PUA reaction/info/derailment thread

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

The difference being, puppies have empathy.

Yepper-doodles. And puppies are less likely to be drenched in Axe.

Thanks fuck, that shit just nasty.

I used to wear Axe and i agree.

I still think ineffective bigots are cute though. As long as they don't actually hurt someone i'm fine with them wallowing in their own inadequacy.

Once upon a time, people wore Brute.  Willingly.

Your generation is DUMB, but not as DUMB as mine.

My dad wears Brute. To this day. Religiously. As deodorant, cologne, shaving cream. Whole nine. It's horrible. Horrible.

[Cainad (dec.)]

This thread went bananas while I wasn't looking.

Okay so the bottom line is that we have a really deep-rooted set of memes about masculinity (and, correspondingly, misogyny) that are manifesting in a subset of men who become very focused on their own (sexual) disillusionment. This focus results in phony "solutions" that rely on an Us-vs-Them mentality that rings true with our culture's obsession with competition and dominance, but which demands a lack of empathy for women and tries to strip them of agency.

It would just be pathetic and kind of shitty, but the result of this is two types of men: Manipulative, likely sociopathic assholes who would probably be like this anyway and have, to put it generously, a very rapey ideal for sexual relationships. The other type of men are the sad saps who buy into the mentality, but lo and behold it doesn't actually work because, surprise, it's bullshit and based on totally dysfunctional theories of human interaction.

So at both ends of the spectrum, you get subsets of the male population who are probably making life worse for women, either directly or indirectly. This situation blows chunks out of monkey's ass and it would be totally rad if we found effective ways to counteract this crap.

Where do we go from here?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Wow, very nice synopsis, Cainad! I'm not sure where we go from here, honestly. I tell men and boys the same thing, consistently, which is that if you want to eventually have a relationship with a woman, start by making friends with women. Real, actual, care-about-their-feelings-and-experiences friends, without sexual expectations.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Wow, very nice synopsis, Cainad! I'm not sure where we go from here, honestly. I tell men and boys the same thing, consistently, which is that if you want to eventually have a relationship with a woman, start by making friends with women. Real, actual, care-about-their-feelings-and-experiences friends, without sexual expectations.

It's a good start, and ultimately that's the exact message that needs to get through.

I think it's the "without sexual expectations" part that is the most thorny. Sure, teenage boys and young men can be horny and disappointed that they aren't getting any, but more central to the problem is the idea that being turned down represents a failure to them. Since they usually don't want to internalize the idea that they "failed" to get laid, they lay blame on the girl/woman for being too selfish to see what a great and fuckable guy they are.

The cognitive dissonance, of course, is pretty easy to digest when you're both horny and trying to assuage a completely unjustified sense of failure. I think it's important to bring it to light and emphasize that "being a nice friend" and "demanding sex" are incompatible ideas.

[Junkenstein]

That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Too bad there isn't an effective way to communicate "Women/minorities/etc are people too. And not just there for whatever purpose you require." Sex, token friend, status boost, street cred, whatever.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

Wow, very nice synopsis, Cainad! I'm not sure where we go from here, honestly. I tell men and boys the same thing, consistently, which is that if you want to eventually have a relationship with a woman, start by making friends with women. Real, actual, care-about-their-feelings-and-experiences friends, without sexual expectations.

It's a good start, and ultimately that's the exact message that needs to get through.

I think it's the "without sexual expectations" part that is the most thorny. Sure, teenage boys and young men can be horny and disappointed that they aren't getting any, but more central to the problem is the idea that being turned down represents a failure to them. Since they usually don't want to internalize the idea that they "failed" to get laid, they lay blame on the girl/woman for being too selfish to see what a great and fuckable guy they are.

The cognitive dissonance, of course, is pretty easy to digest when you're both horny and trying to assuage a completely unjustified sense of failure. I think it's important to bring it to light and emphasize that "being a nice friend" and "demanding sex" are incompatible ideas.

also consider for a moment how "being a nice friend" while not demanding sex is supported in our culture, or more accurately, how it's not. Even if a guy is comfortable having that sort of relationship with a woman, people around that situation see it as pathetic, because men are supposed to demand sex. This is every Micheal Cera movie ever made, the guy starts as a nice, well-intentioned guy but the rest of the plot either revolves around the wacky obstacles one has to go through to get laid, or how he has to find another girl who doesn't "use" him, because the end goal has to be sex.

Too bad there isn't an effective way to communicate "Women/minorities/etc are people too. And not just there for whatever purpose you require." Sex, token friend, status boost, street cred, whatever.

I think there needs to be a change in how we set up expectations of love and sex in movies and media, since that's often where we construct them before we actually start dating.

[Junkenstein]

Too bad there isn't an effective way to communicate "Women/minorities/etc are people too. And not just there for whatever purpose you require." Sex, token friend, status boost, street cred, whatever.

It's even worse that this even needs to be communicated at all.

I'd have hoped the concept of "People are people too" would have been grasped by now. Sadly not.

[xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)]

That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.

I realize that its a faux pas to point this out, but have you considered that maybe people arent brainwashed into wanting sex? PUA culture isnt about wanting sex anymore than its about wanting women. Its about going after status. These are people who are trying desperately to achieve some kind of self worth, to feel like they arent losers. Taking away the symbolic association of sex and women with status, aside from being completely impossible, doesnt fix the underlying problem. All youve done is taken away one compensatory thing for another. Just because you make people accept that not having sex doesnt make you a loser, it wont make these people feel less like losers. These people are losers for entirely different reasons, reasons that sex will never fix. Thats why they need a little mental scorecard in their head of all the chicks theyve fucked, its something to point to "You see! Im not a worthless waste of carbon!"

As for this leading to "manipulative sociopathic men". If youre talking about larger cultural issues, I guess...? Empathy isnt one of Americas strong suites. Someone who is a manipulative sociopath in pursuit of one area is probably going to be a manipulative sociopath in other areas. Sociopathy has a way of leaking. If youre talking about PUA I dont buy it for a second. The reason is because these dweebs very gladly define themselves as "manipulative sociopaths", its an image. Its what they WANT to be. And the fact that they have to go out of their way to broadcast it to people so obnoxiously means that it probably isnt true.

These people need women to approve of them for their self esteem. They want to be an alpha male, but the primary way you become an "alpha male" is by having a lot of women choose to fuck you. These people put tie their self worth, their masculinity, into having sex, but what this ultimately means is that a woman is in control of your masculinity. Thats why it has to be framed as the red pilled alpha male NLP mindhacking his way into her pants with this one weird tip. Its also why a real loving relationship with a woman wont fix anything. Because a woman who loves you isnt with you because the sheer animal magnetism of your penis hijacked her vagina and overrode her inferior female brain into fucking you. A woman genuinely being in love with you isnt an ego boost.

The underlying problem here isnt that men feel like they need sex for validation, its that most people today are toxic losers who have a constant need of some kind of third party validation. And theres no fixing that, because its not an accident. These people have been carefully engineered to be this. They are perfect.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.

I realize that its a faux pas to point this out, but have you considered that maybe people arent brainwashed into wanting sex? PUA culture isnt about wanting sex anymore than its about wanting women. Its about going after status. These are people who are trying desperately to achieve some kind of self worth, to feel like they arent losers. Taking away the symbolic association of sex and women with status, aside from being completely impossible, doesnt fix the underlying problem. All youve done is taken away one compensatory thing for another. Just because you make people accept that not having sex doesnt make you a loser, it wont make these people feel less like losers. These people are losers for entirely different reasons, reasons that sex will never fix. Thats why they need a little mental scorecard in their head of all the chicks theyve fucked, its something to point to "You see! Im not a worthless waste of carbon!"

As for this leading to "manipulative sociopathic men". If youre talking about larger cultural issues, I guess...? Empathy isnt one of Americas strong suites. Someone who is a manipulative sociopath in pursuit of one area is probably going to be a manipulative sociopath in other areas. Sociopathy has a way of leaking. If youre talking about PUA I dont buy it for a second. The reason is because these dweebs very gladly define themselves as "manipulative sociopaths", its an image. Its what they WANT to be. And the fact that they have to go out of their way to broadcast it to people so obnoxiously means that it probably isnt true.

These people need women to approve of them for their self esteem. They want to be an alpha male, but the primary way you become an "alpha male" is by having a lot of women choose to fuck you. These people put tie their self worth, their masculinity, into having sex, but what this ultimately means is that a woman is in control of your masculinity. Thats why it has to be framed as the red pilled alpha male NLP mindhacking his way into her pants with this one weird tip. Its also why a real loving relationship with a woman wont fix anything. Because a woman who loves you isnt with you because the sheer animal magnetism of your penis hijacked her vagina and overrode her inferior female brain into fucking you. A woman genuinely being in love with you isnt an ego boost.

The underlying problem here isnt that men feel like they need sex for validation, its that most people today are toxic losers who have a constant need of some kind of third party validation. And theres no fixing that, because its not an accident. These people have been carefully engineered to be this. They are perfect.

Total.

Fucking.

Victory.

[Junkenstein]

Fucking flawless!

[xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)]

Fucking flawless!

?

[Junkenstein]

Fucking flawless!

?

You raised valid points which I had not considered and communicated thoughts in an easily understandable manner.

I am impressed, amused and encourage you to write more things.

[xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)]

Fucking flawless!

?

You raised valid points which I had not considered and communicated thoughts in an easily understandable manner.

I am impressed, amused and encourage you to write more things.

Thanks. Sorry, Im a little drunk and wasnt sure I was interpreting what you said right.

[Junkenstein]

Whatever it is you're doing, you appear to be doing it right.

Carry on.