Atheists and White Supremacists

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I see. I thought it was one of those things where moms stay 39 for five or six years after the fact.

I've always thought that sounded like a bad idea; it's a much better move to tack on an extra five or six years, so that when you tell someone you're 47 they're like "HOLY SHIT you look AMAZING!"

True. I've never made myself younger lest someone go "GAWD, DON'T LET HER HAVE ANOTHER DRINK" 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I think Atheism is a problem, maybe. I mean, it's a problem in that it is a label anyone who wants to can use as a cover for being an asshole. Not much sense in calling it out by name though, unless you spend fifteen pages listing all the other labels that are just as available to be so abused. I know atheists who are assholes. I also know Christians who are assholes, and Economists, and Republicans and Democrats, and Libertarians and Anarchists and Gym Teachers and so on and so forth.

For all the backpedaling that was done in this thread by the end of the first page, the title could have been "Assholes are Assholes," and the entirety of the OP could have been "People who do things that piss me off aren't worth the DNA they're made from." But that would have lacked the biting irony of making a big speech about how awful it is to share a planet with people who proudly, loudly, and sometimes offensively proclaim their superiority to people who disagree with them.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think Atheism is a problem, maybe. I mean, it's a problem in that it is a label anyone who wants to can use as a cover for being an asshole. Not much sense in calling it out by name though, unless you spend fifteen pages listing all the other labels that are just as available to be so abused. I know atheists who are assholes. I also know Christians who are assholes, and Economists, and Republicans and Democrats, and Libertarians and Anarchists and Gym Teachers and so on and so forth.

For all the backpedaling that was done in this thread by the end of the first page, the title could have been "Assholes are Assholes," and the entirety of the OP could have been "People who do things that piss me off aren't worth the DNA they're made from." But that would have lacked the biting irony of making a big speech about how awful it is to share a planet with people who proudly, loudly, and sometimes offensively proclaim their superiority to people who disagree with them.

Really? Who backpedaled? Care to call it out by post? Because I stand by my OP, and I never called Atheists assholes, as far as I can recall. I called them insecure, and therefore seeking a sense of relative self-worth by creating a comparison in which they judge non-Atheists negatively.

I did elaborate after that, but elaboration isn't backpedaling. I'm sorry if my opinion makes you uncomfortable.

Oh wait, no I'm not. That was the point.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In essence, I see Atheists as people who look at reality and say "I want to be a member of an identity club that allows me to either wield my intellectual aspirations as a bludgeon, or to chuckle approvingly at those who do so".

The atheist (note the small a) population, by and large, fails to speak out against the Atheist community's bigotry, thereby tacitly accepting and endorsing it as a representation of all atheism.

It's fucking sick. Sorry, guys, if that spears any of your sacred cows. But it is.








Oh, no, they don't represent "all" Atheists. But apparently the ones who it doesn't represent don't care to object, either. I don't see them when these are disseminated in social media, or in comments when  they show up. Tacit approval, much like the tacit approval of slurs against non-atheists when they show up here.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I think Atheism is a problem, maybe. I mean, it's a problem in that it is a label anyone who wants to can use as a cover for being an asshole. Not much sense in calling it out by name though, unless you spend fifteen pages listing all the other labels that are just as available to be so abused. I know atheists who are assholes. I also know Christians who are assholes, and Economists, and Republicans and Democrats, and Libertarians and Anarchists and Gym Teachers and so on and so forth.

For all the backpedaling that was done in this thread by the end of the first page, the title could have been "Assholes are Assholes," and the entirety of the OP could have been "People who do things that piss me off aren't worth the DNA they're made from." But that would have lacked the biting irony of making a big speech about how awful it is to share a planet with people who proudly, loudly, and sometimes offensively proclaim their superiority to people who disagree with them.

Really? Who backpedaled? Care to call it out by post? Because I stand by my OP.

The OP was outright and apparently intentionally inflammatory. ATHEISTS = WHITE SUPREMACISTS, and all that. Not only are atheists assholes, but they are literally the philosophical and moral equivalent of one of the very worst kinds of assholes. Entirely bankrupt morally and intellectually. There was no equivocation in the OP, and if there was nuance, it was invisible to the casual  reader.

But then, people [Cain] said "hey wait a minute I'm an atheist." Apparently the nuance was invisible to readers of a considerably less casual caliber. So then, it was

Question for you: Do you identify as an "Atheist" or do you merely hold an atheistic position regarding the existence of God? Because I would argue that "an Atheist" is a different animal from an atheist, in much the same way that a white person is a different animal from a White Supremacist.

The current direction of the Atheist Movement, as a group of people who identify as Atheist, is a mindset that I can only describe as Atheist Supremacy.

and

What do you want? Atheists. People who identify as Atheists. People who revolve a portion of their identity around being part of a group that believes that God doesn't exist.

Atheists. How much more specific do you want me to get? It's an ugly group that's getting uglier, which is why, although at one time I would have called myself an atheist, I won't anymore, because there is now a group identity of "Atheist" that I want nothing to do with.

Or, loosely translated

I don't see you as an "Atheist". I meant, you know, Atheists.

It is possible to identify as a <group> without being an asshole or conforming to stereotypes about <group>. Sometimes that identity is important to a person's self-image, and taking that identity and shitting all over it because a few people use it as a crutch while being assholes is sort of a dick move. Saying shit like "It's okay to be an atheist as long as you keep it to yourself" or "There's a difference between an 'atheist' and an 'Atheist'" sounds a lot like something one of those White Supremacists might say.

There's always someone who is insufficiently tolerant and thus is unworthy of tolerance themselves. There's a certain kind of sickness in that logic that makes me uncomfortable.

[Don Coyote]

well you have certainly shown me the errors of my sinful ways.


nope

get fucked Nigel.
you chose to make a point in deliberately trollish wau and while I acknowledge the validity of your point you have lost my respect.  not that anyone actually gives a shit about my opinion or input or contributions here. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And that was in that thread, after I lost my shit.

Hang on, while I dig up one of the earlier ones.

I'm used to the idea of certain people being inherently hostile to religion. Pent is one of those people, so my initial reaction was to gloss over it.

Going to read the rest of the thread until I'm caught up.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think Atheism is a problem, maybe. I mean, it's a problem in that it is a label anyone who wants to can use as a cover for being an asshole. Not much sense in calling it out by name though, unless you spend fifteen pages listing all the other labels that are just as available to be so abused. I know atheists who are assholes. I also know Christians who are assholes, and Economists, and Republicans and Democrats, and Libertarians and Anarchists and Gym Teachers and so on and so forth.

For all the backpedaling that was done in this thread by the end of the first page, the title could have been "Assholes are Assholes," and the entirety of the OP could have been "People who do things that piss me off aren't worth the DNA they're made from." But that would have lacked the biting irony of making a big speech about how awful it is to share a planet with people who proudly, loudly, and sometimes offensively proclaim their superiority to people who disagree with them.

Really? Who backpedaled? Care to call it out by post? Because I stand by my OP.

The OP was outright and apparently intentionally inflammatory. ATHEISTS = WHITE SUPREMACISTS, and all that. Not only are atheists assholes, but they are literally the philosophical and moral equivalent of one of the very worst kinds of assholes. Entirely bankrupt morally and intellectually. There was no equivocation in the OP, and if there was nuance, it was invisible to the casual  reader.

But then, people [Cain] said "hey wait a minute I'm an atheist." Apparently the nuance was invisible to readers of a considerably less casual caliber. So then, it was

Question for you: Do you identify as an "Atheist" or do you merely hold an atheistic position regarding the existence of God? Because I would argue that "an Atheist" is a different animal from an atheist, in much the same way that a white person is a different animal from a White Supremacist.

The current direction of the Atheist Movement, as a group of people who identify as Atheist, is a mindset that I can only describe as Atheist Supremacy.

and

What do you want? Atheists. People who identify as Atheists. People who revolve a portion of their identity around being part of a group that believes that God doesn't exist.

Atheists. How much more specific do you want me to get? It's an ugly group that's getting uglier, which is why, although at one time I would have called myself an atheist, I won't anymore, because there is now a group identity of "Atheist" that I want nothing to do with.

Or, loosely translated

I don't see you as an "Atheist". I meant, you know, Atheists.

It is possible to identify as a <group> without being an asshole or conforming to stereotypes about <group>. Sometimes that identity is important to a person's self-image, and taking that identity and shitting all over it because a few people use it as a crutch while being assholes is sort of a dick move. Saying shit like "It's okay to be an atheist as long as you keep it to yourself" or "There's a difference between an 'atheist' and an 'Atheist'" sounds a lot like something one of those White Supremacists might say.

There's always someone who is insufficiently tolerant and thus is unworthy of tolerance themselves. There's a certain kind of sickness in that logic that makes me uncomfortable.

well you have certainly shown me the errors of my sinful ways.


nope

get fucked Nigel.
you chose to make a point in deliberately trollish wau and while I acknowledge the validity of your point you have lost my respect.  not that anyone actually gives a shit about my opinion or input or contributions here.

So kind of what I am getting from both of you boys is that this is a sacred cow you are unwilling to think about, so you are willing to cast a person you previously respected aside rather than think about it.

I'm OK with that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I know it hurts to think about ways in which you have previously refused to think, or to consider your own uniforms.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I might throw out there that atheism as a state of identity is itself a uniform that can only be worn in a state of privilege.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am going to boil this down a little more for Vex, who seems to be willfully avoiding my point: If you identify as an Atheist, yes, I DO think that YOU PERSONALLY are pretty insecure about yourself. Since you seemed to imagine that I was somehow excepting people I know.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

YES. I MEAN THAT IF YOU THINK I AM TALKING ABOUT YOU, YOU ARE INDEED FUCKING INSECURE. YOU.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In EXACTLY the same way that people who latch onto race as a means of experiencing a sense of superiority are also insecure. AND, for all the same reasons. Enjoy your sense of empty, meaningless superiority, if that is really what gives your existence meaning. I'm sorry that it's so important to you when there are so many other possibilities.

[LMNO]

I am so confused.

Is there a term for someone who has a belief in a higher probability of no god existing than a god existing in this experiential reality that in some way does not convey the antithesis of a god while still professing their belief?

Pro-universe, perhaps? Existentialphilic? But that doesn't address the strong Theic bent most people have.
It's like proving a negative. If presented with a godlike framework, doesn't one have to either say No God, or reject the framework which functionally does the same thing?

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I am going to boil this down a little more for Vex, who seems to be willfully avoiding my point: If you identify as an Atheist, yes, I DO think that YOU PERSONALLY are pretty insecure about yourself. Since you seemed to imagine that I was somehow excepting people I know.

You can think whatever you want to think. But the fact that an opinion belongs to Nigel does not mean that opinion is anything more than an opinion. Stating it unwaveringly and repeating it a hundred times has no effect on that. I am well aware that you believe yourself to be personally immune to succumbing to and speaking from a position of privilege, but again, simply holding a belief to be true does not make it so. Much like religion.

Your favorite tactic in any debate is to immediately construct a strawman to burn and then project ad-hominem attacks at anyone who begs to differ. This is a tactic you admit to and are proud of, and my saying so will only confirm in your mind that it is an effective one. Now, I can't say I always disagree with the points you make, but your style is at least as intentionally abrasive and self-centered as the Atheists you are mocking here.

As a "boy" (read: ignorant petulant child, unworthy of respect or attention, male and therefore devoid of valuable opinions) who is "willfully ignoring your point" (read: frustratingly refusing to know and assume his place), I can hardly illustrate to you the stark bullheaded hypocrisy you're engaging in here, so I'm not really going to try. But I do want you to understand that I do not care how high you build your pedestal, you are now, have been, and will continue to be -- in my estimation -- my equal, no matter how many times you rage at me and call me names for childishly failing to see how I am wrong and you are right.

When discourse always, unfailingly and immediately devolves into a pissing contest between someone who is trying to have a discussion and someone who's only concern is underscoring how Right they are all the time, it's easy to understand why every attempt at conversation results in 100 pages of trolling and baiting.