Opinions about the vote?
It isn't looking good right now, but the big population centers haven't been tallied yet.
Either way, this is fascinating for a dumb American historian.
Eh, preliminary samples of voting, at least in my country's experience, is a way of slanting the undecided population towards a certain decision by peer pressure; i read in some article that around 40% of the voters were "undecided" as of yesterday night or todays morning.
No decision is hardly a surprise to anyone, though I was expecting it to be a little closer than it turned out to be.
Personally, I've hated most of it, for the entire time it's gone on. Mainly because of Nationalists. It has seemed to me that if you're not dealing with a petty one (and the SNP share more than a few traits with, say, UKIP) you're dealing with a slightly differently petty one who really cares about the size of their home nation state.
But as always when you give an aging population the choice between the dickheads they know and the dickheads they don't, they choose the familiar idiocy every time.
One thing it did highlight was how much the main political parties share in common, i.e - being rather conservative. Not that I'm implying the SNP are somehow magically more competent (they aren't) but at least they've got a relatively progressive idea of society. I'm reasonably confident that one of the main reasons for a no vote was Salmond himself. He was never the best choice for something like this, but like many things in life shit isn't done by the best, most suited and competent person, it's done by the clown with an ego and power issues.
Anyway, it's all over now, everyone can go back to not giving a shit about Scotland, Ignoring Wales and getting twitchy when those Irish fellas ask about their referendum.
On the plus side, close result suggests the media is losing control of our minds. Back in 79 we obeyed almost unanimously.
On the negative side - Fracking the entire central belt and those WMD's are still in the clyde
Glass half full/empty - next round of austerity cuts will mean no healthcare but also less police so I'm a bit more free to have fun
If I had to choose between staying in a United Kingdom run by Cameron, or joining an indepenent Scotland run by Salmond, I'd choose to punch myself in the balls for all eternity.
It'd have much the same result as either of the other choices, but at least I'd be stripping myself of the illusion of a meaningful alternative to the experience.
That's not a million miles away from my eventual stance.
I wasn't actually eligible to vote but I had have been, I doubt I could have brought myself to actually vote either way.
Indy vote would have meant I had some say in which glove puppet spewed corporate agenda at us every four years.
At least this means I don't have to vote any more. First time yesterday and it was boring as hell. Would need a free bar and some strippers to keep me interested in democracy :argh!:
On the bright side, here in America, prices on Scotch aren't going to change. However, if we can coax you with statehood, we can promise an exit from insane right wing nationalist parties, because yours make the Tea Party look like kindergartners.
Not really any incentive, given that we don't really engage with the nazis down south. They may be dumb but that doesn't mean they don't know exactly what would happen if they were to set foot on our soil. All the rest is just laughing at EDL skinheads on teevee and taking sweepstakes on how long it'll be before they set up death camps for all the brown people then starve to death because there's no one left to cook their staple diet of kebabs and biryani.
QuoteAnyway, it's all over now, everyone can go back to not giving a shit about Scotland, Ignoring Wales and getting twitchy when those Irish fellas ask about their referendum.
This, totally. But what is a "Wale"?
Quote from: BadBeast on September 19, 2014, 03:41:51 PM
QuoteAnyway, it's all over now, everyone can go back to not giving a shit about Scotland, Ignoring Wales and getting twitchy when those Irish fellas ask about their referendum.
This, totally. But what is a "Wale"?
That's the guy in the pub that sometimes starts barking and trying to bite people.
It probably seems kinda funny to an outsider, given the reputation of Scotland and Northern Ireland...but as a rule, skinheads, fascists and nazis tend to be unionists (and Protestants), and do not flourish well in such climates. Combat18 once tried setting up cells in Belfast, but, well, the Provos got wind of them and that was that. The play-believe stormtroopers generally do poorly against anyone who can actually fight back, be that Celtic fans or Republican terrorists armed with drills.
Quote from: Cain on September 19, 2014, 03:46:32 PM
It probably seems kinda funny to an outsider, given the reputation of Scotland and Northern Ireland...but as a rule, skinheads, fascists and nazis tend to be unionists (and Protestants), and do not flourish well in such climates. Combat18 once tried setting up cells in Belfast, but, well, the Provos got wind of them and that was that. The play-believe stormtroopers generally do poorly against anyone who can actually fight back, be that Celtic fans or Republican terrorists armed with drills.
Totally, this. Britain may have it's totalitarian political biases, but fascism isn't one that ever sat well with people. It may be something to do with the way we stood virtually alone against the Nazis in the early years of WWII, but I think it goes further back than that. It's possibly got something to do with our decision to re-instate a constitutional Monarchy after Cromwell, rather than take the option of being a Republic. Even the symbolism and iconology of our Heraldic heritage is decidedly lacking when it comes to double headed eagles, lightning bolts, fasces and other such revered symbols of fascist movements. It might even go back to our breakaway from Catholicism under Henry VIII. Or even further, the last fascist rulers of Britain were the Romans, and even they had trouble keeping the population in order. We were the only Roman province where Rome felt the need to keep a constant Military occupation throughout their "rule" here.
Cameron is playing a hell of a blinder here.
He's managing to use Scottish "devo max" options to purse an English only Parliamentary option...basically, only English MPs can vote on English issues.
For non-Brits, what this means is that the staunchly left-wing Scotland, and its MPs (mostly from the Labour Party) will have no say over English votes, giving the Tories a de facto Parliamentary majority on all English political issues.
If this passes, Cameron will effectively turn England into a one-party state. And that party will be the Tory Party.
Isn't that effectively what Harold Wilson's Labour Govt did at the end of the 1970s? (Making the 1979 election a one horse Tory race) Also, what the following Tory Govt did in the run-up to Blair's "New Labour" Campaign? (Making Blair seem like a good, fresh option)
The Tactic seems to have been adopted by the Republicans under GWB too. Being such a shitty, unpopular, and inept administration that the opposition inevitably gets in, and has to either adopt the policies left behind, or spend their whole term trying to clean up the mess . . .
eta: My point being that England effectively becomes a "one party state" in the run-up to every general election . . .
No, although I take your point.
The thing is, this gives the Tories a structural majority in UK politics because once you remove the Welsh and Scottish seats, no other party has any chance of outdoing the Tory Party, even if they lose all their seats which are not considered safe seats.
It means unless there is a massive shift in UK voting habits, the Tories will be in power for the forseeable future in England. Even if they do not win at a General Election, they will still control English politics.
Sadly I think you're right. And Labour aren't even fit to field a decent opposition at the moment. I think Boris will replace Cameron too, and that's like . . . . out of the frying pan, into the frying pan.
Be fair. Going with Boris is closer to beating yourself in the face with the frying pan full of scalding oil.
I'm leaning towards him not ending up as PM (Too much dirt, too many inclined to sharpen hatchets should he reach that high) but some form of political power is assured if the cretin is told he'll be assuming it. The other side is that there are others who are, shall we say, more affordable options? If I was paying for a PM, I can think of others who would be very grateful of donations and it's a depressingly small number required to fuck with an election.
Money's still on a Labour/Ukip coalition next time anyway. It's stupid enough to happen and doesn't seem any less likely than other possible results.
Quote from: Junkenstein on September 20, 2014, 11:21:13 PM
Be fair. Going with Boris is closer to beating yourself in the face with the frying pan full of scalding oil.
I certainly won't be "going with Boris", I just wouldn't put it past the UK electorate to pick him over either A/Cameron (To lead the Tories in the next election)
or B/ To pick him over any Labour / Labour coalition with Milliband at the helm.
FTR, I've never participated in any electoral / democratic process in all the 30+ years I've been eligible to vote, and I don't see anyone on the political horizon that inspires me to do anything other than throw bottles of piss at the whole UK democracy gameshow . Fortunately, I've managed to develop some measure of impulse control, or I'd be typing this on a smartphone smuggled into my Prison cell via someone's colon. The whole process seems more and more like an invitation to paddle through a sewer, and pick the shiniest turd that floats past every time. And the more it gets dressed up as the tinkling of a pristine mountain stream, the less I want to dip a toe into it.
I don't have any alternative political solution to the whole mess, and I'm not naive enough to try and convince people to revolt, or take to the streets, (I know how that ends up every time, and have the scars to prove it) so all I can do, is refuse to participate. It's a shit game anyway, and no-one ever wins. If voting could change things for the better, then why hasn't it already done so?
But despite all that, I still remain optimistic about human nature. Futile, perhaps, but it beats letting it depress the very last breath from me. (which is the only alternative)
QuoteI don't have any alternative political solution to the whole mess, and I'm not naive enough to try and convince people to revolt, or take to the streets,
Well to be fair, with society as it currently stands suggesting people get outside can be construed as attempting to start a riot or somesuch and can now get you thrown in the klink.
Beyond that, I can't help but agree with your voting stance. Mine is much the same.
I suppose part of that is due to any government here being effectively the Emperors new clothes. The important contracts for everything are long agreed and usually run longer than any incumbent government, or proper threats/bribes given to ensure continuity of service. There's no logical reason on the planet to continue to award work to Crapita, yet it occurs regularly.
When your government is reduced to a particular pie faced cretin or another cretin who resembles Ham, you're just playing the popularity contest. If UK politicians actually had any real power, they'd legislate it out of their hands in moments. What they are there for, and all they do, is create laws of the moment reacting to situation X and provide a focal point of hate for those shafted by the policies implemented. All the opposition must do is point and say "Badwrong" until it's their turn. The only reason there's been anything to discuss at all with UK politics is that the Lib dems were never meant to be involved, same goes for UKIP. With the two man con disrupted there's a lot of people pissed that they'll have to start the pantomime with a new partner.
I may be wrong. There may be UK politicians who aren't total scum. Couldn't name a single one though. At the moment it seems many are trying for EDL membership with all this gibbering of English rights.