If you assholes insist on turning PD.com into a forum about feminism...

[East Coast Hustle]

...here are some thoughts. Perhaps they can even be considered a rough sort of guideline for whether or not your thread is going to be a productive one.

It's like this: when Nigel or Pixie starts a dialogue about feminism stuff, I feel like I almost always learn something, and that I am being talked to like a human being who is expected to have the moral fortitude to examine my own actions AND to speak up or act when confronted with the actions of others that perpetuate the problem. When Garbo or SP talks about it, I feel like not only am I being talked to like I'm just some rapist-in-waiting, but that I'm being preached at by a TRUE BELIEVER and those, regardless of their cause, automatically push the "OK, time to be a difficult assclown until this Uniform shuts up and goes away" button. So yeah, I perfectly understand the point about men having this weird entitlement issue about deserving a woman's attention for no other reason than having visited their own unsolicited attention on a woman and I think it's creepy and obnoxious and that changing that attitude would maybe go a long way towards preventing eventual more serious aggressive behavior. I understand most (but probably not all) of the points that are raised in the feminism-related threads. And I agree with alot of it at a fundamental level. But no power in the universe can make me want to continue the dialogue in the face of the above-mentioned behavior. But hey, it's not like 50% of the fucking world's population are men, right? So why bother acting in a manner that makes them feel included and like part of the solution?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't find Garbo to be deliberately antagonistic, just easily frustrated when people aren't understanding what she's saying.

Of course, the proper thing to do at that point is examine WHY the ideas aren't going through, but that's hard to step back and do when your beliefs seem to be getting poked.

I do agree, though, that there's a uniform forming around this topic, to some degree.

[East Coast Hustle]

Deliberate or not, her frame of reference on the subject seems to be rooted in a rather extreme view of things. But I'm not interested in psychoanalyzing anyone, I'm just using it as an example of what I'm talking about.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think it really sucks when real conversation and a drive toward understanding and unity get lost in antagonism and personality clashes. It also bums me out, although it's natural, when only the most extreme positions in a debate get a response, and the reasonable ones are passed over without comment.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.

Not with me.  I don't tend to lump anyone together in these things.  You have a reasoned approach that leads to excessive NIGELING, and that hurts my butt.  Garbo has a lot of good ideas, but gets frustrated easily.  Pixie says some awesome shit, but she's still finding her way around the subject.  Signora Paesor is looking for a fight.  ECH isn't going to take anyone's shit, Vex says some good stuff, but can't seem to help antagonistic "jokes".  Me, I'm just a befuddled biped who limps along trying to keep up.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.

[Juana]

I'm sorry you feel like I'm talking to you that way, ECH. It's not intentional and I'm wondering how specifically I'm coming across that way. I know I tend to get snappish when I feel like people aren't listening, but I didn't think anything I said could come across that way.

Deliberate or not, her frame of reference on the subject seems to be rooted in a rather extreme view of things. But I'm not interested in psychoanalyzing anyone, I'm just using it as an example of what I'm talking about.

Explain? Because I'm not (unsurprisingly) seeing it.

[Luna]

I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.

This.

[Bu🤠ns]

FWIW, I'm learning a lot from these threads but at some points it gets gets difficult wading through the noise to get to the good stuff.  I'm not bitching about it as I understand the nature of the place but on a practical level, it can be challenging.  And like, I find myself reading through a lot of the derails hoping at some point it'll become valuable...as it has a couple of times...but then an hour goes by and I think, "what's the point?"

Roger, I notice you will objectively outline your perspective on a derail from time to time and I think that helps pull the conversation back to a constructive progression...and i appreciate that.  I'll end up giving up on a thread, skipping forward to a post like that and then continue on. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.

I'm not seeing "sides".  I'm seeing "poor communication", as everyone shouts past each other.  This is caused by people reading what they EXPECT the other person to say, rather than what the other person actually said.

And that is indeed a problem.

[hooplala]

I too am learning a lot from the threads in question, though I have largely refrained from commenting in them.  Having stated that, I agree with ECH's opening post 100%.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.

Not with me.  I don't tend to lump anyone together in these things.  You have a reasoned approach that leads to excessive NIGELING, and that hurts my butt.  Garbo has a lot of good ideas, but gets frustrated easily.  Pixie says some awesome shit, but she's still finding her way around the subject.  Signora Paesor is looking for a fight.  ECH isn't going to take anyone's shit, Vex says some good stuff, but can't seem to help antagonistic "jokes".  Me, I'm just a befuddled biped who limps along trying to keep up.

You do ok.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.

Yes. Well, I have noticed a definite emergence of a tendency for people to act as if there are "sides", and one of the hallmarks of that is quoting one person's post but actually arguing against something someone else entirely said. When we get to the point where we're all interchangeable, there's no point in continuing.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.

Yes. Well, I have noticed a definite emergence of a tendency for people to act as if there are "sides", and one of the hallmarks of that is quoting one person's post but actually arguing against something someone else entirely said. When we get to the point where we're all interchangeable, there's no point in continuing.

The tragedy from my perspective is that nobody at PD would be considered antifeminism from any reasonable standpoint, but sometimes the arguments reach the kind of fevered pitch that would normally only be appropriate between a person who supports feminism and a person who supports the patriarchy outright. There are always going to be differences in opinion and approach, because there are differences in experience and understanding. We should pride ourselves on our ability to bridge those gaps in a meaningful way, not our ability to expound upon them at great length.

For my part, I'm staying away from the Feminism Per Se discussion, because I made a fool of myself typing a lot of words from a place of misunderstanding and crude assumption before, and I need to learn a lot more about the subject before I pretend to have anything like a "position" on the matter. And I'll learn a lot more by listening than by firing a barrage of my own ideas at people who already have a hard enough time being heard.

For the record I don't think anyone's trying to turn PD into a forum about feminism any more than it is a forum about politics or the humanities. Feminism is a recurring theme lately, but it isn't a transformative theme. Maybe Feminism is the next subject PD is working on. It snuck up like the BIP did, after all, and I think an entire class of people who are still treated as second class citizens in many ways is as good a subject for this board to work out as any of the other subjects we work out. That it arouses almost violent reactions among us is a good thing, I think, as long as we all remember nobody is fighting for The Other Side, we're just fighting to understand each other.