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Does advertising erode free will?

Started by Cramulus, November 23, 2010, 08:48:28 PM

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The Johnny

Quote from: Sigmatic on November 24, 2010, 07:44:45 AM
:lol:  "so there"


You seem pretty invested in this being a problem we can't address.

It is my positioning that it cannot be addressed on a wide scale. I think that powerful figures in goverment supporting this would be essential. Now on an "change the world one person at a time" scheme, it can be easier, but not less full of effort.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Jasper

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on November 24, 2010, 07:45:32 AM
Well, im not sure myself what kind of things one must know to be able to know whats going on in an advertisement...

That's where we differ.  I am more sure.  

The OP mentions advertisements that are crafted to influence your behavior without your consent.  These are actual techniques that work, and are definable.  They work much less effectively on people who are aware of them.

I am suggesting we teach them in schools, probably at a staggered pace throughout the education process.

Jasper

I am also suggesting that if we can spread a bit of concern about unfairly powerful advertising, we can drum up political support for such a program.

geekdad

Quote from: Sigmatic on November 24, 2010, 07:32:25 AM
My general rule is even harsher:  "Whatever I'm seeing is completely fatuous on multiple levels.  Purge as much of the memory as possible."

Well it's the same meme seed. KISS
Making you think you're crazy is a billion dollar industry.
If they could sell sanity in a bottle
They'd be charging for compressed air,
And marketing healthcare.

Placid Dingo

I don't see it impossible having critical thinking in schools, and presently, our models of what we're meant to be doing, locally, include embedding critical thinking into our lessons.

I think probably there's less value in the symbolism ideas though, we don't want kids to de-construct ads as much as develop some appreciation of their power, and understanding of why they have it.

Also, can't see any good coming from 'too powerful advertising' campaigns' thing, people always seem to go with 'ads are too powerful... FOR ALL THOSE OTHER PEOPLE!!! SUCKERS!!'

On the Adbusters note, I know that Ron English (at least by his own admission) helped kill the 'Baby Camel' advertising campaigns. And various campaigns have done damage to Nike etc. So there's some power in 'Subvertising' but certainly, when you fight on your enemy's turf, they have the advantage.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

geekdad

Quote from: Placid Dingo on November 24, 2010, 11:12:41 AM
So there's some power in 'Subvertising' but certainly, when you fight on your enemy's turf, they have the advantage.

I don't consider that 'their turf" though. It's anybody's. To me one of the big things about Discordia is that much of it is Kopyleft, that is just free advertising. Kopyleft ensures that information continues (as long as the idea can keep one person infected or a carrier), no matter what.

Any operation (gasm, membombs, or whatever) that involves telling the public about discordian principles/ideals... that is advertisment.

Nothing bad or good about it. It's just a tool that can be used.
Making you think you're crazy is a billion dollar industry.
If they could sell sanity in a bottle
They'd be charging for compressed air,
And marketing healthcare.

Placid Dingo

Quote from: geekdad on November 24, 2010, 11:33:35 AM
I don't consider that 'their turf" though. It's anybody's. To me one of the big things about Discordia is that much of it is Kopyleft, that is just free advertising. Kopyleft ensures that information continues (as long as the idea can keep one person infected or a carrier), no matter what.

Any operation (gasm, membombs, or whatever) that involves telling the public about discordian principles/ideals... that is advertisment.

Nothing bad or good about it. It's just a tool that can be used.

I mean that in the sense that it's their skill.

I don't think that swordfighting 'belongs' to the musketeers. But when I'm facing D'Argantan, I'd want to be armed with LAZERS.

There's a lot of ways Adverstising/Subvertising can be used by anyone. But the companies ARE the experts, and depending on your aim, using the methods they've perfected is probably not the most effective use of your time.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

geekdad

#37
Quote from: Placid Dingo on November 24, 2010, 11:56:46 AM
I don't think that swordfighting 'belongs' to the musketeers. But when I'm facing D'Argantan, I'd want to be armed with LAZERS.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I am not frequently. I'll expand the scope of what I meant.

I'm saying, advertisments are the LAZERS in the swordfight of idea/meme/data virus competition. Particularly TV commercials...  Those fleeting, loud, attention grabbing media assaults, containing more information then many people can digest at one time, professionally constructed to break down the individual's psychic defenses, you know, those. The only thing better that I can think of is 1 to 1 evangelizing (which can technically be considered advertising).

And, yea... http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/72.php

I personally think we should be advertising, Discordians aren't really known for their mad "make it rain daddy" cash though.
Making you think you're crazy is a billion dollar industry.
If they could sell sanity in a bottle
They'd be charging for compressed air,
And marketing healthcare.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Telarus on November 23, 2010, 10:18:43 PM
This is the part I disagree with. Saying "he chose to" when referring to a guy who sits down and considers getting a vasectomy for a month and then decides to go through with it, and saying "he chose to" when some other guy makes a snap decision to Super-Size his combo meal, and then equivocating one with the other (by invoking "well, they both had 'free will', so they both must have used it to make that choice"), seems like further muddling the model, not clarifying it.

Only if we consider 'choosing' as some kind of magic that happens in a vacuum. If I am at the McDonalds drive through, there are a whole host of choices I've made to get there. If I've eaten there before, then I probably know they are gonna ask if I want to SuperSize whatever meal I get (discovery, apparently they don't do that anymore). Interactive Processes. Causes and Effects.

Quote
We, as human, make snap decisions and then retroactively rationalize it to ourselves (see prev marketing posts from Cram, this is an accepted 'fact' in marketing). We also (very, very, very rarely) try to look at a situation from an abstract/objective point-of-view, and balance all of the factors before making a decision.

I think that is true. However, making snap decisions isn't necessarily an abrogation of Free Will. If anything its an exploitation of a human tendency. They still have the free will to say no, but if they're on autopilot, then they probably make a snap decision.

Quote
Here's what I think....

Most people don't have the Willpower to use their Free Will.

THAT IS MITTENS AND YUM! I agree 100%
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Telarus

Quote from: geekdad on November 24, 2010, 07:28:20 AM
The meme I have always gone by to do this is watch a commercial see how cool and neat everything looks, then think this question; "Where is the loophole?"

Meaning, what is the commercial lying to you about? It's always there, it might be easy or hard to spot. It might also be said outright ("Car shown with options.", "Some assembly required") or it might be hidden in the fine print at the end. Remember though that it's lying to you, and it's your job to find that lie.

I Name Fnords when I see them (and if my girl is around, we tend to dissect them). We've gotten the 11yr old in the habit as well (he doesn't quite get the term 'fnord' yet, no surprise, but he can catch a few of them on TV if he knows that they're fnords).

The simple fact that you have this reflex (which you try to apply evenly) puts you apart from.. oh, probably 80% of the general media consuming public.  :x
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geekdad

Quote from: Telarus on November 24, 2010, 06:39:35 PM
I Name Fnords when I see them (and if my girl is around, we tend to dissect them). We've gotten the 11yr old in the habit as well (he doesn't quite get the term 'fnord' yet, no surprise, but he can catch a few of them on TV if he knows that they're fnords).

The simple fact that you have this reflex (which you try to apply evenly) puts you apart from.. oh, probably 80% of the general media consuming public.  :x

I think I'm saying here that the reflex is a meme that can and will get lodged into people's heads. I did not have it until I read it somewhere.
Making you think you're crazy is a billion dollar industry.
If they could sell sanity in a bottle
They'd be charging for compressed air,
And marketing healthcare.

LMNO

Do you really have to call it a "meme"?

Cain

Has anyone ITT watched The Century of the Self?  It's a 4 part, BBC made documentary entirely about the link between advertising, coercion, psychoanalysis and free will.

I would say advertising is certainly designed to erode free will.  That is, after all, the point.  Most of what is being sold today, or at least sold with an advertising budget behind it, are not necessary items.  Therefore status association, lifestylism, appeals to a persons sense of self etc etc are necessarily implied in this process.  The use of psychoanalysis and focus groups in the 50s did have considerable success in helping to sell certain goods not based necessarily on their own merits, but through these kind of appeals.

However, they're not entirely successful because the understanding of the human mind is not entirely successful.  Especially when you are aware of the tactics being deployed to convince you, their impact is much lower than it would otherwise be.

In fact, The Century of the Self posits that the psychoanalytic approach (which was part of a broader psychoanalytic approach to social planning in the 50s and early sixties) was purposefully supplanted by the Neo-Reichian/New Left method of "liberating the desires" and then allowing those inflamed desires to feed back into consumption.  Whether that suggests a problem with the Neo-Reichian approach or with humans in general remains to be seen.

The Johnny


Im reading a book called "The manipulation era" by Wilson Bryan Key which in fact deals with all of this publicity manners.

If you guys wish to join along for a Book Club sort of thing it would be nice, otherwise i can just give my impressions of it on the Literate subforum.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Triple Zero

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on November 24, 2010, 06:55:41 PM
Do you really have to call it a "meme"?

:|

I don't see any problem as in this context he means something else than "internet catch-phrase / fad", which is the overused meaning of the word.

Let's not have this discussion okay? If this becomes yet another thread derailed into bitching about the word "meme", I'm gonna hold you responsible, not Geekdad for using it first.
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e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

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