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So essentially, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, he's just another moronic, entitled turd in the bucket.

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The Discordian Menace

Started by tyrannosaurus vex, September 17, 2010, 07:06:37 PM

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tyrannosaurus vex

I've always been a terrible liar. Partly because when I was a kid I fucked up and believed it when I was told lying is bad and people shouldn't do it. I say I fucked up because, apparently, people THRIVE on bullshit and lies. It seems everyone is always plotting about what to say to somebody, which is either a lie, or includes an intentional omission of relevant truth. Everyone is in the business of making themselves look good all the time at any expense, and the only account anybody really has to withdraw from here is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle - that is, banking on the fact that it will be impossible or too much hassle for other people to figure out they're being lied to, especially when all those people have their own webs of lies to maintain.

This kind of behavior, although I've tried (and failed) to engage in it myself, really really annoys my pants off. Honesty isn't just some high-minded morality thing, it's way the fuck simpler than making up lies all the time to make yourself look good. This, however, is lost on most people. They just don't understand that it's easier to be in control of a situation when you're not tied down by all the lines of bullshit you've tossed out there. And I've found that in everyday life, some of the most hilarious events is when somebody reaches the end of that line and their entire web of bullshit falls apart and everybody ends up hating them.

But people do it anyway, whenever they get a chance to. Everything from trying to cover up something they overlooked at work to who they were with Saturday night to fibbing about what is or isn't included in epic legislation that directly affects tens of millions of people. In all of these arenas, it is the Discordian within me that is dying to pull a string and have everything fall apart for these people, just for the lulz. Not because of a moral objection to lying, but because for some ethereal, supernatural reason, seeing people hang themselves on the lies they've told invokes pure laughter in my soul. That is the "chaos" I think Discordianism represents: the complete destruction of harmful bullshit, just so people can breathe a little easier, even if it's only to catch their breath before building their next web of deceit.

I don't know if I really have a direction with this.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Jasper

I'm on the same page, except it doesn't unduly bother me to maintain my web of appearances.

But the people I know who are on the same page as me, I really prefer their company.  I don't have to pretend I'm better than I am around them, which is a great way to stay sane these days.

Juana

Creating a web of lies like that is too much effort. So is pulling that thread, usually. I'm perfectly content letting the web get over heavy and suffocate them by itself in most cases (this isn't to say that'd I'd be adverse to assisting it sometimes).
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

BadBeast

Why tell the truth if you can make up something more interesting and entertaining?
"We need a plane for Bombing, Strafing, Assault and Battery, Interception, Ground Support, and Reconaissance,
NOT JUST A "FAIR WEATHER FIGHTER"!

"I kinda like him. It's like he sees inside my soul" ~ Nigel


Whoever puts their hand on me to govern me, is a usurper, and a tyrant, and I declare them my enemy!

"And when the clouds obscure the moon, and normal service is resumed. It wont. Mean. A. Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpkCJDYxH-4

The Great Pope of OUTSIDE

I'm a story-teller. Coming up with lies and keeping up with them and making them believable and well under the stress level is an easy thing for me.

But fuck it if honesty isn't just so much more interesting. And I don't have to walk on eggshells around the people who are honest with themselves. And even metaphorical eggshells hurt like hell, and I don't like them!

And I really do try to be honest as much as I can. Although I don't mind little lies so much (unless they're pointedly made to hurt someone, which I hate), I SERIOUSLY dislike masks. And people trying to cover up who they really are. And ME trying to cover up who I really am. I can't stand living with a mask over my face all the time.
There are times when I imagine God laughing until it cries, shouting, "I am going to fuck ALL your minds over, and you're going to pay me for it!"

BadBeast

We all wear masks. It's how we manage to survive. Like it or not, it's the Human condition.  Truth and Honesty are two different things. Truth is always relative. What was true for you when you were 5 years old, is no longer true today. But this doesn't mean that what you thought was true when you were 5, was a lie.
Lying is a lifeskill. It gets us through social situations with well used platitudes, and tried and tested niceties. We call these kind of lies ''Manners''. Then there are other kinds of lying. Diplomacy, that's lying. And we lie to children all the time. OK, it's for their own good, or our own peace of mind, but lies nonetheless. And all men lie to Women, the glib compliment, the "Of course I will always love you" the "No, you arse doesn't look fat in those shorts". And women lie to men, in the same ways. "No, of course size doesn't matter" . In fact, most of what we say is tempered with untruths, half truths, and evasive speech. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to tolerate living among such a bunch of lying, self serving bastards that we all are, in anything like a Society. Truth is an illusion. Absolute truth not even that. An Ideal. Honestly. 
"We need a plane for Bombing, Strafing, Assault and Battery, Interception, Ground Support, and Reconaissance,
NOT JUST A "FAIR WEATHER FIGHTER"!

"I kinda like him. It's like he sees inside my soul" ~ Nigel


Whoever puts their hand on me to govern me, is a usurper, and a tyrant, and I declare them my enemy!

"And when the clouds obscure the moon, and normal service is resumed. It wont. Mean. A. Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpkCJDYxH-4

The Great Pope of OUTSIDE

There are times when I imagine God laughing until it cries, shouting, "I am going to fuck ALL your minds over, and you're going to pay me for it!"

Jasper

Quote from: BadBeast on September 18, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
We all wear masks. It's how we manage to survive. Like it or not, it's the Human condition.  Truth and Honesty are two different things. Truth is always relative. What was true for you when you were 5 years old, is no longer true today. But this doesn't mean that what you thought was true when you were 5, was a lie.
Lying is a lifeskill. It gets us through social situations with well used platitudes, and tried and tested niceties. We call these kind of lies ''Manners''. Then there are other kinds of lying. Diplomacy, that's lying. And we lie to children all the time. OK, it's for their own good, or our own peace of mind, but lies nonetheless. And all men lie to Women, the glib compliment, the "Of course I will always love you" the "No, you arse doesn't look fat in those shorts". And women lie to men, in the same ways. "No, of course size doesn't matter" . In fact, most of what we say is tempered with untruths, half truths, and evasive speech. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to tolerate living among such a bunch of lying, self serving bastards that we all are, in anything like a Society. Truth is an illusion. Absolute truth not even that. An Ideal. Honestly. 

You don't see any kind of contradiction there?

That there is no such thing as the truth?

I mean...

How can a statement like that be true, when one of its premises is that truth cannot exist?

MMIX

Quote from: BadBeast on September 18, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
We all wear masks. It's how we manage to survive. Like it or not, it's the Human condition.  Truth and Honesty are two different things. Truth is always relative. What was true for you when you were 5 years old, is no longer true today. But this doesn't mean that what you thought was true when you were 5, was a lie.
Lying is a lifeskill. It gets us through social situations with well used platitudes, and tried and tested niceties. We call these kind of lies ''Manners''. Then there are other kinds of lying. Diplomacy, that's lying. And we lie to children all the time. OK, it's for their own good, or our own peace of mind, but lies nonetheless. And all men lie to Women, the glib compliment, the "Of course I will always love you" the "No, you arse doesn't look fat in those shorts". And women lie to men, in the same ways. "No, of course size doesn't matter" . In fact, most of what we say is tempered with untruths, half truths, and evasive speech. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to tolerate living among such a bunch of lying, self serving bastards that we all are, in anything like a Society. Truth is an illusion. Absolute truth not even that. An Ideal. Honestly. 

:mittens:

@ Sigmatic, that's a really cute debating point ya got there, Sophistry ITT.

Quotesoph·istry (säf′is trē)

noun pl. sophistries -·tries

   1. unsound or misleading but clever, plausible, and subtle argument or reasoning; sophism
   2. the methods or practices of the Sophistsomores  :wink:

Origin: ME sophistrie < ML sophistria

Webster's New World College Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio.
Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Jasper

@ MMIX, that's a really cute condescendingly dismissive post you got there.

Nevermind, nothing is true and reality is lies, la la la.  All is maya.

;)

MMIX

Fuckit Sig - I'm sorry, I didn't mean to condescend. Far from it, in fact. Its a constant tightrope around here - how to acknowledge the yucks without killing the underlying discussion - and read my sig tag - I DO realise how crap I am at it, but it ain't gonna stop me trying.

The serious point though and the reason I posted itt is that there is always a danger when bright people jam on ideas and vamp around concepts that the nature of "intellectual discussion" [- yeah note those big,bad, scare quotes,] will tend towards privileging the "discussion as game" aspect over the "discussion for enlightenment" thing. Sorry if that sounds pompous but I'm trying to be accurate in putting over my thoughts here. I wasn't being personal about you, but feel free to fling shit back or whatever
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Jasper

Okay, I see what you're saying and I think we're on the same page.  But I was serious when I said that you can't truthfully argue against the existence of truth itself.  It's axiomatic. 

(Unless Beast was simply ignoring the rules, which is about as par for Discordian dialogue as The Capitalization Meme.)


MMIX

I think BB was taking the same stance as I would [correct me if I'm wrong BB] that in a META-discussion you take an imaginary step backwards so that, for the purposes of argument, you are literally thinking outside the box.
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Brotep

Quote from: Sigmatic on September 19, 2010, 08:40:44 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying and I think we're on the same page.  But I was serious when I said that you can't truthfully argue against the existence of truth itself.  It's axiomatic. 

(Unless Beast was simply ignoring the rules, which is about as par for Discordian dialogue as The Capitalization Meme.)
Axiomatic means it is an assumed, unproven premise. Which means you can reject that premise and thus the system built upon it.


Quote from: MMIX on September 19, 2010, 07:58:34 PMthere is always a danger when bright people jam on ideas and vamp around concepts that the nature of "intellectual discussion" [- yeah note those big,bad, scare quotes,] will tend towards privileging the "discussion as game" aspect over the "discussion for enlightenment" thing

This is quite true and endlessly vexing.

Phox

I thought axiomatic meant something was Lawful-aligned?  :? :? :? :? :?

Serious thought: I agree with what BB is saying, and I think he is right. This gives me an idea....