And right off the bat, he's talking about removing all the daily spell limits. And I'm like no, dude, just give us wands. Make them cheap. Apply the price adjustment that you'd apply to firearms in a Guns Everywhere setting and you're golden. Look, I have Ultimate Combat right here. 10%. There you go.
And then he starts going off about how maybe I'm right, but continues to kind of miss the point. He's like, "Maybe the battle mages have magic items that are kind of like wands, but they recharge every day and you can change which spells are stored in them." And I say no, you're underestimating wands. They'll do just fine.
And then it occurs to me that in a setting where everyone's a spellcaster, the schools of Illusion and Enchantment are almost completely useless. Conversely, spells that require Fortitude or Reflex saves are overpowered.
Is it worth trying to balance, or should I write off the idea altogether?
I say join the game and break the shit out of it until he breaks down sobbing and tell him, "And this is why I said I what I did."
Quote from: Guru Qu1x073 on September 01, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
I say join the game and break the shit out of it until he breaks down sobbing and tell him, "And this is why I said I what I did."
I'm thinking I'll be a Summoner. That way, I have an effective means of taking advantage of everyone else's physical weakness, and my high Charisma score will help with Use Magic Device, meaning I can just use wands for the offensive spells my class doesn't grant me.
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on September 01, 2012, 06:12:15 PM
And right off the bat, he's talking about removing all the daily spell limits. And I'm like no, dude, just give us wands. Make them cheap. Apply the price adjustment that you'd apply to firearms in a Guns Everywhere setting and you're golden. Look, I have Ultimate Combat right here. 10%. There you go.
And then he starts going off about how maybe I'm right, but continues to kind of miss the point. He's like, "Maybe the battle mages have magic items that are kind of like wands, but they recharge every day and you can change which spells are stored in them." And I say no, you're underestimating wands. They'll do just fine.
And then it occurs to me that in a setting where everyone's a spellcaster, the schools of Illusion and Enchantment are almost completely useless. Conversely, spells that require Fortitude or Reflex saves are overpowered.
Is it worth trying to balance, or should I write off the idea altogether?
I'd write it off. It's a gimmick, and those usually exist to cover a lack of actual plot.
That sounds like an awful idea. Everyone has unlimited magic capability? Really?
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 03, 2012, 08:14:07 PM
That sounds like an awful idea. Everyone has unlimited magic capability? Really?
Imagine the chaos you could create, with the right spell list...
Quote from: Luna on September 03, 2012, 08:18:30 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 03, 2012, 08:14:07 PM
That sounds like an awful idea. Everyone has unlimited magic capability? Really?
Imagine the chaos you could create, with the right spell list...
Meh. With everyone being some kind of spellcaster, the battles would be unimaginably boring. No thanks.
I'd roll up a set of stats for a warrior and see if I can get in enough feats to make it bad-ass in hand to hand anyway.
but yeah, It definitely sounds like a gimmick... ask him for a detailed write-up of the world and see if he can give a decent plot hook. If not I'd take a pass personally.
At-will magic works, but not breaking a previously gygaxian "per day" system. Earthdawn has at will magic ("cast all day") but limits it by how many you have at hand at any one time (and then bans certain effects due to world metaphysics). Earthdawn still has summoned/bound spirits/ghosts/elementals/etc at upper levels, so it's pretty dead-on for the Sword& Sorcery and "Vancian" tropes.
I'm a fond of the GURPS magic system because it makes possible "all day" magic at very high skill levels and the world building easily allows for as much or little as you may want.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on September 03, 2012, 11:01:05 PM
I'd roll up a set of stats for a warrior and see if I can get in enough feats to make it bad-ass in hand to hand anyway.
but yeah, It definitely sounds like a gimmick... ask him for a detailed write-up of the world and see if he can give a decent plot hook. If not I'd take a pass personally.
He basically thought of it off the cuff. It's definitely a gimmick.
And no, he won't allow straight fighters(though he did reconsider his previous no-weapons position and allow magi) But a summoner's the next best thing. You have Summon Monster for minions, and when things get really hairy you've got the eidolon to stand in for muscle.
Only arcane, or are divine casters allowed too? Seems like a paladin, cleric, or an oracle would be the most broken in that campaign, given their ability to wield weapons and wear heavier armor.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 04, 2012, 04:29:54 PM
Only arcane, or are divine casters allowed too? Seems like a paladin, cleric, or an oracle would be the most broken in that campaign, given their ability to wield weapons and wear heavier armor.
You'd think so, but he declared that weapons simply didn't exist in the setting. His reasoning was that if everyone had magic, they wouldn't have had any reason to develop weapons. I pointed out antimagic, and a day later he grudgingly allowed magi, with the justification that fencing was a sport. Never mind that the entire origin of fencing irl was that it was an abstraction of a form of combat that already existed.
Then I talked him into allowing rogues, on the basis that they have a couple of rogue talents that let them learn magic. Still haven't heard from him on what he's doing with the rest of it.
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on September 04, 2012, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 04, 2012, 04:29:54 PM
Only arcane, or are divine casters allowed too? Seems like a paladin, cleric, or an oracle would be the most broken in that campaign, given their ability to wield weapons and wear heavier armor.
You'd think so, but he declared that weapons simply didn't exist in the setting. His reasoning was that if everyone had magic, they wouldn't have had any reason to develop weapons. I pointed out antimagic, and a day later he grudgingly allowed magi, with the justification that fencing was a sport. Never mind that the entire origin of fencing irl was that it was an abstraction of a form of combat that already existed.
Then I talked him into allowing rogues, on the basis that they have a couple of rogue talents that let them learn magic. Still haven't heard from him on what he's doing with the rest of it.
Run, do not walk.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 04, 2012, 05:28:32 PM
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on September 04, 2012, 05:12:10 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 04, 2012, 04:29:54 PM
Only arcane, or are divine casters allowed too? Seems like a paladin, cleric, or an oracle would be the most broken in that campaign, given their ability to wield weapons and wear heavier armor.
You'd think so, but he declared that weapons simply didn't exist in the setting. His reasoning was that if everyone had magic, they wouldn't have had any reason to develop weapons. I pointed out antimagic, and a day later he grudgingly allowed magi, with the justification that fencing was a sport. Never mind that the entire origin of fencing irl was that it was an abstraction of a form of combat that already existed.
Then I talked him into allowing rogues, on the basis that they have a couple of rogue talents that let them learn magic. Still haven't heard from him on what he's doing with the rest of it.
Run, do not walk.
It's getting to be like a train wreck. I can't watch, but I can't look away. :horrormirth:
Anytime there's a radical departure from the established game mechanic, what it's really saying is "I can't think of a plot for my game."
Same thing happens when some dumbass says "roll in at 20th level".
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 04, 2012, 06:43:23 PM
Anytime there's a radical departure from the established game mechanic, what it's really saying is "I can't think of a plot for my game."
Same thing happens when some dumbass says "roll in at 20th level".
To be fair, I have the same problem.
But when I have it, I don't run a game.
EDIT: By the way, how do you start your games? It's something I've been having a lot of trouble with. Do you find that the old "you all meet in a tavern" does the job, or do you try to be more original about it? I have the kinds of players that are inclined to wander off and split the party at every opportunity, so I have to go out of my way to justify the party sticking together, and I always find there's no way to guarantee it without railroading. The end result, of course, is that I scrap every first session I plan.
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on September 04, 2012, 07:23:36 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 04, 2012, 06:43:23 PM
Anytime there's a radical departure from the established game mechanic, what it's really saying is "I can't think of a plot for my game."
Same thing happens when some dumbass says "roll in at 20th level".
To be fair, I have the same problem.
But when I have it, I don't run a game.
EDIT: By the way, how do you start your games? It's something I've been having a lot of trouble with. Do you find that the old "you all meet in a tavern" does the job, or do you try to be more original about it? I have the kinds of players that are inclined to wander off and split the party at every opportunity, so I have to go out of my way to justify the party sticking together, and I always find there's no way to guarantee it without railroading. The end result, of course, is that I scrap every first session I plan.
The trick to getting a good game going involves first finding excellent players and second ensuring that they NEVER really know what the plot will be and that they can trust you to bring the awesome when things get scattered. Assume that scatter will happen and possibly consider starting each player separately or in very small groups before you begin to meet regularly. Note that the burden of both of these is almost entirely on you.
Being an ST is the most exhausting activity one can engage in, next to soccer.
I prefer to improvise in broad strokes toward a set of key events and allow the players to think that they've got me on the ropes. They're in it for the thrill too. Never, ever forget this.
Don't be afraid to "cheat" but use it extremely sparingly. You are god of the game, but it has to be "reasonably" fair or the thrill and opportunity for the players to advance THEIR plots is lost in your ego-trip. Whenever possible use plot devices and such, rather than mechanics, for this purpose. If you're going to be blatant about it you better have a GODDAMN good plot hook built into it.
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on September 04, 2012, 07:23:36 PM
EDIT: By the way, how do you start your games? It's something I've been having a lot of trouble with. Do you find that the old "you all meet in a tavern" does the job, or do you try to be more original about it? I have the kinds of players that are inclined to wander off and split the party at every opportunity, so I have to go out of my way to justify the party sticking together, and I always find there's no way to guarantee it without railroading. The end result, of course, is that I scrap every first session I plan.
20 pt buy, book races/classes, and I let the plot of the adventure determine where they start and how/if they know each other.
And I mercilessly crush party-splitters merely by using the wandering monster chart, or a mugging, etc.
Party-splitters are universally attention whores who can't cooperate on SHIT, and deserve everything that happens to them.
Players who see the plot hook and deliberately avoid it (and they always have excuses, like "What's my motivation, here", as if they were a bad B movie actor, or "I'm only playing my alignment"...WHO CHOSE THAT ALIGNMENT?) should be immediately dumped in favor of either a smaller group or another player.
I am known as The Table Nazi, but amazingly enough, I have 2 campaigns running, and a waiting list on either one. Because I don't tolerate that sort of shit...It ruins the game for everyone except the useless attention-whore.
I had a new player (to my table) stab the OBVIOUS plot hook NPC, once, about 5 minutes into the session once. No reason.
So I told him to get the fuck out, and then rewound the encounter for the rest of the party.
Wow in a Magic only world with infinite spells per day (and some weapons), I'd be rolling up a warmage/chaos mage. Not only is it nice to cast fireballs in fully armor, but fireballs in full armor while hitting a dude with a sword in the same round... YUMMEH... Or just casting Truestrike and hitting someone every round.
One of my favorite campaigns ever, we rolled up 5th level characters. The story, however, started with all of us being enslaved in a gladiator type prison. So we had no gear, no weapons etc. We had to break free and earn everything from the ground up. Another story that I liked involved us creating a 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, 15th level and 20th level version of the same character. The story began with us all waking up in the afterlife under the protection of a God. We would then be sent 'back' to the earthly realm on various jobs for this god and we'd incarnate with the level that he felt was necessary for us to complete our mission.
I thought the second one was a bit gimmicky, but the ST actually had a cohesive plot that made it work really well.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 04, 2012, 09:19:20 PM
I had a new player (to my table) stab the OBVIOUS plot hook NPC, once, about 5 minutes into the session once. No reason.
So I told him to get the fuck out, and then rewound the encounter for the rest of the party.
These methods work damn well too. Let them hate as long as they respect the damn game and there will be fun. It's also much less work.
Uncle Wally, it sounds like you have a set of atrocious players. Scrap them and find a new group if you can, or put in place a series of increasingly serious in game punishments that will teach them to stick together, cooperate, and solve the problem at hand (the plot).
Bump for "how'd this turn out, anyway?"
It didn't happen. I ended up running a game instead, but it turned out horribly and there wasn't a second session.
So in other words, it worked out exactly the same way it always does when I GM.
It appears I'm one of those people who has no trouble at all pointing out other people's mistakes, but never. Fucking. Learns.