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Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the fact that you're at least putting effort into sincerely arguing your points. It's an argument I've enjoyed having. It's just that your points are wrong and your reasons for thinking they're right are stupid.

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Kids want Nobel Prize for science

Started by MMIX, March 13, 2010, 12:03:47 PM

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MMIX

Unfortunately many of them seem woefully underqualified . . .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8565258.stm


QuoteOne in 10 children thinks the Queen invented the telephone, a survey of children's science knowledge suggests.

Others gave credit for the invention to Charles Darwin and Noel Edmonds.

One in 20 of the 1,000 pupils polled thought Star Wars character Luke Skywalker or Richard Branson had been the first to set foot on the Moon.

Some 60% of nine- and 10-year-olds thought Sir Isaac Newton discovered fire, the survey for science campaign Birmingham Science City found.

Despite these misconceptions, more children want to win a Nobel prize for science than the X Factor.

:horrormirth:

QuoteIn fact, nearly 70% of nine and 10-year-olds would like to be famous for winning a Nobel Prize in science, yet this drops to only 33% among 11 to 15-year-olds.

I will never see Newtonian physics in the same way again - or the Queen, come to think of it . . .
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Muir

I think England needs less Religious Education and more of the basics (Reading, Math, Science)
Remember, there are no stupid questions - but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots...

MMIX

Quote from: Muir on March 13, 2010, 05:42:14 PM
I think England needs less Religious Education and more of the basics (Reading, Math, Science)

I don't think it would help much, actually. I mean, they don't seem to turn out usefully religious either . . .
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I think I found the problem:

Quote from: MMIX on March 13, 2010, 12:03:47 PM
Some 60% of nine- and 10-year-olds thought Sir Isaac Newton discovered fire, the survey for science campaign Birmingham Science City found.

They should ask the same kids again in three to four years, when they're developmentally capable of remembering such facts, and have actually been taught them.

Seriously, we are talking about ages where they are really still working on reading and writing. History and science is not usually taught in any meaningful manner until 7th or 8th grade, and even then there are such vast areas to cover they may not get around to memorizing the names of historically significant individuals until later in high school. Even if the material has been covered once at an age-appropriate level, it takes a great deal of repetition to be able to store and recall on demand, especially at that age level.

In other words, that survey is utterly meaningless.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Also, is this form:
QuoteEight out of 10 boys correctly identified Alexander Graham Bell as the inventor of the telephone, compared with 69% of girls.
...considered grammatically correct in the UK? I noticed that the author did it twice, and I was going to make fun of it but then I wondered if our rules for internal consistency don't apply over there.


"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


MMIX

Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 13, 2010, 09:20:42 PM
Also, is this form:
QuoteEight out of 10 boys correctly identified Alexander Graham Bell as the inventor of the telephone, compared with 69% of girls.
...considered grammatically correct in the UK? I noticed that the author did it twice, and I was going to make fun of it but then I wondered if our rules for internal consistency don't apply over there.


Yes it is perfectly correct English - like what the English speak, y'know - I can't imagine how it could be said differently. How would you say it; and yes, as soon as I hear it I'll probably kick myself for having to ask.
I suspect you didn't read the article because it covered kids between the last year of junior school [9/10] and the last compulsory year of senior school [15 year olds] I don't think it is aiming to be a definitive study and relates only to 1000 kids polled on behalf of Birmingham Science City

Quote"a region-wide partnership which showcases the strengths in research and development in science, technology and engineering in the West Midlands region"

I always find this kind of survey intriguing if only because of the inordinate amount of time I spent in Uni learning how to devise "better" surveys. If nothing else this one seems indicate that despite the current levels of hothouse exposure to the internet the info soundbite is still beating off in-depth information.


/tongue in cheek
American English has internal rules of consistency ??? Who knew . . .  :wink:
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: MMIX on March 13, 2010, 09:59:55 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 13, 2010, 09:20:42 PM
Also, is this form:
QuoteEight out of 10 boys correctly identified Alexander Graham Bell as the inventor of the telephone, compared with 69% of girls.
...considered grammatically correct in the UK? I noticed that the author did it twice, and I was going to make fun of it but then I wondered if our rules for internal consistency don't apply over there.


Yes it is perfectly correct English - like what the English speak, y'know - I can't imagine how it could be said differently. How would you say it; and yes, as soon as I hear it I'll probably kick myself for having to ask.

We would retain internal consistency by using either numerals OR words in a single phrase; "Nine and ten-year-olds" OR "9 and 10-year-olds", and "Eight out of ten" OR "8 out of 10".

I didn't read the whole article because I was really distracted by the way it was written, sorry.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


MMIX

Oh now I see what you mean - lol. I usually regard myself as a nitpicker's nitpicker about grammar and such but apparently I don't regard numbers as problematic. It is sloppy but not incorrect grammatically. Sort of like changing to a different font - not big and not clever but not grammatically incorrect. I'm not surprised that the BBC site threw you out, the modern Beeb just not as anally correct as it was before 24hr news and on-line presence. Plus, on a bad day, it seems to staffed by people who still think that the Queen invented the phone and Newton discovered fire . . .
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Jasper

It seems to be more of a stylistic faux pas. 

Anyhow yeah the kids polled are too young to know that stuff, and I for one know that when a poll that doesn't affect my grades allows me to make absurd choices like that, I often do so.  I could totally see my 12 (or 40) year old self claiming that Newton invented fire just to be silly.

MMIX

Good point but, of course, you have to actually know that Newton didn't invent apples fire for the joke to work.
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Rococo Modem Basilisk

I can't imagine any nine to ten year old, regardless of education level, believing that Newton invented fire. I could easily imagine them claiming that Newton invented gravity. That said, if it was laid out in terms of "who discovered the following; circle all that apply" I could imagine a nine or ten year old assuming that there was a correct answer for 'fire' and choosing the oldest guy.

Then again, in sixth grade I wrote on a test that Karl Marx was a comedian.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

MMIX

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on March 14, 2010, 02:18:39 AM
I can't imagine any nine to ten year old, regardless of education level, believing that Newton invented fire. I could easily imagine them claiming that Newton invented gravity. That said, if it was laid out in terms of "who discovered the following; circle all that apply" I could imagine a nine or ten year old assuming that there was a correct answer for 'fire' and choosing the oldest guy.

Then again, in sixth grade I wrote on a test that Karl Marx was a comedian.

Well Karl Marx was a comedian - what was your point again . . .
"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently" David Graeber

Rococo Modem Basilisk

I thought he was one of the Marx brothers.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on March 14, 2010, 02:18:39 AM
I can't imagine any nine to ten year old, regardless of education level, believing that Newton invented fire. I could easily imagine them claiming that Newton invented gravity. That said, if it was laid out in terms of "who discovered the following; circle all that apply" I could imagine a nine or ten year old assuming that there was a correct answer for 'fire' and choosing the oldest guy.

Then again, in sixth grade I wrote on a test that Karl Marx was a comedian.

Out of curiosity I asked my ten-year-old son whether Isaac Newton invented fire, and he said "I don't have an answer for that because I really have no idea". Then I asked my twelve-year-old daughter whether Isaac Newton invented fire, and she laughed and gave me a two-minute lecture on how no human invented fire; early man knew about fire as a naturally-occurring event and no one knows who actually discovered how to make fire. Then I asked her who Isaac Newton was, and she had no idea. So I asked her if they have covered any physics courses in school, and she said no, but that maybe they have covered some rudimentary precursors to physics.

Frankly, in sixth grade I am pretty sure they are still working on basic algebra. Introducing physics at that point would be merely for fun and elementary principles, not for scholarly facts and figures.

Those two answers told me essentially what I wanted to know about their developmental stages and educational experience, which was that it is kind of ridiculous to claim science education is a failure by surveying elementary and middle school kids for their knowledge of high-school topics.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Jasper

PCC offers "conceptual physics" with no math requirements, but I know someone who took it and it has fairly advanced algebra in it.  Still, she could audit the class for self-enrichment purposes..?