Craniosacral therapy - woo?

[Bruno]

I'm just disappointed this thread isn't about the therapeutic effects of teabagging. 

[Reginald Ret]

2 things.

Closed systems don't exist.

Cain's tip is very good, Less wrong is a great site for people who like to think deeply about things and aren't afraid to think differently.

[Dildo Argentino]

Both seem to suggest that there is no evidence that this form of treatment works rather than there is evidence that it doesn't work.

Bro, do you even science? What would "evidence that it doesn't work" look like, other than lack of evidence that it does work? WTF??  Please read that sentence again and tell me if you can figure out what's so horribly, horribly wrong with it.

Well, you know...

This is from the 1999 metastudy:
"The available research on craniosacral treatment effectiveness constitutes low-grade evidence conducted using inadequate research protocols."

"Thirty-three studies were identified providing primary data on craniosacral therapy."

This is from the 2012 one:
"Results
Six studies were included. Except for one, all were associated with a high risk of bias. Low quality studies suggested positive effects, while the high-quality trial failed to demonstrate effectiveness."

I can't afford to look at that single study right now, but, as of 2012, 38 studies of variously unacceptable quality that seemed to indicate there was something there, and a single one that failed to indicate anything is not quite conclusive evidence by any reasonable standard of science.

If there were say half a dozen high quality studies all indicating no positive effect: that would be evidence that it doesn't work.

[Dildo Argentino]

Please do also note that the nightly washing of the brain is not merely something that "managed to be missed", but a discovery that is a product of now having the technology to look inside living brains. Being able to observe living processes is a huge advancement in biomedical research.

How long before it is possible to keep that machine on while somebody is undergoing a session of CST?

[Dildo Argentino]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

[Dildo Argentino]

It might help him with the "lack of evidence for does not equal evidence against" line of reasoning, which is true in some cases and false in others.

Could you give me an example of a case in which it is false, please?

[Reginald Ret]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Uhm, Alcoholics train for 8-10 years. Your point?

[Dildo Argentino]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Uhm, Alcoholics train for 8-10 years. Your point?

I wouldn't believe you if you tried to pass yourself off as an alcoholic after your first beer?

I guess it's just that that fraud isn't necessarily involved, the entire organisation may be genuine and possibly mistaken. As I said above, 38 low quality studies indicating positive effect versus 1 higher quality study indicating no positive effect... I would say the jury is still out on that one. Unless somebody comes up with at least a few more high quality studies indicating no positive effect... I will find some time to search for them next week.

[Junkenstein]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Yeah, at what point did I say this service was quick? My Service agreements make Scientologly look downright reasonable.

Look, it's simple: If the mark has given you money once, why not try again? Until they stop. Which seems to take 4-5 years.

I sincerely hope you're implying that they could have become actual medical professionals in that timespan.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It might help him with the "lack of evidence for does not equal evidence against" line of reasoning, which is true in some cases and false in others.

Could you give me an example of a case in which it is false, please?

I did.

I can see that this is going in the "dig my heels in and screech because I want to believe" direction, so I am bowing out for now.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Yeah, at what point did I say this service was quick? My Service agreements make Scientologly look downright reasonable.

Look, it's simple: If the mark has given you money once, why not try again? Until they stop. Which seems to take 4-5 years.

I sincerely hope you're implying that they could have become actual medical professionals in that timespan.

Many kinds of quackery have whole support systems built up around them. People believe in it, so they very seriously study it at great expense for many years. Once you have achieved buy-in -- that is, once someone has invested money in your scheme -- it is remarkably difficult to shift them from the belief that it's genuine. You also see this effect in financial scams, as well as in bad relationships; once people have made a commitment to something, however small, they will have a harder and harder time rejecting it as the commitment grows.

Many religions and marketing departments use this psychological quirk to their benefit, like the timeshare tours that offer a free banquet, or Scientology with their free "personality test".

Look at the tarot card certification scheme, astrology, or homeopathic doctors. People will put a lot of time and money into learning a system that is very thorough and cohesive and takes years to master. The fact that it is also completely made-up and not reflective of the way the world actually works is irrelevant to its ability to achieve buy-in.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here. I haven't read any of these because it's not my area of interest and I don't have time, but this seems like a good start. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=NIH%20craniosacral%20massage

[LMNO]

One interpretation of Kabala is this exactly. You spend years learning these utterly strange rules and associations between letters, numbers, animals, position, color, etc. to the point of mastery. And then it hits you how absurd it all is, your mind breaks, and you see God.

[The Johnny]

If i barf into a bag of cheetos, and then like, eat it again, i get ALL the vitamin c needs and more nutritious meal, because this guy i know, yeah, he told me that our stomach acid is not strong enough to handle processed foods, so if you eat your barf, the second time around it gets easily digested and all the nutrients SPROUT and you absorb them. But when you need to make poopoo you have to hold it in for 8 hours or longer, so that said nutrients have time to get in the intestinal walls, otherwise they escapes and go to waste.

[Doktor Howl]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Well, that's certainly a valid comparison.