Plus, I Got Religion

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ok, now I have to ask when the last time someone got ripped on just because they posted something coherent and intelligent about their faith, and not because either the post (or the poster) was just plain stupid.

A little went down in "Your Body" or whatever it was called, triggered by DK's loathing for Descartes' philosophy of mind/body duality. I've seen it a few times in regards to ritual and Tarot, and I've only been here a little over a year so I would guess that means it happens pretty often.

There's a vicious vein pops up from time to time against people who are not on the board... whenever pagans or Christians are mentioned. That alone is enough to make me leery of posting ANYTHING referencing my spiritual practice. And I have mentioned it in chat... and then spent the next hour trying to defend it. That's the part that bothers me, and as I mentioned in my OP, one of the main reasons I don't often mention it ANYWHERE... I don't like getting sucked into the explain/justify/defend cycle. It's like mentioning masturbation in a chat room full of Catholics. And you know, in some ways it's the same level of personal; for the most part, here or in chat, mentioning that you masturbate wouldn't be TMI, but it would be downright creepy and invasive if people then barraged you with questions about exactly how you masturbate, why you masturbate, and what you think you're getting anything out of it, and expressed their distain and revulsion for it, saying that people who masturbate are weak, misguided, etc.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think the other reason that it isn't discussed here much is because of the freedom people have here to post what they want.  I know that sounds like a paradox, but hear me out.

Let's say a person here posts their belief in the Cosmic Turtle, and let's say that there are 5 other people who agree, and they start a thread discussing the Great Carapace, or whatever.

But then, one or two people counter with, "What is this horseshit!?"

The Turtlites are free to post what they will, and so are the doubters.  No one's going to stop them.

But now, they have to defend their positions, which (as noted above) are indefensible, almost by definition.  Short of igoring the doubters completely, any further discussion becomes impossible; and even then, they'll have to skip over posts filled with mockery by the two doubters.

See what I mean?

All I'm saying is that when the "doubters", (I would not call them that, because they're not doubting anything... they're opposing it) do that, they're proselytizing just as much as when an evangelist christian pops into a conversation about evolution to try to "save" the unbelievers. Most people here would probably not very much enjoy posting on a board that was dominated by Creationists. I think that the overall tone of the board is shifting toward aggressive Atheism, and while the aggressive Atheists will probably be happy if that reduces participation by non-Atheists, I also think it will lead to the same sort of stultifying homogeneity over on Venganza, and a lot of interesting voices and perspectives could be... and, I think, are already being... lost.

And, I mean, if the end result is that POEE or EB&G gets all of the religious traffic, I guess that's just the way it goes. But the thing is, I don't really want to spend all my online time around a bunch of fucking fairy-tale worshippers, either. I like it here. I like the Atheists. I like the way they fucking rip shit apart and make fun of it. Yep. Contradictory? I don't think so. I just think it would be a damn shame if this board became totally dominated by the Atheist perspective. I like a nice balance. I would be the first to tear into some fuckhead who came in here trying to convert the Atheist contingent, and it would be nice if there was a little reciprocity.

It would be SWELL if the inevitable immediate response when someone mentions ritual or spirituality wasn't "WTF THAT SHIT IS ST00PID IT'S FOR SUPERSTITIOUS DUMBASSES WHO BELIEVE IN THE TOOF FAERIE AND NEED A CRUTCH STFU MORON!"

The fervent atheist is as much a follower of blind faith as the religious person he will rail against.

When I was doing the Baby Jesus Show I did a bit of networking with the rational objecter crowd in order to gain a bit of exposure for my films and it really brought this home to me. These guys are every bit as much "fundamentalists" as the fucking Taliban, srsly.

I wouldn't lump this board in that category. I think the folks round here are pretty much the same as myself - we mock, mercilessly, primarily for the mockery itself. It doesn't matter what subject you care to make a post about, if I can see and angle then I'll mock it, for the glory of the lulz. Same goes for anyone else on this board and I expect to be treated the same way. If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

[AFK]

Do some searching on "The Dreadful Hours" old posts...

Beat me to it.  He tells me that he goes home and weeps about that shit you know.   

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No, but I bet they would if you claimed you were channeling Siva the World-Destroyer through your hands when you sculpt.


See the difference?

I was talking about the feelings people can get from art or faith, not the way they organize or classify those feelings.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I guess maybe the better question would be, What doesn't get torn apart every now and again on PD.COM? 

The Bring & Brag section seems fairly immune, for one.

Not IME...

[LMNO]

No, but I bet they would if you claimed you were channeling Siva the World-Destroyer through your hands when you sculpt.


See the difference?

I was talking about the feelings people can get from art or faith, not the way they organize or classify those feelings.

And I was pointing out that posting about the gnosis experience won't get you flamed, but building up an indefensible position about the gnosis experience might.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

What is it exactly that you'd like to see change, Nigel?

I'm still getting the sense that you want everyone here to not mock something you care about and want to discuss, or at least not mock it as hard or as much as they normally would.

I've given up talking about typography and visual design for the most part and directed my thoughts on it into a more receptive audience.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

The difference in these things is that there are concrete arguments against them based on observation and science, whereas the argument against faith basically boils down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No, but I bet they would if you claimed you were channeling Siva the World-Destroyer through your hands when you sculpt.


See the difference?

I was talking about the feelings people can get from art or faith, not the way they organize or classify those feelings.

And I was pointing out that posting about the gnosis experience won't get you flamed, but building up an indefensible position about the gnosis experience might.

Justifiably so, if that indefensible position affects anyone but yourself, or if you're being fucking annoying about it. 

[LMNO]

So, perhaps we should treat posts about spirituality and faith like they were poems?  

That is to say, they are asthetic statements, and shouldn't be subject to deconstruction and criticism?

[P3nT4gR4m]

If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

The difference in these things is that there are concrete arguments against them based on observation and science, whereas the argument against faith basically boils down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid".

You can boil any argument down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid". It's the shit that gets boiled off that appeals to me. That's where the potential lulz reside. "Nuh-uh, that's stupid... because ... insert potd here"

[Cramulus]

What is it exactly that you'd like to see change, Nigel?

I'm still getting the sense that you want everyone here to not mock something you care about and want to discuss, or at least not mock it as hard or as much as they normally would.

I've given up talking about typography and visual design for the most part and directed my thoughts on it into a more receptive audience.

yeah I don't post pix of me LARPing much for similar reasons.

or remember that time AKK posted links to the sites he jerks off at?  



I think the moral of the story is that if you want to talk about something you're sensitive about, you've gotta pick the right angle. Anybody I've seen make any objective claim about spiritual matters has gotten flamed, yes. But reparse the thing in e-prime and much fewer people have a problem.

On this board in particular, I've seen some really out-there beliefs and majiq ritualz pass without mention because they were phrased in really tight e-prime.

I disagree with the claim that this board swinging towards the militant atheist side. I think it was actually a bit more hardlined-materialist  when I joined. I think the tone has gotten more permissive since then. I recall wanting to learn more about Kaballah, and mangrove sending me a lot of info via PM which he didn't want to post on the board. He feared he'd have to deal with justifying everything to everyone, and thereby becoming the personal proxy for any vitriol towards Kaballah. Come to think of it, I've had a number of good religious discussions via PM to avoid the cacophony of the board at large.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

The difference in these things is that there are concrete arguments against them based on observation and science, whereas the argument against faith basically boils down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid".

I agree. Any argument about 'faith' will boil down to "I believe it because I want to". And in the end, that is bullshit (but bullshit makes the flowers grow, and that is beautiful).

However, being able to discuss our 'experiences' in whatever metaphor most usefully describes the experience is not the same thing. So if you say to me, "I have faith in the Native Gods, because some spag in a Teepee told me to." then I would probably have little respect for that (seems like a "My Preacher said" sort of defense. If however, you talked about your personal spiritual experiences, as experienced by you within your neurological system... then I would probably have a great deal of respect for you AND would be very interested in your perception of experience.

[P3nT4gR4m]

If Cain didn't tear me to shreds every time I espose a naive or downright stupid political opinion or LMNO or Kai didn't jump on my case whenever I subscribe to some ridiculous pseudoscience, I'd definitely get a lot less enjoyment from this place.

The difference in these things is that there are concrete arguments against them based on observation and science, whereas the argument against faith basically boils down to "Nuh-uh, that's stupid".

I agree. Any argument about 'faith' will boil down to "I believe it because I want to". And in the end, that is bullshit (but bullshit makes the flowers grow, and that is beautiful).

However, being able to discuss our 'experiences' in whatever metaphor most usefully describes the experience is not the same thing. So if you say to me, "I have faith in the Native Gods, because some spag in a Teepee told me to." then I would probably have little respect for that (seems like a "My Preacher said" sort of defense. If however, you talked about your personal spiritual experiences, as experienced by you within your neurological system... then I would probably have a great deal of respect for you AND would be very interested in your perception of experience.

THIS!

I made a post years ago about meeting god (the actual guy) on a mushroom trip and nobody flamed me for it. The real put-downs on this board are more levelled at followers vs freethinkers and I think that's something we're very close to consensus on.

[LMNO]

I disagree with the claim that this board swinging towards the militant atheist side. I think it was actually a bit more hardlined-materialist  when I joined. I think the tone has gotten more permissive since then. I recall wanting to learn more about Kaballah, and mangrove sending me a lot of info via PM which he didn't want to post on the board. He feared he'd have to deal with justifying everything to everyone, and thereby becoming the personal proxy for any vitriol towards Kaballah. Come to think of it, I've had a number of good religious discussions via PM to avoid the cacophony of the board at large.

Which, in a way, is a good thing.

I mean, if there was something I cared about, and wanted to discuss in a serious, personal way, I'm not sure I would post it on any public forum, much less PD.com.  I would find like-minded people and PM, email, or personal chat.  It's too easy to have a conversation derailed.