Plus, I Got Religion

[P3nT4gR4m]

Faith is believing without reason. Religion is how you organize, implement or ornament that faith.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion, in fact I think it's generally pretty evil for the reasons you stated.

The "faith is a crutch" line is a pretty standard one... do you regard it as any more of a crutch than language, art, or technology?

Not really. But I do think it would be a good thing if more people didn't seem to feel the need to rely on it. More so with faith than language, art or technology.

[LMNO]

I do agree that there's really very little point in discussing faith or religion with people who don't have it, because... well, it can't be explained. It doesn't make sense. It's the thing that I call unliteral truth. Either someone gets it or they don't, and I have no place in that process.

Even further, they need to have the same kind of faith; the same unprovable conclusions.

[AFK]

I think faith can actually be pretty significant influences upon all 3 of those.  I mean, at a certain point, aren't we all relying upon "faith" at some point or another?  Faith that gravity works 100% of the time.  Faith that the sun is always going to be there.  I mean, if you boil it down, I'm not sure you can find anyone who doesn't have some kind of "faith-crutch"

[P3nT4gR4m]

I do agree that there's really very little point in discussing faith or religion with people who don't have it, because... well, it can't be explained. It doesn't make sense. It's the thing that I call unliteral truth. Either someone gets it or they don't, and I have no place in that process.

Even further, they need to have the same kind of faith; the same unprovable conclusions.

Thats what I was getting at when I said "what is faith"

Like I'd go out on a limb here and say I totally believe in god. But what I mean by "god" has absolutely no relation to what probably most of the people in the world would mean by it. So I don't say it very often. It's much more simple and actually much more honest to tell such people I don't believe in god.

[Cain]

No, I haven't, but I'll give him a whirl. Thanks!

I do agree that there's really very little point in discussing faith or religion with people who don't have it, because... well, it can't be explained. It doesn't make sense. It's the thing that I call unliteral truth. Either someone gets it or they don't, and I have no place in that process.

Well I'm not sure discussing it is always worthless, I just think its very, very easy for it to turn into a "you're wrong" slanging match, which is both boring and predictable. 

No problems.  The book I culled the quote from is called "Kierkegaard" by Michael Watts and is considered as good an introduction as any (there is an excellent review here) If you want the ebook, let me know and I'll set up the link.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think the other reason that it isn't discussed here much is because of the freedom people have here to post what they want.  I know that sounds like a paradox, but hear me out.

Let's say a person here posts their belief in the Cosmic Turtle, and let's say that there are 5 other people who agree, and they start a thread discussing the Great Carapace, or whatever.

But then, one or two people counter with, "What is this horseshit!?"

The Turtlites are free to post what they will, and so are the doubters.  No one's going to stop them.

But now, they have to defend their positions, which (as noted above) are indefensible, almost by definition.  Short of igoring the doubters completely, any further discussion becomes impossible; and even then, they'll have to skip over posts filled with mockery by the two doubters.

See what I mean?

All I'm saying is that when the "doubters", (I would not call them that, because they're not doubting anything... they're opposing it) do that, they're proselytizing just as much as when an evangelist christian pops into a conversation about evolution to try to "save" the unbelievers. Most people here would probably not very much enjoy posting on a board that was dominated by Creationists. I think that the overall tone of the board is shifting toward aggressive Atheism, and while the aggressive Atheists will probably be happy if that reduces participation by non-Atheists, I also think it will lead to the same sort of stultifying homogeneity over on Venganza, and a lot of interesting voices and perspectives could be... and, I think, are already being... lost.

And, I mean, if the end result is that POEE or EB&G gets all of the religious traffic, I guess that's just the way it goes. But the thing is, I don't really want to spend all my online time around a bunch of fucking fairy-tale worshippers, either. I like it here. I like the Atheists. I like the way they fucking rip shit apart and make fun of it. Yep. Contradictory? I don't think so. I just think it would be a damn shame if this board became totally dominated by the Atheist perspective. I like a nice balance. I would be the first to tear into some fuckhead who came in here trying to convert the Atheist contingent, and it would be nice if there was a little reciprocity.

It would be SWELL if the inevitable immediate response when someone mentions ritual or spirituality wasn't "WTF THAT SHIT IS ST00PID IT'S FOR SUPERSTITIOUS DUMBASSES WHO BELIEVE IN THE TOOF FAERIE AND NEED A CRUTCH STFU MORON!"

[LMNO]

Ok, now I have to ask when the last time someone got ripped on just because they posted something coherent and intelligent about their faith, and not because either the post (or the poster) was just plain stupid.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Faith is believing without reason. Religion is how you organize, implement or ornament that faith.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion, in fact I think it's generally pretty evil for the reasons you stated.

The "faith is a crutch" line is a pretty standard one... do you regard it as any more of a crutch than language, art, or technology?

Interesting you should say "art"... I consider one of my spiritual triggers to be music, both in playing and listening.

Yeah, me too... music is a big one for me, and so is sculpture and poetry.

I know people who don't get much out of art. I guess it doesn't make them feel anything. I've never had a single one tell me I'm an idiot for feeling it though...

[LMNO]

No, but I bet they would if you claimed you were channeling Siva the World-Destroyer through your hands when you sculpt.


See the difference?

[AFK]

I truly disagree with the assessment that PD.COM is trending towards some kind of "aggressive Atheism" as you call it.  Yeah, PD.COM, itself, is a little aggressive by nature, but I've never seen any substantial, focused, and collective movement or flak against someone who talks about what they believe in.  I mean, we had that thread in the PD forum, people were all over the place with what they believed in and unless I'm mistaken it didn't turn into a flame fest.  I guess I just don't see it.  

[LMNO]

The only time I've really felt it was when the SSOOKN got hit hard for talking about kabalah, and that was more than a year ago.

[AFK]

I guess maybe the better question would be, What doesn't get torn apart every now and again on PD.COM? 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think faith can actually be pretty significant influences upon all 3 of those.  I mean, at a certain point, aren't we all relying upon "faith" at some point or another?  Faith that gravity works 100% of the time.  Faith that the sun is always going to be there.  I mean, if you boil it down, I'm not sure you can find anyone who doesn't have some kind of "faith-crutch"

*insert Rat spittle here*

I HOLD NO BELIEF in Gravity. I have had personal experiences all of my life which indicate that Shit falls towards the ground. Ever since I have been able to crawl, my personal experiences indicate that I am not likely to go flying off into outer space. At 9 months, did I believe in gravity? Of course not. Before Newton did people 'have faith in gravity'? No... the issue of 'flying off into outer space' didn't come up. There was simply the experiential data from most people on the planet which someone (Newton!!  ) observed and made some measurements on. One does not need faith in gravity or the sun or anything of the sort. We simply experience life and based on those experiences act. We do not need an 'assured expectation of things not beheld' we simply need experience and the ability to make decisions based off of experience. It seems ludicrous to think we need faith that we won't go spinning off the planet or faith that the Sun'll com up tomorrow, (bethca bottom dollar, that tomorrow, there'll be sun)

This, I think, is important. Without faith and belief, we can perhaps better discuss wonder and spirituality. We can still have critical thought and skepticism. In fact, it seems to me that if we can eject belief and faith, it makes it much easier to play with the universe of things, ordering them and disordering them at will.  I've experienced Gravity. I've also experienced invoking Therion. I don't have beliefs about either one, but I do allow those experiences to inform the decisions I make. For all the map/territory talk we do around here... it seems that sometimes its easy to forget the advice ourselves. All religions/belief systems/etc are maps and menus. Trying to discredit the meal by poking fun at the menu seems as silly as eating the menu and thinking it tastes like a Delmonico Steak; medium-rare.

If there is not faith or belief in things supernatural or things natural equally... if there is only the application of experience and the ability to think for oneself, based on one's own experiences... then it seems that discussions about Tarot or Magic or Spirituality could be held in a much more productive manner.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I guess maybe the better question would be, What doesn't get torn apart every now and again on PD.COM? 

The Bring & Brag section seems fairly immune, for one.

[LMNO]

Do some searching on "The Dreadful Hours" old posts...