Are we more depressed because we're getting smarter?

[minuspace]

Our experience of freedom has been masked and concealed to only reveal what our "masters" allow us to consider.  Then we take it personally when we do not perform according to our now internalized limitations.   Has me banging my head against the wall sometimes.  It's like a paradox in which I resign myself to getting out of my own way in order to actually approach myself.

An interesting documentary about that was made by a guy named Adam Curtis called "The Trap". It has three parts, with each one around an hour a piece but I would say it's worth a watch. Basically, it suggests in the first two parts that people have had limited conceptions of each other as simply "rational" beings, (which I would go so far as to say is hilariously misguided) that was caused in part due to game theory as an academic/economic discipline. I'm probably botching the synopsis, but the third part goes on to say that there is a split between "positive" and "negative" liberty. Positive liberty is the right to do things and "live up to your full potential" garbage while negative liberty is the freedom to NOT be restrained or constrained by the government. It goes on to suggest that positive liberty HAS to be suppressed because it inevitably leads to a revolution. I don't like his conclusion, because he says that it DOESN'T have to lead to revolution. I don't see why it shouldn't lead to a revolution, because "f**k the system!" and all dat jazz.

What I said in my other post, however, may very well negate any kind of depression "epidemic". Depression is just as subjective a phenomena as is self esteem, based on how a person says he or she feels most or all of the time. It's easy to see everyone on Facebook having a bias towards posting positive things that they don't hear about how sh*tty the rest of the other users' lives are.

Yea, I totally enjoyed that doc. even though it still suffered from the kind of thinking it was trying to overcome.

W.r.t. "epidemic" - I agree, self-esteem is not a good metric for a whole shit-ton of reasons.  At the root of it, the problem is not a measure of esteem.  The problem is how easily we are distracted from the understanding of ourselves existing prior to a definition of freedom that is either positive or negative (re. above).  A question of esteem is also only the result of having lost self-respect.  All signals of a systemic problem.

[zackli]

Our experience of freedom has been masked and concealed to only reveal what our "masters" allow us to consider.  Then we take it personally when we do not perform according to our now internalized limitations.   Has me banging my head against the wall sometimes.  It's like a paradox in which I resign myself to getting out of my own way in order to actually approach myself.

An interesting documentary about that was made by a guy named Adam Curtis called "The Trap". It has three parts, with each one around an hour a piece but I would say it's worth a watch. Basically, it suggests in the first two parts that people have had limited conceptions of each other as simply "rational" beings, (which I would go so far as to say is hilariously misguided) that was caused in part due to game theory as an academic/economic discipline. I'm probably botching the synopsis, but the third part goes on to say that there is a split between "positive" and "negative" liberty. Positive liberty is the right to do things and "live up to your full potential" garbage while negative liberty is the freedom to NOT be restrained or constrained by the government. It goes on to suggest that positive liberty HAS to be suppressed because it inevitably leads to a revolution. I don't like his conclusion, because he says that it DOESN'T have to lead to revolution. I don't see why it shouldn't lead to a revolution, because "f**k the system!" and all dat jazz.

What I said in my other post, however, may very well negate any kind of depression "epidemic". Depression is just as subjective a phenomena as is self esteem, based on how a person says he or she feels most or all of the time. It's easy to see everyone on Facebook having a bias towards posting positive things that they don't hear about how sh*tty the rest of the other users' lives are.

Yea, I totally enjoyed that doc. even though it still suffered from the kind of thinking it was trying to overcome.

W.r.t. "epidemic" - I agree, self-esteem is not a good metric for a whole shit-ton of reasons.  At the root of it, the problem is not a measure of esteem.  The problem is how easily we are distracted from the understanding of ourselves existing prior to a definition of freedom that is either positive or negative (re. above).  A question of esteem is also only the result of having lost self-respect.  All signals of a systemic problem.

I'm not clear what you mean by the part in bold. Are you suggesting you don't like it because it says that positive liberty can or can not proceed without inevitably leading to a revolution? The thinking it was trying to overcome was that it was impossible to proceed without a revolution, and the conclusion was that it CAN proceed without a revolution. I don't like it because it says that it can proceed without a revolution. I don't necessarily think there should be one, but I think it is important to consider the evidence against that conclusion before unanimously declaring it possible.

As far as the rest of it goes, in the paper I cited in my other response there was another general tendency noted for some people to be more biased negatively in their responses to everything and some people were more biased positively. That would also need to be taken into consideration before any depression or self esteem scale was to be taken seriously. That paper, while a bit lengthy at 41 pages, was actually fascinating in what it had to say. I highly suggest reading it if you like that sort of thing. It's easily accessible via Google in full. Also, "The Social Importance of Self-Esteem", which is the paper that sort of preceded the self-esteem task force in California is fascinating in its implications for society combined with the lack of substance so far as evidence towards its conclusion is concerned.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Depression is not low self esteem.

[minuspace]

Penny: it's true, though they may be correlated

Zackly:  I enjoyed the series, however, I can't say it left me with a sense of levity.  I think I wanted and/or was expecting it to be more uplifting in the long run.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

related?

[minuspace]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

related?

My immediate reaction was to differentiate accuracy and truth.

[zackli]

Depression is not low self esteem.

Yes, brilliant.

Do you know how the two are diagnosed?

Simple self esteem questionnaire:
http://www.counseling.ufl.edu/cwc/uploads/docs/Sorensen_Self-Esteem_Test.pdf

Simple depression questionnaire:
http://phqscreeners.com/pdfs/02_PHQ-9/English.pdf

If you can not see the similarities, please let me know and I will be more explicit with my condescension and sarcastic remarks.

[Junkenstein]

Oh please, explain. I've not had a good laugh all day.

[Raz Tech]

Depression is not low self esteem.

Yes, brilliant.

Do you know how the two are diagnosed?

Simple self esteem questionnaire:
http://www.counseling.ufl.edu/cwc/uploads/docs/Sorensen_Self-Esteem_Test.pdf

Simple depression questionnaire:
http://phqscreeners.com/pdfs/02_PHQ-9/English.pdf

If you can not see the similarities, please let me know and I will be more explicit with my condescension and sarcastic remarks.

If you actually think mental issues are diagnosed using short questionnaires, please let me know and I will be more explicit with my condescension and sarcastic remarks.

[LMNO]

Depression is not low self esteem.

Yes, brilliant.

Do you know how the two are diagnosed?

Simple self esteem questionnaire:
http://www.counseling.ufl.edu/cwc/uploads/docs/Sorensen_Self-Esteem_Test.pdf

Simple depression questionnaire:
http://phqscreeners.com/pdfs/02_PHQ-9/English.pdf

If you can not see the similarities, please let me know and I will be more explicit with my condescension and sarcastic remarks.

If you actually think mental issues are diagnosed using short questionnaires, please let me know and I will be more explicit with my condescension and sarcastic remarks.

I believe that in the Industry, this is known as "win-win".

[Junkenstein]

We're being a little harsh.

After all, short questionnaires written by clowns have told me my favourite colour, which circle of hell I'm heading to and many other things which are obviously accurate and life changing.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Is he still too new for me to call a shitheel?

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

i believe it was a 50 post rule back in the seas of time.

[Junkenstein]

I've personally revised my stance to around 5 posts. It's usually pretty obvious which way it's going by that point.

[minuspace]

And there I was thinking a common ground could be something other than sarcasm.