going back to the "old ways", we'd also need to go back to the old population-sizes ..
any ideas?
does it involve saving the dolphins?
Wasn't Bhode the guy who inspired the 50-post rule in the first place? Cause this is a serious case of history repeating.
PS :lulz:
Bhode was the dude that inspired "SAVE THE DOLPHINS TIEM" or some such shit.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=188249569&albumID=0&imageID=19842747
I don't know how to embed images in here, so I can only supply this URL. However, this picture is a decent vision of what the future could be... and, perhaps, how it should be.
Nature and Technology, living as one.
second row you will see a bounch of bottons starting with a red/black circle
second botton with be a little painting... click that
you will get this but no code:
[img] [/img]
put your link between the first img and the /img
[img] link [/img]
What we're all calling the primitive life would only be horrible by our own modern standards. The things that's in our way, as it always has been and probably always will be, is our total excess of awareness.
I mean, take a baby. Kid's happy enough doing pretty much anything, because he hasn't accumulated what you'd call, I don't know, 'higher experiences.' Loves eating, sleeping, dicking around. But of course as it gets older, it starts to see more, encounter more. It understands the other kids have things that it doesn't. It starts to get a sense of time, the power of mental reflection. Before you know it, it's an adult wishing it could be stupid again.
So suppose you didn't flee to the woods, but were part of the first generation born there. If the hand was played right, and you never even knew about the cities and the bigwigs and the capitalist pigs (man), how unhappy would you really be? If licking bugs off of a tree trunk was the apogee, in your realm of experiences, then it'll never take more than that to bring you fulfillment.
You know what, this whole argument's totally bunk, on account of that annoying ambitious spark inside of all humans, that willingness to live beyond current means. Fucking HU-MANS, man
People are social animals? hmmm & evolution has saddled us with some pretty big brains. Evolution as a tool? The brain a tool? hmmm. These things make sense to me. Not sure about the part about returning to the forest tho?
I'm just visiting here. I've gotten pretty comfortable with uncertainty. I think I Love uncertainty. It's a useful tool. Every day I see new things. & yeah well some of the things might be the same things I saw yesterday but it looks different to me today. In the light of a new day. I also like to think about Time. As a tool.
Sometimes, I notice what I like to call trends. Things that seem to show up everyday, usually at the end of the day. Some of those trends:
This place is pretty fucked up.
Is anyone alive in here?
How can I entertain myself?
What kind of experiments can I try?
Thinking about these things keeps me busy, busy, busy! (Used to practice Bokononism & sometimes still do)
Another thing I observe, usually on a daily basis, is that I happen to like things of Nature. Seeing Beauty there. Looking at things closely. Being out in it when the Weather is extreme. The Ocean. That kind of thing.
Not a huge fan of returning to the forest tho. I like urban life. I've also observed (living in US) that many of the worst sewers of stinking stagnation are in the places most isolated from urbanity (not sure if I'm using the right word here). I mean, lookit the Amish enclaves? & what about those hellholes of Xian fundamentalism? That kind of thinking doesn't seem to lend itself to cities.
I've passed through places like these (stinking sewers of stagnation in the US) & I don't see anything coming from there! The 1 thing I've noticed is that Peoples want OUT of those kind of places. bbbrrr shudder bbbrrr These kinds of places seem to be self-perpetuating not self-sustaining.
I haven't spent all that much time in Internet communities either. Mostly passing through. I have noticed though, if you are inclined to do so, you can create mind-numbing communities on the Internet as well. It might be easier to escape from those types of thought ghettos than from the geographical ones. I really hope so.
Anyway, hope I haven't solipsised too much here or gotten off into my own tangential way of thinking as to distract from what's been said here. I'm new here & I really like what I've seen so far. I especially appreciated the Black Iron Prison. Thanks. Respect. :)
Honey
interesting thoughts, Honey. Thanks!
(i'd come up with a proper reply but my brain's a bit preoccupied with other things)
out of curiosity
does anyone know if there is a genesis to this idea that it is in fact the development of society that is the cause of evil and if we retreated back to living like primates in the wilderness everything would return back to its natural happy state
i remember a few hippies peddling it back in high school and a few on the interweb since then...
did it just kind of morph into existance? or was there a root?
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 04, 2008, 03:33:45 PM
out of curiosity
does anyone know if there is a genesis to this idea that it is in fact the development of society that is the cause of evil and if we retreated back to living like primates in the wilderness everything would return back to its natural happy state
i remember a few hippies peddling it back in high school and a few on the interweb since then...
did it just kind of morph into existance? or was there a root?
That would be the Garden of Eden creation myth. Blame the j00s!
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on July 04, 2008, 03:33:45 PM
out of curiosity
does anyone know if there is a genesis to this idea that it is in fact the development of society that is the cause of evil and if we retreated back to living like primates in the wilderness everything would return back to its natural happy state
i remember a few hippies peddling it back in high school and a few on the interweb since then...
did it just kind of morph into existance? or was there a root?
The philosopher Rousseau. His ideas concerning the "noble savage" were hugely influential during the 60s, yet have almost entirely turned out to be wrong, because people used empirical evidence to go check how hunter-gatherer societies live, or did detailed excavation of early agricultural societies and so on and so forth. And it turned out they didn't live in natural harmony, weren't naturally peacefully inclined and their societies were hardly any less fucked up than our own.
Then again, the main contrast to his position, Hobbes, also turned out to be wrong as well, though he was far more right than Rousseau.
Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.
Edit: that was Hobbes. Sounds like a spot-on description of people in a state of chaos to me.
Quote from: Nasturtiums on July 02, 2008, 08:21:38 AM
Also, the average life expectancy of a member of a Neolithic culture was 20 years old,
:cn:
Last I checked (a few years ago whn I was studying this at Uni) hunter/gatherer societies had much better life expectancy than pre industrial agrarian societies. Famine and disease and malnutrition are more common by far for farmers than hunters. Its not until the indistrial revolution, when we start to have medicine and a varied diet, that QOL was any good.
:cn: on that too I know, and of course different regions are harder to live in, and may have more diseases, but the main point of agrarian societies suck even more still stands.
I don't have any citations on hand but the number is actually more like 30 years. On the other hand, a mobile lifestyle drastically reduces both fertility and infant viability. Agrarian lifestyle is pretty much inevitably ascendant because a steady diet (if relatively unhealthy) and a sedentary lifestyle create a relative population explosion. In terms of diseases, either lifestyle is prone to different but equally debilitating problems (ie tooth wear vs cavities), though people living in towns are more likely to get infected with something nasty. Agrarian societies are much more hierarchical because not everyone has to spend all their time looking for/preparing food, and for the people on the top of the pile the quality of life was probably pretty good.
I could go more in depth but I am going to go party instead.
life expectancy
mesolithic age - 30
neolithic - 20 (went down)
copper age - 35 (start steady increase)
bronze age - over 35
if i remember middle ages was even higher then it dropped slightly during the industrial revolution then skyrocketed modern era
i can link you up with an article in an hour or two once im done what im doing now
in otherwords it was the beginning of the agricultural rev. that it went down but it shot back up quickly and kept rising
hunter/gatherers even to the modern age have never substancialy increased life expectancy without outside aid
Quote from: Requiem on July 05, 2008, 02:21:20 AM
Famine and disease and malnutrition are more common by far for farmers than hunters.
in regards to disease...
only for a brief period
most diseases orginate from domestic animals
it took a while for people to build up a resistance to it
but once they did the life expectancy went back up
thats why populations that had very little domestic livestock (ie the Aztecs) got desimated from contact with diseases (carried by people who had restances but still were carriers then by the livestock they brought with them) they had no resistance to
Um, apparently I mixed up neolithic and mesolithic (or else remember right, but am using a different map, anthropology sucks for consistency), neolithic is early agrarian, which is where the peak shitty LE was, that'll teach me to shoot my mouth off.
One other thing, its not the steady diet that creates the population explosion, as much as it is the form the diet takes, namely cereal grains and a higher percentage of fat/muscle meats instead of internal organs, which both produce more body fat, and allowing children to be weaned sooner (breastfeeding and lack of body fat interfere with ovulation).
yes, probably a little of both as well as the fact that when people got settled, didn't have to move from area to area and developed homes, even had some free time, well to put it bluntly had more oppertunity to fuck
anyways
this isnt the exact one i was looking for ..in fact its a work paperr I had found and bookmarked
but had a lot to do with what we were talking about
I haven't read it in a few years
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Economics/Papers/2004/2004-14_paper.pdf
its long and kind of dry so heres the goods
Quotesocial, economic and environmental changes that were associated with the transition from hunter-gatherer tribes to sedentary agricultural communities and ultimately to urban societies affected the nature of the environmental hazards confronted by the human population, triggering an evolutionary process that had a significant impact on the timenpath of human longevity. The increase in the extrinsic morality risk (i.e., risk associated with environment factors) associated with the Agricultural Revolution triggered an evolutionary process, further enhanced by the process of urbanization, that gradually altered the distribution of genes in the human population that are associated with the intrinsic mortality risk (i.e., physiological and biochemistry decay over lifetime). Individuals that were characterized by a higher genetic pre-disposition towards somatic investment, repairs, and maintenance (e.g., enhanced immune system, DNA repairs, accurate gene regulation, tumor suppression, and antioxidants) gained the evolutionary advantage during this transition, and their representation in the population increased over time. Despite the increase in the extrinsic mortality risk that brought about a temporary decline in life expectancy, longevity eventually increased beyond the peak that existed in the hunter-gatherer society, due to the changes in the distribution of genes in the human population. Moreover, the biological upper bound of longevity increased, generating the
biological infrastructure for the recent prolongation of life expectancy that was brought about by the decline in the extrinsic mortality risk due to improvements in medical technology.
Do Native Americans throw some sort of a monkey wrench into those statistics, though? Pre-Columbian indians were supposed to have had a long life expectancy, especially in Coastal areas. It declined drastically when they were forced onto reservations, from a life expectancy of well over 80 to one of only 40 to 50.
Quote from: Nigel on July 05, 2008, 08:13:25 AM
Do Native Americans throw some sort of a monkey wrench into those statistics, though? Pre-Columbian indians were supposed to have had a long life expectancy, especially in Coastal areas. It declined drastically when they were forced onto reservations, from a life expectancy of well over 80 to one of only 40 to 50.
America is a massive piece of geography. Some places with a steady range of food supply might sustain a long life expectancy but I can't imagine every tribe in the entire country would consistantly have that kind of lifespan.
No, of course not, but as I have read at least, the populations in most areas were pretty stable and, short of drought, generally did pretty well.
It's still a huge geographical area, and life expectancy still varies somewhat from population to population.
Quote from: Nigel on July 05, 2008, 08:13:25 AM
Do Native Americans throw some sort of a monkey wrench into those statistics, though? Pre-Columbian indians were supposed to have had a long life expectancy, especially in Coastal areas. It declined drastically when they were forced onto reservations, from a life expectancy of well over 80 to one of only 40 to 50.
not really
as badger said North America is geographical mess
i remember reading a few times (too early to remember all the citations) but the America's run North to South rather then East to West like oversees, meaning the climate and conditions are drastically different, which in one way limits the transfer of trade, culture and ideas, and as well produces drastically different situations that someone finds themself under
also im usually a little suspicious when people talk of native culture... I really enjoy native culture probably more so then most others, but there is a segament of the population in North America (natives and whites alike) that look upon Native culture like it was hippie paradise, all peaceful, smoking their peacepipes and frolicing through fields of flowers... of course archeoligical evidence states otherwise. Some of it is wishful thinking, some of it is cause for years archeoligy never took native history as serious as Western European or even Asian - other then maybe the Aztecs or Mayan, but they built HUGE fucking pyramids so you can't really ignore them
Keep in mind that infant mortality rates sucked, LE of 30 might well become 60 for anybody who survived to adulthood.
Quote from: Honey on July 04, 2008, 03:17:03 PM
People are social animals? hmmm & evolution has saddled us with some pretty big brains. Evolution as a tool? The brain a tool? hmmm. These things make sense to me. Not sure about the part about returning to the forest tho?
I'm just visiting here. I've gotten pretty comfortable with uncertainty. I think I Love uncertainty. It's a useful tool. Every day I see new things. & yeah well some of the things might be the same things I saw yesterday but it looks different to me today. In the light of a new day. I also like to think about Time. As a tool.
Sometimes, I notice what I like to call trends. Things that seem to show up everyday, usually at the end of the day. Some of those trends:
This place is pretty fucked up.
Is anyone alive in here?
How can I entertain myself?
What kind of experiments can I try?
Thinking about these things keeps me busy, busy, busy! (Used to practice Bokononism & sometimes still do)
Another thing I observe, usually on a daily basis, is that I happen to like things of Nature. Seeing Beauty there. Looking at things closely. Being out in it when the Weather is extreme. The Ocean. That kind of thing.
Not a huge fan of returning to the forest tho. I like urban life. I've also observed (living in US) that many of the worst sewers of stinking stagnation are in the places most isolated from urbanity (not sure if I'm using the right word here). I mean, lookit the Amish enclaves? & what about those hellholes of Xian fundamentalism? That kind of thinking doesn't seem to lend itself to cities.
I've passed through places like these (stinking sewers of stagnation in the US) & I don't see anything coming from there! The 1 thing I've noticed is that Peoples want OUT of those kind of places. bbbrrr shudder bbbrrr These kinds of places seem to be self-perpetuating not self-sustaining.
I haven't spent all that much time in Internet communities either. Mostly passing through. I have noticed though, if you are inclined to do so, you can create mind-numbing communities on the Internet as well. It might be easier to escape from those types of thought ghettos than from the geographical ones. I really hope so.
Anyway, hope I haven't solipsised too much here or gotten off into my own tangential way of thinking as to distract from what's been said here. I'm new here & I really like what I've seen so far. I especially appreciated the Black Iron Prison. Thanks. Respect. :)
Honey
Could we
PLEASE get more n00bs who post like this?
Pretty please?
Quote from: LMNO on July 07, 2008, 04:15:32 PM
Could we PLEASE get more n00bs who post like this?
Pretty please?
The quota on worthy n00bs is very tight. Make a sacrifice to the Internet Gods and nothing will happen, but you can fool yourself into thinking that it helped.
maybe your just not sacrificing to the *right* internet gods