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What does this have to do with Chaos?

Started by Triple Zero, February 13, 2007, 08:56:47 PM

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LHX

chaos generally reminds me of yin

BIP suggests to me that you need to learn to live with it and factor it in to how you approach life rather than trying to ignore its presence because you can temporarily convince yourself that it isnt there


no matter how 'good' technology gets, there are some things that will never be able to be controlled/predicted
neat hell

LMNO

I think BIP is only tangentially associated with Chaos.

In the PD, "Chaos" (as Mang alluded to) was a way of freeing the uptight, straightlaced people from the belief that Order was Good, and Disorder was Bad.  It looked at the rigid rules and reglations of society and government, and saw that it led to human misery, and not too much fun.  It seemed to be all about adding fun and humor to life, and not to be freaked out when weird shit went down.


BIP is about (for me), recognizing that there is more weird shit going on in the Universe that we can notice, but we can change the way we notice things, with the end result (hopefully) making us happier.


So, PD Chaos = getting people to loosen up.
BIP = getting people to loosen up.

Triple Zero

so the general idea is that Chaos is, either way, just a sideways related thing?

and that the things-are-fucked-up (and ought to be less fucked up) view is the important part?

i dunno, i really have the idea we're not been giving the concept of chaos its due attention lately .. unless you really think it's not that important.

the thing i see currently with Chaos, that we need to get out of the way a bit, is that i really think we're now all talking about different definitions of Chaos.

the only Chaos i can talk with some certainty about is mathematical chaos. but that interpretation of chaos is rather new, somewhere since the end 50s, begin 60s i think. this is why i had such a hard time fooling myself to believe Asimov's Foundation saga, the psychohistory stuff he writes about, used to be a SciFi concept when he wrote it, but ever since they invented chaos-theory, it has more and more been redirected to the realm of Fantasy. but i digress.

then there's chaos as "your room is in chaos!" which is a whole different thing. probably a similar but smaller thing than "this land is in chaos!"

then there's the sort of chaos that "loosens people up", which may be related to the other types of chaos, but is really not the same. because a land in chaos doesn't necessarily loosen people up.

then there's the traditional chaos = order + disorder view, which, while accurate to reason with, people keep confusing disorder and chaos in this context, no matter how hard you smack them on the head.

then, i think there should also be room for some kind of archetypical Chaos, god(dess) of Chaos, etc. Chaos as a force of Nature/Reality. that kind of stuff.

also, indeed good stuff from Silly, but as i said before, i disagree with the notion of only small pockets of seeming order can exist within the big reality of Chaos.
imo, it's alternating order/disorder when you rise or descend in scale. we humans can create a small pocket of order, but when we zoom out, it's all chaos anyway, but i'm pretty sure when you zoom even further out it becomes order (though not really order we humans could understand), and further there's chaos, etc etc.
it would make sense and mathematical models seem to confirm this:
fractals and chaos
the image on this site you need to interpret one-dimensionally, meaning, the 'zooming' i spoke about happens only on the x-axis. as you can see there's regions with chaos, but if you look closer, these regions are in fact ordered in some way, in a whole weird tangled up sort of fashion.
ok so the fact that this happens in a lot (but not all) mathematical chaotic models, is of course no reason to assume this is the case for Reality as well.

oh i can advise people to click around a bit on that site, it contains beauties like
"Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit."
– Henry Adams

heh
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

LMNO

Well, what does the Law of Fives, or Starbuck's Pebbles have to do with chaos?

I think the BIP is just part of a new PD.

We can easily start writing about Chaos, what it is, why it's important, etc. 

Maybe we should. 

Triple Zero

i think we should indeed.

or at least, it's good to realize that the BIP is only a part of discordianism.

and then to look which other parts are worth considering still in 2007.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

AFK

Do we think that even if we can come to some loose consensus of what chaos is that we can then impart that consensus on the larger populous, or at least portions of it.  I think 000 illustrated nicely a few posts ago at how different people think of "chaos", I think the example he gave of "your room is chaos" is a good one.  Of course this has a lot to do with how lazy society has become with language and words.  It seems like precision in language has been lost over time, or is it just me?
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Triple Zero

well, "chaos" is just a word, do not forget that.

and arguing about the meaning of a word is not really fruitful, except for agreeing on a few definitions for future arguments. which might be handy for us. but only for us.

unless you want to accompany your pamphlet with some kind of glossary (do people have the patience for that?)

but we can just discuss chaos and it's uses and what not and don't even have to mention the word "chaos" in the pamphlets, as long as we get the ideas across.
if we can only write down "chaos" and be ambiguous about it, then better just skip the word and use something less ambiguous.

really it's just a word, and we're not here to teach people words. we want to give them ideas.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

LMNO

Over in another forum, I tried to spell out the difference between the Mathematical word "chaos" and the Discordian word "chaos".  It didn't go well.

I'll x-post it here, to kick start things.

AFK

This makes sense.  So perhaps we should fire up the word filter again and throw chaos into it.  figuratively speaking of course
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 14, 2007, 02:17:09 PM
Do we think that even if we can come to some loose consensus of what chaos is that we can then impart that consensus on the larger populous, or at least portions of it.  I think 000 illustrated nicely a few posts ago at how different people think of "chaos", I think the example he gave of "your room is chaos" is a good one.  Of course this has a lot to do with how lazy society has become with language and words.  It seems like precision in language has been lost over time, or is it just me?

Language is constantly and chaotically :wink: evolving. Memes run rife. Not a problem as long as you introduce your word. Define it for the time being in the context of your essay - "Chaos is...." And don't get too hung up on the fact that it'll mean something different tomorrow. Only the meanings stay the same. The words are just fridge magnets.

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Quote from: SillyCybin on February 14, 2007, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 14, 2007, 02:17:09 PM
Do we think that even if we can come to some loose consensus of what chaos is that we can then impart that consensus on the larger populous, or at least portions of it.  I think 000 illustrated nicely a few posts ago at how different people think of "chaos", I think the example he gave of "your room is chaos" is a good one.  Of course this has a lot to do with how lazy society has become with language and words.  It seems like precision in language has been lost over time, or is it just me?

Language is constantly and chaotically :wink: evolving. Memes run rife. Not a problem as long as you introduce your word. Define it for the time being in the context of your essay - "Chaos is...." And don't get too hung up on the fact that it'll mean something different tomorrow. Only the meanings stay the same. The words are just fridge magnets.

Nice metaphore.
One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

     --Reverse Brainwashing: A Guide http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=9801.0


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