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Does the VW fiasco qualify as a conspiracy?

Started by LMNO, September 24, 2015, 04:50:32 PM

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LMNO

I mean, it ain't a mistake. It took intricate and complex coding to pull it off, and an engineer wouldn't have done it proactively, because it's obviously and objectively designed to break the law.

So, you'd have to have a LOT of people involved, with fairly extensive knowledge of what was going on. But this wasn't exposed because someone talked; it was discovered by an independent investigation. Which means everyone had to keep their fucking mouths shut, which approaches the inconceivable, if the old adage that anything involving more than five people becomes unstable is true.

I dunno, the fact they almost got away with it fascinates me.


Don Coyote

I'm going to go with "yes." It seems to me that using "conspire" as the word for the collective actions would be very appropriate.

Also, fuck them. I had been eyeballing a TDI A3 for years.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: LMNO on September 24, 2015, 04:50:32 PM
I mean, it ain't a mistake. It took intricate and complex coding to pull it off, and an engineer wouldn't have done it proactively, because it's obviously and objectively designed to break the law.

So, you'd have to have a LOT of people involved, with fairly extensive knowledge of what was going on. But this wasn't exposed because someone talked; it was discovered by an independent investigation. Which means everyone had to keep their fucking mouths shut, which approaches the inconceivable, if the old adage that anything involving more than five people becomes unstable is true.

I dunno, the fact they almost got away with it fascinates me.

What are you talking about?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Don Coyote

The VW emissions scandal.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/22/analysis-deception-fuels-volkswagen-emissions-scandal/72608782/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-after-emissions-cheating-scandal-spreads/2015/09/23/6b09e540-6203-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

In short, VW had their "clean diesel" engines running software that when undergoing an emissions test would enter clean engine mode to pass the test but otherwise put out something like 40x the allowed nitrogen oxide.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Don Coyote on September 24, 2015, 05:11:17 PM
The VW emissions scandal.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/22/analysis-deception-fuels-volkswagen-emissions-scandal/72608782/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-after-emissions-cheating-scandal-spreads/2015/09/23/6b09e540-6203-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

In short, VW had their "clean diesel" engines running software that when undergoing an emissions test would enter clean engine mode to pass the test but otherwise put out something like 40x the allowed nitrogen oxide.

Yeah, that's definitely a criminal conspiracy.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Holy shit, that's pretty intense. I can't help wondering why they would run a risk so great. I mean, what was that cost/benefit conversation like? "So if we do this it could ruin the company, but we might be able to get away with it"?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Next question being, are other companies doing the same, or similarly nefarious, things?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


LMNO

It would be absolutely stunning if other companies were doing it, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

It's been floated that they thought they could get away with it because the software that does this is considered intellectual property, and therefore secret (the source code is not available).  This was only discovered because someone did a real world test.

Da6s

I'm waiting to see the impact this has on their new-ish plant in Chattanooga, that's brought about a lot of jobs to an area that sorely needed it.
We appear to be doomed by our DNA to repeat the same destructive behaviors our forebears have repeated for millenia. If anything our problem solving skills have actually diminished with the advent of technology & our ubiquitous modern conveniences. & yet despite our predisposition towards fear-driven hostility; towards what we anachronistically term primitive behavior another instinct is just as firmly encoded in our make-up. We are capable as our ancestors were of incredible breathtaking acts of kindness. Every hour of every day a man risks his life at a moments notice to save another. Forget for a moment the belligerent benevolent billionaires who grant the unfortunate a crumb of costfree cake. I speak of pure acts of selflessness. A Mother who rushes into the street to save a child from a speeding vehicle. A person who runs into a burning building to reach a family trapped on the upper story. Such actions,such moments,such unconscious selfless decisions,define what it is to be human

The Wizard Joseph

Heard about this on NPR today. The CEO is stepping down and "taking responsibility" but not taking the blame as a conspirator. I thought I heard something like $18bn in potential fines spanning several nations and empowered international NGOs.
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LMNO

Plus, massive recalls and heavily gouging resale value.

The Good Reverend Roger

The Germans are gonna have their arses for breakfast if any of these got sold in Germany.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.

It makes the CIA look like amateurs.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.

It makes the CIA look like amateurs.

Well, the main thing would be keeping the programmers' mouths shut. 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2015, 02:03:37 AM
I saw some rough estimates of how many people would have to be involved, at minimum, for this to work.

It makes the CIA look like amateurs.

Thanks to you, that's one of the first things that crossed my mind. How did they do it? Engineers aren't usually known for their allegiance to the corporate hierarchy.