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Doc's Thread

Started by LHX, February 16, 2007, 02:45:31 AM

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Doc Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
Ok:¬† ,Äúthe Map is not the Territory.,Äù¬† There is a line of thinking stating that the sensations we perceive are somewhat different than what caused those sensations in the first place.¬† That is to say, through biological and psychological limitations, the human is unable to see the Universe for what it ,Äúreally,Äù is.¬† Granted, when someone is trying to hit you with a barstool, what you perceive ends up working really well.¬†

Can't see the universe for what it really is, or WON'T?

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
To me, things like kaballah, Christian mysticism, Sufis, Taoism, and the like don,Äôt hold ,Äúcosmic truths,Äù or ,Äúrevelations.,Äù¬† I look at them as pictures of someone else,Äôs grid/filter/map/prison cell.¬†

Now that makes perfect sense.  Thanks.
GET IT OFF ME!

Doc Howl

Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 01:47:36 PM
We need Pedro back here.  More thoughts later, once coffee 2 kicks in and I send a few emails (another job in the line)...

Pedro won't come back.  He was here at the house last night while I was posting.  He got out of the joint a while back and tried to post, and he'd been banned.  He said for you all to fuck yourselves. 
GET IT OFF ME!

Cain

That was the old Mgt.  She still owns the site, but doesn't run it anymore. There was a coup, and since I'm the only admin around right now, I'd like to see him posting again.

LMNO

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
Ok:¬† ,Äúthe Map is not the Territory.,Äù¬† There is a line of thinking stating that the sensations we perceive are somewhat different than what caused those sensations in the first place.¬† That is to say, through biological and psychological limitations, the human is unable to see the Universe for what it ,Äúreally,Äù is.¬† Granted, when someone is trying to hit you with a barstool, what you perceive ends up working really well.¬†

Can't see the universe for what it really is, or WON'T?

Actually, both.  Biologically, we are only able to see a slim spectrum of light, only hear a slim spectrum of sound, only feel a specific range of pressure, etc.  We can use machines to tell us of these other lights/sounds/etc, but what they tell us are "recorded events", and not the actual sound/light wave.

Psychologically, concious or subconcious, we seem to make choices about what the sensations we pay attention to.  While we can't change our biology (yet), we can try to change our psychology.

Doc Howl

Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:03:34 PM
That was the old Mgt.  She still owns the site, but doesn't run it anymore. There was a coup, and since I'm the only admin around right now, I'd like to see him posting again.

Let me ask him tonight when he comes over.
GET IT OFF ME!

Doc Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:04:13 PM


Actually, both.  Biologically, we are only able to see a slim spectrum of light, only hear a slim spectrum of sound, only feel a specific range of pressure, etc.  We can use machines to tell us of these other lights/sounds/etc, but what they tell us are "recorded events", and not the actual sound/light wave.

Psychologically, concious or subconcious, we seem to make choices about what the sensations we pay attention to.  While we can't change our biology (yet), we can try to change our psychology.

Well, if I can't see it (infared, etc), then I simply don't worry about it (on the other hand, I pretty much ignore everything I can't drink, fuck, or stomp).

Psychologically is a different story.  If the universe walks up and hands you data, it probably isn't doing it in a polite manner.  Pretending the data is something  other than it really is seems to be both stupid and a poor survival trait.  For example, let's say a big fucking rock lands on a major city.  Astronomers then start trying to tell us (as they have been for years) that this sort of thing is bound to happen all the time, due to a junkyard solar system and the basic rules of orbital mechanics.  The rest of the monkeys, though, will line up to hear Jerry Falwell explain that the meteor was God's will, revenge for not marginalizing women and gays.

Guess how many people will listen to the astronomers?  You see any research being done on how to divert asteriods?  Yeah, me neither.

And lotsa luck changing the psychology of more than a bare handful of monkeys.  They'll kill you before they allow that.
GET IT OFF ME!

LMNO

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:12:38 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:04:13 PM


Actually, both.  Biologically, we are only able to see a slim spectrum of light, only hear a slim spectrum of sound, only feel a specific range of pressure, etc.  We can use machines to tell us of these other lights/sounds/etc, but what they tell us are "recorded events", and not the actual sound/light wave.

Psychologically, concious or subconcious, we seem to make choices about what the sensations we pay attention to.  While we can't change our biology (yet), we can try to change our psychology.

Well, if I can't see it (infared, etc), then I simply don't worry about it (on the other hand, I pretty much ignore everything I can't drink, fuck, or stomp).

Psychologically is a different story.  If the universe walks up and hands you data, it probably isn't doing it in a polite manner.  Pretending the data is something  other than it really is seems to be both stupid and a poor survival trait.  For example, let's say a big fucking rock lands on a major city.  Astronomers then start trying to tell us (as they have been for years) that this sort of thing is bound to happen all the time, due to a junkyard solar system and the basic rules of orbital mechanics.  The rest of the monkeys, though, will line up to hear Jerry Falwell explain that the meteor was God's will, revenge for not marginalizing women and gays.

Guess how many people will listen to the astronomers?  You see any research being done on how to divert asteriods?  Yeah, me neither.

And lotsa luck changing the psychology of more than a bare handful of monkeys.  They'll kill you before they allow that.


I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that.  I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure what just happened, or why.

Psychologically, I guess my point is that when the Universe hands you data, sometimes it's not a conscious decision on how to interpret it, it's an ingrained one.  That's sort of the point, that some people have never even thought that their filter/map might be one of many possible, and some more useful than others. 

However, while science seems to be the best way to describe what the stuff in the Universe is doing, it's not really that helpful when writing a poem, or listening to music.  Sure, if you want to describe the motion of the pen, or the firing of neurons, or the acoustic sound waves, it's perfect.  But the act of creating, and the act of enjoying a good song are not really condusive to scientific language.

Doc Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that.  I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure what just happened, or why.

I can't see gravity.  I can observe it, though, and it works every single time.

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
Psychologically, I guess my point is that when the Universe hands you data, sometimes it's not a conscious decision on how to interpret it, it's an ingrained one. 

No excuse.  We're (nominally) intelligent beings, not cows.  "I wasn't thinking" isn't an excuse, it's an indictment.


Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
That's sort of the point, that some people have never even thought that their filter/map might be one of many possible, and some more useful than others. 

This is because we have crowded people to the point where they don't HAVE to use their brains.

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
However, while science seems to be the best way to describe what the stuff in the Universe is doing, it's not really that helpful when writing a poem, or listening to music.  Sure, if you want to describe the motion of the pen, or the firing of neurons, or the acoustic sound waves, it's perfect.  But the act of creating, and the act of enjoying a good song are not really condusive to scientific language.

I don't see why science can't be poetic or artistic.  The structure of a rose is even prettier than the surface appearance.

But science was never intended to be an art form.  Given this, it is stupid to decide that you don't "prefer" the scientific view of the world because it doesn't appeal to your aesthetic sense.  Nor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?
GET IT OFF ME!

Cain

QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time.  I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all.  But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.

LHX

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?

Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM

you are right from one angle tho

i cant hold something in my hand and say 'this is yin/yang'


i aint gonna hold fast to things i cant readily demonstrate

LAIL

astounded


doc is looking for drama where there is none
neat hell

Doc Howl

Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time.  I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all.  But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.

This is why I have instructed Efrim and Pedro to kick me in the balls or at least cut off my liquor when I start talking like that.

Postmodernism is fucking stupid.  At least dadaism was funny.
GET IT OFF ME!

Cain

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time.  I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all.  But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.

This is why I have instructed Efrim and Pedro to kick me in the balls or at least cut off my liquor when I start talking like that.

Postmodernism is fucking stupid.  At least dadaism was funny.

If you haven't read How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World by Francis Wheen, you should.  You'd most certainly like it.

LMNO

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that.  I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure what just happened, or why.

I can't see gravity.  I can observe it, though, and it works every single time.

Agreed.  The point is, what about the things you don't know about yet, and what effects might they be having on you?  That is to say, a person can't assume they know all the things that are happening around them, or what their effects might be,

Quote
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
Psychologically, I guess my point is that when the Universe hands you data, sometimes it's not a conscious decision on how to interpret it, it's an ingrained one. 

No excuse.  We're (nominally) intelligent beings, not cows.  "I wasn't thinking" isn't an excuse, it's an indictment.

Agreed.  However, sometimes you need to point this out to people who have never been exposed to such thoughts.


Quote
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
That's sort of the point, that some people have never even thought that their filter/map might be one of many possible, and some more useful than others. 

This is because we have crowded people to the point where they don't HAVE to use their brains.

I'm not sure I follow you.  I'd say that people weren't using their brains a long time before crowding was an issue.

Quote
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
However, while science seems to be the best way to describe what the stuff in the Universe is doing, it's not really that helpful when writing a poem, or listening to music.  Sure, if you want to describe the motion of the pen, or the firing of neurons, or the acoustic sound waves, it's perfect.  But the act of creating, and the act of enjoying a good song are not really condusive to scientific language.

I don't see why science can't be poetic or artistic.  The structure of a rose is even prettier than the surface appearance.

Quite true.  I've been studying a bit about quantum physics, and it's glorious.  But that's not what I said.  I didn't say that science cant be artistic, I said that the appreciation of Art isn't best explained by Science.  

QuoteBut science was never intended to be an art form.  Given this, it is stupid to decide that you don't "prefer" the scientific view of the world because it doesn't appeal to your aesthetic sense. 

Agreed, and I never said otherwise.  I don't see why a person can't see the world scientifically when the situation is best suited for it, and artistically when that map would be better.

QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

It depends on the setting, I suppose.  A "Valid Theory" of what?  A valid theory of how some people give meaning to their lives in the universe, and their place in it?  I'd say that if you wanted to look for personal meaning in this universe, you could do worse than Taoism.  You seem not to care about personal meaning, but rather practical "here and now" solutions; so, you're more interested in Newtonian Physics and Electromagnetism than Taoism.  I ain't got no beef with that.

QuoteWhen did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?

Now that's just mean spirited.

Thurnez Isa

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on February 16, 2007, 03:28:47 AM

Please also forgive me for being a "hit and run". When someone more or less says I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you, its an event that shakes you up.


Its payment for fixing the computer

srly
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

Doc Howl

Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.

When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?

Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM

you are right from one angle tho

i cant hold something in my hand and say 'this is yin/yang'


i aint gonna hold fast to things i cant readily demonstrate

LAIL

astounded


doc is looking for drama where there is none

Actually, I was talking about your comment "damn yo!  you gonna call yin/yang bullshit too?"  Shortly before that post.

Please try to maintain some level of intellectual honesty.
GET IT OFF ME!