LABELS - The Thread!

[Juana]

I ignore them, for the most part. I don't need "lapsed Jesuit straight CIS caucasian former drug addict professional artist felon american right-handed blah blah blah" when "Joe" will do.

I also see that most of us here who could be considered "CIS" don't LIKE "CIS". So what happened to self-determination? When I use a term, I use the ones people generally WANT to be called. Labels that people don't want to be called are known as "slurs". If a label's going to get hung on ME from somewhere else, of COURSE I'm going to swat it off.

Those labels tell Joe's story. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I like knowing people's stories.

Cis doesn't lock you into anything, precisely. What you do with you, or what "woman" means to you, or whatever, is still what you determine. If you don't like cis, well, *shrug* I'm going to find another word that means "born into a female body, identifies as a woman" because that's, so far as I know, what your story is. Mostly because I'm not and I need a word that describes people who are. Which I realize and respect that you don't like it, but I need to be able to explain how I'm different and that requires that I understand and can describe how most other people are.
Am I making sense here? Like, I'm not using the word to box you in (you're still Stella, lady who lives in a town populated by 'you werkin'?' robots) but I need to be able to describe how I, and other people, are different than the dominant set of gender identities, which you, so far as I know identify with, in order to explain myself to myself.

I think the biggest point of contention here is Labels: The Uniform! and Labels: The Nametag!

Who is using what?

Also Garbo, you're coming off as a zealot. Try to realize that people can understand through their own experiences what its like to be the nonpriveleged.

I use them to tag ideas, which is where I see the value in them.

Oops. Not my intention. Sorry, everyone. I probably need a day off the interbutts soon, haha.

[Faust]

If you are discussing semantics on a forum chances are you come from privilege, its not a valid argument because this is the definition of armchair philosophy and nothing screams privilege more then that.

We are all privileged, then thousand people die a day of dehydration alone so that we can maintain our standard of living. This corrupts us to our core, layers of privilege between the different class, race and sex divides are merely an after thought on top of that.

The fact that someone has a computer and internet available indicates privilege in and of itself.

Having the time to divide up labels and roles into micromanaged poor sounding words is another privilege not afforded to those without. We literally live as aristocratic gods so arguing about privilege in that case seems hypocritical.

[Juana]

I think the biggest point of contention here is Labels: The Uniform! and Labels: The Nametag!

Who is using what?

Also Garbo, you're coming off as a zealot. Try to realize that people can understand through their own experiences what its like to be the nonpriveleged.

THIS. Everybody isn't "privileged" 24/7 just because they're white guys.

Also, my self-determination thing isn't being addressed. If we don't want to be called "CIS" and we're going to get it hung on us anyway, might as well go back to saying "colored". 

Okay, I won't call you cis. I still have to explain myself in opposition to what the norm is, because I am not the norm. So far as I know, you are when it comes to gender. How else can I explain what it is that makes "her" sound fucking weird when applied to me when I'm definitely a female?

Privilege comes in many, many flavors. Pent - SCW dude - has less privilege than I do in some ways because I'm middle class and he's not. I'm fully aware of how privileged I am, as a white female in a society dominated by white people, on a planet effectively controlled and owned by white people.

[Juana]

If you are discussing semantics on a forum chances are you come from privilege, its not a valid argument because this is the definition of armchair philosophy and nothing screams privilege more then that.

We are all privileged, then thousand people die a day of dehydration alone so that we can maintain our standard of living. This corrupts us to our core, layers of privilege between the different class, race and sex divides are merely an after thought on top of that.

The fact that someone has a computer and internet available indicates privilege in and of itself.

Having the time to divide up labels and roles into micromanaged poor sounding words is another privilege not afforded to those without. We literally live as aristocratic gods so arguing about privilege in that case seems hypocritical.

Can we not go there? And discussions of privilege are necessary to making the world a less shitty place because they're needed to explain WHY shit sucks for entire groups.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If you are discussing semantics on a forum chances are you come from privilege, its not a valid argument because this is the definition of armchair philosophy and nothing screams privilege more then that.

We are all privileged, then thousand people die a day of dehydration alone so that we can maintain our standard of living. This corrupts us to our core, layers of privilege between the different class, race and sex divides are merely an after thought on top of that.

The fact that someone has a computer and internet available indicates privilege in and of itself.

Having the time to divide up labels and roles into micromanaged poor sounding words is another privilege not afforded to those without. We literally live as aristocratic gods so arguing about privilege in that case seems hypocritical.

Can we not go there? And discussions of privilege are necessary to making the world a less shitty place because they're needed to explain WHY shit sucks for entire groups.

Yes, and they are used to explain why some groups can't think past their filters, should they express an undesirable opinion.

[Faust]

If you are discussing semantics on a forum chances are you come from privilege, its not a valid argument because this is the definition of armchair philosophy and nothing screams privilege more then that.

We are all privileged, then thousand people die a day of dehydration alone so that we can maintain our standard of living. This corrupts us to our core, layers of privilege between the different class, race and sex divides are merely an after thought on top of that.

The fact that someone has a computer and internet available indicates privilege in and of itself.

Having the time to divide up labels and roles into micromanaged poor sounding words is another privilege not afforded to those without. We literally live as aristocratic gods so arguing about privilege in that case seems hypocritical.

Can we not go there? And discussions of privilege are necessary to making the world a less shitty place because they're needed to explain WHY shit sucks for entire groups.

Actions of balance are necessary, discussions on the other hand are for the UN, they are a great way to idle away the time and feel like progress has been made.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

We would like to take this opportunity to remind our faithful readers to be sure to keep plenty of labels on hand for your personal safety!

You see, we are engaged in a conversation today and during the course of this conversation it has become obvious that it would not be possible to come to an agreement on the interpretation of certain facts, whereupon some of us were informed that we are "privileged" and thus cannot form an accurate opinion.

Labels protect us, friends, by reducing things to their lowest level, making them harmless, one-dimensional things which can be neatly filed away and forgotten.  Labels tear the legs off anything which imperils the flimsy structure of our own world-view, giving us the illusion of stability while perched at the wobbly end of a lot of fragments of random evidence tied together with delicate strands of coincidence and assumption.  A properly labeled idea or object (and labeling reduces PEOPLE to mere objects) becomes Proof of Our Correctness, in that it can be used as evidence whether it agrees with us or not.  On those occasions when it doesn't "fit in" to our structure of belief it is rendered invalid by its label, evidence that IT is wrong, and WE are STILL RIGHT.

You may say, if we do that, we'll just be FOOLING OURSELVES, we'll just be REJECTING a lot of concepts that may be more valid than the illusions we strive to maintain!  That's right, friends, but DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.  Everybody's doing it, so it MUST be alright!  You want to be like everybody else, don't you?  You don't want to be thought some sort of WEIRDO just because you'd rather BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF and ADAPT YOUR LIFE TO THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION than consign ideas, people, philosophies, even NATIONS to the memory hole for failing to agree with your PERSONAL OPINIONS! YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CALLED PRIVILEGED AND RENDERED INVALID BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE, DO YOU?  Of course not.  Remember, when you come across ANYTHING which doesn't support your worldview, Label it, File it, and FORGET IT.  Then you'll be NORMAL AND ACCEPTABLE like everybody else.

[Juana]

The point is that you HAVE boxes you didn't have to search for years for; they were given to you and that's a privilege some people don't have. You didn't spend years struggling with a vital part your identity in the same way some people, myself among them, did.

No.  Just every single day of my life since 1996.  Doesn't count, I suppose. 

Does count. It's not something I was aware of.

[Juana]

I think the biggest point of contention here is Labels: The Uniform! and Labels: The Nametag!

Who is using what?

Also Garbo, you're coming off as a zealot. Try to realize that people can understand through their own experiences what its like to be the nonpriveleged.

THIS. Everybody isn't "privileged" 24/7 just because they're white guys.

Also, my self-determination thing isn't being addressed. If we don't want to be called "CIS" and we're going to get it hung on us anyway, might as well go back to saying "colored". 

I cannot see past privilege because I am a White cis/straight male.

I am an animal.

Seriously, Roger, chill the fuck out. You're getting all wound up and putting words in our mouths. Every single one of us who has talked about privilege coming from a sociological angle has said in one way or another that you CAN see past privilege. We know you can, we know you and men/privileged people in general (among whom all of us here count), CAN see past what they were given at birth.

[Freeky]

Okay.

Garbo, is it safe to say that you feel like you need "normal" people to have a label so that you no longer feel ostracized or abnormal?  If that's it, that's fine, but don't get hostile to the people who don't want your label (for purposes of equalizing the playing field) when you are the person who labeled yourself.  And if you need a label for them, whatever.  Keep it to yourself if you really can't think without them, and remember that you've just dropped to all fours.

You aren't acting like Labels: The Nametag!, you're acting like Labels:  The Uniform!  Calm down, and relax your stance.  There are people, people who don't have to deal with labels, who nonetheless make the effort to understand and have been in situation(s) where they can at least grasp the fundamentals of the circumstances of people who are less priveleged.  Is that all priveleged people?  Hell the fuck no!  Most people don't have the opportunity or motivation to do it.  But don't write off people who say they can understand, even if you don't have all the facts.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The point is that you HAVE boxes you didn't have to search for years for; they were given to you and that's a privilege some people don't have. You didn't spend years struggling with a vital part your identity in the same way some people, myself among them, did.

No.  Just every single day of my life since 1996.  Doesn't count, I suppose. 

Does count. It's not something I was aware of.

And that is EXACTLY what I am talking about.  In the other thread, Faust just made a statement about how "nobody here has ever been oppressed", because we all have one form of privilege or another.  And BOTH of you are FULL OF SHIT.  Oppression and privilege are in no way connected, except that privilege makes oppressing other people slightly easier.

Your identity problems are based on cis/trans whatever.  Mine are based on something grimmer and far more basic, but MY issues in no way invalidate YOUR issues, and the other way around.  You live with the fear of rape and being seconded based on your sex and gender orientation, and I live with a 16 ton weight on my conscience.

You look at men walking by, and worry that they may have designs on your body.  I look at people walking by, and worry that they might suddenly point and shout "PARIAH!  KILLER!  MURDERER!  FUCKING ANIMAL!"  Both are at the same time reasonable and paranoid.  Both are still very real fears.

To claim that one is greater than the other is to claim that it's okay to be hanged, if they use a golden rope.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Seriously, Roger, chill the fuck out. You're getting all wound up and putting words in our mouths.

Maybe.  Or maybe you don't realize the impact of the words that are actually coming out of your mouths.

[Juana]

Until I snapped at Roger, I was not being hostile. I'm sorry if I came off that way.

If you are discussing semantics on a forum chances are you come from privilege, its not a valid argument because this is the definition of armchair philosophy and nothing screams privilege more then that.

We are all privileged, then thousand people die a day of dehydration alone so that we can maintain our standard of living. This corrupts us to our core, layers of privilege between the different class, race and sex divides are merely an after thought on top of that.

Privilege is something that exists in the fucking West, too, at all levels, and it needs to be dealt with. If you're saying, "hey the UN is the only one who can talk about race and sex relations in America (or where ever)" then you need to remember that change happens on the ground. Roger learned something, Roger changed something about his vocabulary, because we talked about male privilege. I'm sure he's not the only one, he's just the most vocal about it. I know that I learned what my asshole behavior was through these kinds of discussions. I changed because I learned about privilege. All this shit happened on the ground.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Until I snapped at Roger, I was not being hostile.

Which is totally inexcusable, given my saintly and buddha-like behavior.

[Freeky]

Garbo, remember saying how you probably need to step away for a while?

You probably need to step away for a while.