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An article I found + resulting ideas

Started by The Littlest Ubermensch, May 03, 2008, 06:35:40 AM

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I think what we have here is a classic case of Mysticism vs Congregationalism.

HAVE YOU PEOPLE FORGOTTEN THE LESSON OF THE GRIDS?

hooplala

"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Cain on May 06, 2008, 04:56:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2008, 06:24:35 PM
Also, really, what Ratatosk said.

To do some parroting of my own, I read once something along the lines of, "Each enlightenment is only good one time, for the person who discovers it". In a way, I think that's really another way of phrasing "think for yourself, Schmuck". Either way, it really stuck with me, and I personally find it a great reminder that what seems profound and important to me may be meaningless for others, and that's ok.

Anyway, I think that if someone finds their own enlightenment in dissemination of information, that's great. On the other hand, if I find myself associated with a group who puts a lot of energy into spreading the word of Discordianism, I will probably not be comfortable with that, and will end the association.

After all, the only thing Seventh-Day Adventists are doing when they go door to door is "informing people of their options".

No they're not.

Thats bullshit and you know it.

Because anyone with half a brain knows Seventh Day Adventists exist.  They know they're there, and that what they may not be sure of what they believe, that they can find out easily.

CLUEPHONE RINGING: most people have never even heard of Discordianism!

Shocking, I know.  But since Discordians are so geographically disparate and so unknown, a campaign to let people know that Discordianism actually exists might actually draw the interest of people who want to know more.

OH MA LAWD!  IS DAT SUM BRAINWASHING?

Your bullshit comparisons don't hold up, because you're comparing radical different groups and ideas.  The average person does not know what a Discordian is, and does not know what they believe.  In such a situation, letting people know Discordianism exists is nothing like what other religious groups do, and find the implication of such an insult.

I think Cain has a good point here. We may underestimate just how "fringe" Discordianism really is.

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 05, 2008, 12:56:11 PM


Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence.


Also, what the fuck is this "vote of confidence" bullshit? What are you trying to say, here? Am I supposed to blindly agree with what someone else says or wants JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DISCORDIAN?

Please explain, I'm really interested.

No, no, that rule only applies to discordian art.

Also, if your discordia isn't pushing your comfort zone, WAYSA?
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Professor Cramulus on May 06, 2008, 02:51:54 AM
I think your concerns are legit, Nigel.

Adam Gorightly (Thornley's biographer) thought that they wanted to engineer the meme in a way that keeps it from generating fanatics. "Convictions cause convicts" and all that.

I'm sure we're all on the same page here. We want to get the word out, but we don't wanna brainwash people.

As it's said on the BIP wiki site:
"The basic math is that the more frequently people develop their critical thinking skills, the better it is for everybody involved."

Thanks, Cram, I'm relieved that I wasn't speaking complete gibberish.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cain on May 06, 2008, 04:44:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 05, 2008, 12:56:11 PM


Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence.


Also, what the fuck is this "vote of confidence" bullshit? What are you trying to say, here? Am I supposed to blindly agree with what someone else says or wants JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DISCORDIAN?

Please explain, I'm really interested.

Well according to you, if we dont keep Discordianism a cliquey in-joke, we're no better than any other sort of religious fundamentalists.

Which is to say, everyone on this forum who has ever talked about getting the idea of Discordianism out there.  This subforum was originally called the Black Iron Prison, which was the name of a piece of work that came out of a project to try and update and increase interest in Discordianism.

So according to you, LMNO, RWHM, myself, Cramulus, LHX etc are no better than the retards at the AA.

And you expect me to be civil to you after that insult?  Fuck off Nigel, you owe most people on here who aren't interested in having their own version of the kewl kidz club an apology.

Oh, please.

I am not talking about keeping it an in-joke. I am talking about the difference between proselytising and indoctrination, and creating and distributing interesting and useful information.

I am absolutely not interested in/excited about "spreading the word" of Discordia as if it were some kind of Universal Truth. I don't believe that it IS a Universal Truth, and in fact I think that as soon as we start treating it like one it loses what truth is has.

You can take that as an accusation that everyone here has been, so far, trying to ram their perception of Truth down other people's throats, or you can take it as a personal reticence in getting involved in anything that looks as if it might start doing do.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cain on May 06, 2008, 04:56:17 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2008, 06:24:35 PM
Also, really, what Ratatosk said.

To do some parroting of my own, I read once something along the lines of, "Each enlightenment is only good one time, for the person who discovers it". In a way, I think that's really another way of phrasing "think for yourself, Schmuck". Either way, it really stuck with me, and I personally find it a great reminder that what seems profound and important to me may be meaningless for others, and that's ok.

Anyway, I think that if someone finds their own enlightenment in dissemination of information, that's great. On the other hand, if I find myself associated with a group who puts a lot of energy into spreading the word of Discordianism, I will probably not be comfortable with that, and will end the association.

After all, the only thing Seventh-Day Adventists are doing when they go door to door is "informing people of their options".

No they're not.

Thats bullshit and you know it.

Because anyone with half a brain knows Seventh Day Adventists exist.  They know they're there, and that what they may not be sure of what they believe, that they can find out easily.

CLUEPHONE RINGING: most people have never even heard of Discordianism!

Shocking, I know.  But since Discordians are so geographically disparate and so unknown, a campaign to let people know that Discordianism actually exists might actually draw the interest of people who want to know more.

OH MA LAWD!  IS DAT SUM BRAINWASHING?

Your bullshit comparisons don't hold up, because you're comparing radical different groups and ideas.  The average person does not know what a Discordian is, and does not know what they believe.  In such a situation, letting people know Discordianism exists is nothing like what other religious groups do, and find the implication of such an insult.

Jesus, you sound like a fucking fanatic.

As if people can't think for themselves without reading the Pricipia? As if people NEED "Discordianism" as we know it to be free, whole, interesting individuals?

Check this out: IT'S JUST A FUCKING CLUB.

Fuck you too, dipshit.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Netaungrot on May 06, 2008, 11:27:02 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 05, 2008, 12:56:11 PM


Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence.


Also, what the fuck is this "vote of confidence" bullshit? What are you trying to say, here? Am I supposed to blindly agree with what someone else says or wants JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DISCORDIAN?

Please explain, I'm really interested.

No, no, that rule only applies to discordian art.

Also, if your discordia isn't pushing your comfort zone, WAYSA?

I like to push my comfort zone in ways that haven't already been tapped out by every other major religion on earth, thanks anyway.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2008, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on May 06, 2008, 11:27:02 PM
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 05, 2008, 12:56:11 PM


Oh, and thanks for the vote of confidence.


Also, what the fuck is this "vote of confidence" bullshit? What are you trying to say, here? Am I supposed to blindly agree with what someone else says or wants JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DISCORDIAN?

Please explain, I'm really interested.

No, no, that rule only applies to discordian art.

Also, if your discordia isn't pushing your comfort zone, WAYSA?

I like to push my comfort zone in ways that haven't already been tapped out by every other major religion on earth, thanks anyway.

OMG THE MANA WAS TAPPED!!!1
  \

  /
I ATTACK WITH SHIVAN DRAGON!!


So did major religions tap out symbolism in paintings too?

Did major religions tap out informing people about the nature of a group?

How about assembling in a group for their intellectual and spiritual growth?

What DIDN'T major religions "tap out"?


I think you made some really nasty assumptions about Cain, by the way.

Where the hell did you get the idea he was advocating spreading "universal truths" and all of this garbage?
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

tyrannosaurus vex

Nigel:

If discordianism works for you, if it has helped you, then maybe there are other people who could benefit too. Maybe those people have never even heard of discordianism. So what's so bad about putting out information that just lets them know there's something out here that they might want to use?

For all your talk about Discordianism being highly individualized (and no better inherently than an individual Discordian), you're doing a good job of pigeonholing and defining it. So what if you're not interested? If you're not interested, then don't bother with this thread. Pretty simple.

As for myself, I like Discordianism not because it is a "religion" that has "saved" me or any such fucking nonsense, but because it's fun and it's one of the few distractions that have a purpose. And it has helped me learn how to take Very Serious Things... less seriously. And save myself some graying hair. And I am interested in presenting that possibility to other people who might also benefit. It isn't about "indoctrination," it's about bringing up possibilities that so many people are so obviously missing.

I'm not really an elitist, so I don't buy into this "if they don't figure it out for themselves then fuck 'em" bullshit. I think if you can help somebody, and if you feel like doing it, then there's no harm. And it can be fun anyway.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Hey JERKS:

All I said is that I'm not down with proselytizing. You have a problem with that?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on May 07, 2008, 09:13:00 AM
Hey JERKS:

All I said is that I'm not down with proselytizing. You have a problem with that?

That would have been fine had that been all you actually said.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Gundam Agriculture

To steal an idea from Illuminatus -- I think it's true that there are some people who are "neophilic" and the vast majority who are "neophobic". 

Sometimes Discordianism is called a "joke religion".  Personally I disagree, but there is one nugget of truth -- I think that, on being exposed to Discordianism for the first time, a person either "gets it" or doesn't.  If you have to explain it, there's never going to understand it.

So as a pragmatic matter, I think proselytizing is useless.  Exposing people to Discordianism is useful, but anything beyond that is useless and IMHO distasteful.
"The Agriculture Ministry is not in charge of Gundam."
- ministry official Tsutomu Shimomura

Eve

Having read through it a few times, I present to you my tl;dr written-on-no-sleep summary of wtf is going on in this thread, because excessive ridiculousness is taking away from the OP and I think it deserves some consideration. Skip if it's too long (which it probably is).. you know the drill.

TLU read an article, brought it here, and raises a good point. A lot of us have expressed interest in sharing Discordian ideas with like-minded people, but lack an effective way to do so. The article suggests that, among other things, organizations that have successfully gotten their message--whatever that message may be--out there have done so by forming smaller sub-groups of up to 150 people or so. Is TLU suggesting that we go door to door like Jehovah's Witnesses? No. Discordianism is not an organized religion like the one featured in the article, and as far as I can tell, nobody is looking for it to be like that. Nevertheless, the point of the thread is to hopefully get some gears turning and ideas flowing.

Some people aren't comfortable utilizing methods that are church-approved and church-used. This is fair, yet doesn't seem to be what TLU is advocating without further explanation (to avoid, I'd think, the misunderstanding that he supports employing methods used by zealous Christian groups to spread Discordian beliefs). As Verbatim points out, these small groups seem to be very similar to the various cabals that many of us are part of. Nigel finds the idea of pushing beliefs and/or values onto others to be distasteful, a sentiment which is legitimate and I think shared by most, but could perhaps have been expressed a bit less aggressively. Others interpret the article/OP differently and suggest that sharing strategies with religious organizations does not automatically mean throwing copies of the PD out at passersby on street corners.

Big wave of miscommunication.. moving on...

Discussion moves back to the cabals and how to make them most effective. Ratatosk explains how the Best-Named Cabal Ever! functions for him and the 25-or-so other members. More angry words.. Verbatim pulls focus back to the original topic and suggests that the construct (little groups) not be overlooked merely because of its current method of implementation (..which is to say, don't ditch it just because churches think it's a good idea). Nigel clarifies her feelings on the matter--cabal, good; group-wide spreading of Discordianism, bad--and Hoopla raises what strikes me as a valid question. Question could stand to be brought over to a similarly blown-out-of-proportion thread... but that's not the point.

The Artist Formerly Known as Roo makes a good point regarding reaching out to people. If we reach out to the right people (and interpret that however you will), maybe it won't seems so much like recruitment. Nigel's concerns prompt Cram to issue a fair reminder: whatever you do and however you do it, fanatics are no good. If you can help it, don't let them happen. Cain also points out that it would be an oversight to evaluate the doings of a large religious organization and those of Discordianism on the same scale; one is a widely recognized and accepted sect of Christianity, while few have heard of--let alone understand--the other.

I think the bottom line is that this is a worthwhile discussion focused on, well, discussion. If the idea of leaping into action worries you, take a deep breath; no one is running out to start shoving BIP pamphlets into mailboxes. The point is thought. Ideas. If you're opposed to that.. maybe it's time to move onto a different thread. My apologies if I appear to be targeting any particular person, or if this ends up leading to *gasp* moar drama. Just wanted to clarify, if only for myself, what's going on here. Overkill? Yeah.. probably. Oh well.
Emotionally crippled narcissist.

hooplala

Quote from: Gundam Agriculture on May 07, 2008, 12:44:03 PMSo as a pragmatic matter, I think proselytizing is useless.  Exposing people to Discordianism is useful, but anything beyond that is useless and IMHO distasteful.

I was under the impression that 'exposing' was all anyone was ever suggesting?

Plus, it sounds dirtier.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman