http://www.Luka-Magnotta.com
How do we know if everything we are experiencing is just a dream. That a civilizaton 300 years from now arent controlling us and we are nothing more then a computer program?
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc449/vampiressexy1/Luka-Magnotta-gay-vampire.jpg)
Luka Magnotta
eyebrows
The food would taste better.
Something's not right here.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/270417/strange-but-true/luka-magnotta-is-the-youtube-kitten-killer.html/
http://ohinternet.com/Luka_Rocco_Magnotta
Hrm...
Impersonator, fan or the nutjob himself.
I suppose time will tell.
Just checked. this darkpheonix is definitely that guy.
Who the hell is that douche?
Attention seeker.
Would like you to believe he is a bisexual model/porn star who was once married to a Canadian serial killer (or not), is into Aryan Nation style identity politics and has a sugar daddy who is the most powerful mob boss in Russia and Ukraine. Oh, and he suffocates kittens on Youtube, and so Anonymous would like to have a "word" with him.
He's gonna die of teh HIV anyway, I don't see why they'd bother.
Quote from: thedarkphoenix on September 28, 2011, 02:00:01 PM
How do we know if everything we are experiencing is just a dream. That a civilizaton 300 years from now arent controlling us and we are nothing more then a computer program?
That's a great question, and I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce has the greatest eyebrows of all time.
So, he's like a euroAKK?
Yeah, but LOOK at him. Obviously wanna-be eurotrash.
I fear this Luka is even more outlandish than Luke. "I am known and noted for being married to a serial killer" etc. And Canadians are basically European anyway.
The more I look at those eyebrows the more they look like they have been MSpainted into the picture.
If you want a cheap laff have a look at his religion section.
I just think it's funny that he's presenting a shallow recap of nothing original at all as if it's some kind of deep philosophy.
Quote from: Faust on October 02, 2011, 01:08:36 PM
The more I look at those eyebrows the more they look like they have been MSpainted into the picture.
They totally do. :lol:
Quote from: Faust on October 02, 2011, 12:31:12 AM
Hrm...
Impersonator, fan or the nutjob himself.
I suppose time will tell.
Might also be a spambot.
Given that he dropped this and never came back, spambot seems likely.
BUMP for the homocide investigation. What a crackpot.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0531/canadian-manhunt-follows-delivery-of-body-parts.html
So I mocked a serial killer? Great, that's certainly one way to start my morning off.
Quote from: Cain on May 31, 2012, 09:54:25 AM
So I mocked a serial killer? Great, that's certainly one way to start my morning off.
He's a skinny little runt. Wouldn't be too worried.
Fuck, supposedly there is a video of him killing his bf kicking about.
How the hell did I miss this?
Went looking for this thread earlier today and couldn't remember where it was. Search just laughs at me.
So the kitten killer leveled up, at no surprise to anyone. And the eyebrows are very MS Paint.
:horrormirth: I forgot about this thread. And that guy. Until today.
I'm caught in between to opposing exploding memebombs
Also, unlike the other prominent cannibals in the news, this guy hasn't been caught yet. Apparently he is on the loose in France.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153370/Revealed-Victim-Canadian-porn-star-cannibal-Chinese-gay-lover-police-reveal-murderer-run-France--dressed-woman.html
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 02, 2012, 07:05:58 AM
Also, unlike the other prominent cannibals in the news, this guy hasn't been caught yet. Apparently he is on the loose in France.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153370/Revealed-Victim-Canadian-porn-star-cannibal-Chinese-gay-lover-police-reveal-murderer-run-France--dressed-woman.html
This world is way too small "he was living in a £40-a-night room above the Fusilier Inn in Wembley", that was our local back when I was living in london in the 90's
He has a weird face. He'd be easy to spot, drag or no.
Quote from: Faust on June 01, 2012, 12:03:58 AM
Fuck, supposedly there is a video of him killing his bf kicking about.
Confirmed by the Canadian authorities that there is video evidence of some sort, too, so it's not just morbid internet rumours.
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 01, 2012, 12:03:58 AM
Fuck, supposedly there is a video of him killing his bf kicking about.
Confirmed by the Canadian authorities that there is video evidence of some sort, too, so it's not just morbid internet rumours.
I can cross post the link to it here, it is easy to find, I don't think I will be watching it though.
Yeah im not going to watch it.
Quote from: Faust on June 02, 2012, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 01, 2012, 12:03:58 AM
Fuck, supposedly there is a video of him killing his bf kicking about.
Confirmed by the Canadian authorities that there is video evidence of some sort, too, so it's not just morbid internet rumours.
I can cross post the link to it here, it is easy to find, I don't think I will be watching it though.
I haven't seen a link, but I've been neglecting the seedy underbelly of the internet for a while now.
Whilst I'm mildly curious, I also don't think I'm that keen to see someone murdered, probably sexually tampered with after death and then dismembered.
Yeah, this is big news in Canada. It's all over the papers. He killed a guy, dismembered the body, and sent a foot to the Conservative party office and a hand to the Liberal party office. The torso was discovered in a duffel bag elsewhere.
Oh yeah, and the video? According to my stepfather, he cuts the guy's arm off after he kills him and uses it to jerk off in front of the camera.
Yep. Thats some fucked up shit right there.
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on June 02, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Yeah, this is big news in Canada. It's all over the papers. He killed a guy, dismembered the body, and sent a foot to the Conservative party office and a hand to the Liberal party office. The torso was discovered in a duffel bag elsewhere.
Oh yeah, and the video? According to my stepfather, he cuts the guy's arm off after he kills him and uses it to jerk off in front of the camera.
JESUS FUCK. :vom:
There's a play-by-play description on the site. :x According to them the video is still there (is that even legal?) but it won't work due to too much traffic.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 02, 2012, 05:12:05 PM
is that even legal?
Depends on the country the video is hosted on.
Quote from: Faust on June 02, 2012, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 02, 2012, 05:12:05 PM
is that even legal?
Depends on the country the video is hosted on.
:x :x :x
You'd think with Interpol involved, they'd yank it. Shit like that generates a lot of bogus tips, doesn't it?
Besides being surreal in its *puke* and non-consensual wrongness.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 02, 2012, 05:57:00 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 02, 2012, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 02, 2012, 05:12:05 PM
is that even legal?
Depends on the country the video is hosted on.
:x :x :x
You'd think with Interpol involved, they'd yank it. Shit like that generates a lot of bogus tips, doesn't it?
Besides being surreal in its *puke* and non-consensual wrongness.
Its that old double edged sword, for the same reasons one country doesn't have jurisdiction over any other countries internet, you get the good with the bad, for every nasty video like this there is information that the likes of the Iran's and America's of the world cannot suppress.
Quote from: Faust on June 02, 2012, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 02, 2012, 05:57:00 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 02, 2012, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 02, 2012, 05:12:05 PM
is that even legal?
Depends on the country the video is hosted on.
:x :x :x
You'd think with Interpol involved, they'd yank it. Shit like that generates a lot of bogus tips, doesn't it?
Besides being surreal in its *puke* and non-consensual wrongness.
Its that old double edged sword, for the same reasons one country doesn't have jurisdiction over any other countries internet, you get the good with the bad, for every nasty video like this there is information that the likes of the Iran's and America's of the world cannot suppress.
Yes, I generally don't advocate censorship. And if it was up to me, I legalize everything consensual between adults, no matter how wrong.
The buck stops at "consensual", though.
I don't know...this just fucks with me on a visceral level. Fuck censorship, but :x :cry: :x :cry: :x
I've seen some fucked-up things on the internet, but that is not something I would ever willingly subject my brain to. WTF is wrong with people.
The fact that BH has posted in this thread and is aware of/has access to that video is giving me the shitting heebie jeebies nothing doing.
Oh... :shudder:
guess im ok for lunch then
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 02, 2012, 06:52:30 PM
The fact that BH has posted in this thread and is aware of/has access to that video is giving me the shitting heebie jeebies nothing doing.
Yeah, he's on it like stink on shit. *shudders*
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
Holy shit, red herrings all over this thing.
Yeah, definitely one for Cain.
Someone, probably Luka, has been throwing up chaff like this for years now. It makes it very hard to know anything for certain about him.
The murder video surfaced on the web from about May 15th - before the murdered Chinese student's family said they lost contact with him, on the 24th. The Toronto police were also not especially interested in the video, until body parts started showing up in the post, as a user of "bestgore" rang them and alerted them to the murder in question.
I know I shouldn't encourage the crazy, but...
1st of March 2008 - "LtGradient" uploads "Mega Man 999 Mega Man II" to Youtube, with the description "Luka Magnotta stays true to his account's name, but can he survive the onslaught of critics?" While the video is more than a bit disjointed, one part shows Luka as Mega Man shooting at a homeless person, while the audio goes "homeless person, URGH", and another shows a decapitated person.
10th of December 2011 – Two days after Luka is interviewed in The Sun, an email is received from a "John Kilbride" to the newspaper, in which the author talks about their love of killing, a "new video" "involving humans" they will soon be making and their "sexy" male journalists. Note: the name "John Kilbride" is one of the child victims of Moors Murderers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley.
April 22nd 2012 - "Rita VanVolkenberg" uploads "Cannibal Serial Killer - Luka Magnotta" to Youtube, a montage of Luka Magnotta photos with New Order's "True Faith" playing in the background and an advertisement for his Facebook group.
May 12th – Someone on Yahoo answers asks where they can see the murder video, stating "There is a video circulating TOR ( The Deep Web) all I know is it was shot in San Fransisco, I have been trying to find it for weeks."
15th of May (unconfirmed) – the website http://one-lunatic-one-icepick.blogspot.com/ is created. The website is currently down
15th of May - "alexisvaloranreich" uploads a request on Youtube "There is apparently a video circulating around the deep web called " One Lunatic One Ice Pick" Video. Does anyone have a copy of it ?" The video is a single still, apparently taken in the same bedroom as the "1 Lunatic 1 Icepick" video.
15th of May – in response to the above video, "genisismaster" says "Apparently there is another video besides the "1 Lunatic 1 Ice Pick" video of the same guy performing oral sex on a dead woman laying on a sofa? and killing a homeless man? I am still trying to find more information on all this. Very strange." "Adam lemmon" also says he has seen the video, on the same day. Both accounts have very little activity aside from the comments on this video and are most likely sockpuppets.
16th of May 2012 – anonymousgirl4 posts on psychforums.com "1 lunatic 1 icepick" and says "Firstly , dont worry I am NOT posting graphic details or links to the video, I am just curious as to what would possess somebody to do this type of crime? There is a video of a guy around aged 20 from San Fransisco, he apparently made real snuff films that depict cannabilisim and necrophilia along with the murder. I am doing research on this and I would VERY much appreciate any and all the advice and help you could give me. Is he a psychopath or Anti Social or what? I know we dont have a lot of details but based on the crime its self. Thanks in advance."
In a follow-up post, anonymousgirl4 writes "Firstly , dont worry I am NOT posting graphic details or links to the video, I am just curious as to what would possess somebody to do this type of crime? There is a video of a guy around aged 20 from San Fransisco, he apparently made real snuff films that depict cannabilisim and necrophilia along with the murder. I am doing research on this and I would VERY much appreciate any and all the advice and help you could give me. Is he a psychopath or Anti Social or what? I know we dont have a lot of details but based on the crime its self. Thanks in advance." She claims to have seen the video on "TOR".
The user signed up for the account only 50 minutes before the post, and has not logged on again since early in the morning the day after. He or she did not respond to an email inquiry.
24th of May – Montana based "51 year old attorney" claims to have called the Toronto Police at 416-808-2222 Sunday at noon and tried to report the video". He saw the video on bestgore.com, and also reported it to RCMP, Miami and Denver police.
May 24th – Lin Jun's family's last contact with him.
May 24th-25th - Luka Magnotta allegedly murders Lin Jun.
May 25th - "1 Lunatic 1 Icepick" is uploaded to bestgore.com. Mark Marek, the site owner, says he believes the clip did not come from Magnotta himself, though he points out he has no way to verify that or vet his contributors.
May 26th – Luka Magnotta is believed to have left Montreal on this date.
May 29th – the hand and foot arrive at their respective destinations.
May 31st – "Beavis Butthead" uploads a video claiming that Luka is being framed by an "insane agent" he "got fired" several years ago, that Luka was never involved in porn and that certain scene elements do not match the same elements in Luka's apartment. The writing style of Beavis Butthead strongly suggests that is account is being run by Luka.
This is feckin weird.
http://calgary.openfile.ca/blog/ottawa/2012/heres-what-we-might-know-about-luka-rocco-magnotta
QuoteWe also know that searches on Google for "Luka Magnotta" have spiked in the past few days. Why would that be, if Magnotta's name was only released to the public today? It may have to do with the fact the murder was allegedly taped, as police have said, since if you peruse Magnotta's Facebook wall you'll come across links to the alleged video. (Note: I'm not watching it.)
Quote from: Cain on June 03, 2012, 12:31:30 AM
http://calgary.openfile.ca/blog/ottawa/2012/heres-what-we-might-know-about-luka-rocco-magnotta
QuoteWe also know that searches on Google for "Luka Magnotta" have spiked in the past few days. Why would that be, if Magnotta's name was only released to the public today? It may have to do with the fact the murder was allegedly taped, as police have said, since if you peruse Magnotta's Facebook wall you'll come across links to the alleged video. (Note: I'm not watching it.)
His name was public the day I posted the RTE article or sooner, RTE are generally last to hear of any news.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 02, 2012, 06:52:30 PM
The fact that BH has posted in this thread and is aware of/has access to that video is giving me the shitting heebie jeebies nothing doing.
Didn't watch it, not going to watch it. I only like imaginary snuff.
Quote from: Faust on June 03, 2012, 12:33:04 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 03, 2012, 12:31:30 AM
http://calgary.openfile.ca/blog/ottawa/2012/heres-what-we-might-know-about-luka-rocco-magnotta
QuoteWe also know that searches on Google for "Luka Magnotta" have spiked in the past few days. Why would that be, if Magnotta's name was only released to the public today? It may have to do with the fact the murder was allegedly taped, as police have said, since if you peruse Magnotta's Facebook wall you'll come across links to the alleged video. (Note: I'm not watching it.)
His name was public the day I posted the RTE article or sooner, RTE are generally last to hear of any news.
Sorry, should have clarified. The above was posted on the day of the release of his name, the same day you posted it. His name was trending before then.
From what I can see, the most simple explanation is that Magnotta had been planning the murder for quite some time, and the various Youtube and forum postings were "promotional material" to make sure the video would go viral when it was actually released.
That's the theory I'm going with for now, though I'm still keeping other theories in mind.
Also
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Porn+star+wanted+murder+dismemberment+case+dated+Karla+Homolka/6701569/story.html#ixzz1wOdkWWW7
QuoteMontreal Police have confirmed the suspect at large in a gruesome murder and dismemberment case once dated notorious sex killer Karla Homolka.
THIS
is pure Peter Sotos material.
Magnotta has been picked up by police in Berlin. He was arrested at a cybercafe.
Good, although I find the place of arrest vaguely amusing.
Cain what do you make of all of this? I cant make anything of it.
Quote from: Uncle Wallified on June 02, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Oh yeah, and the video? According to my stepfather, he cuts the guy's arm off after he kills him and uses it to jerk off in front of the camera.
That's taking the concept of the "dutch rudder" to a whole new level.
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 04, 2012, 05:41:39 PM
Cain what do you make of all of this? I cant make anything of it.
In what sense?
The whole friggin thing. Like why was he setting up a bunch of sock puppet accounts for artificial notoriety? Is this sort of behavior typical of a killers personality but just now being influenced with 21st century tech? I mean we still dont know who jack the ripper was because he didnt make a habit of writing the paper saying "many say its this guy but he has his detractors" or whatever. Its just really fucking weird.
I can't say I'm an expert on serial killers, but narcissistic personality disorder and sexual murder have been linked before.
It wouldn't exactly be a stretch to conclude Luka Magnotta suffered from the former, given his online presence.
I'm just glad they nabbed his ass.
And yeah. NPD.
That makes sense. But the whole sort of "hey im a serial killer hahaha not really but seriously i am thing" is just a little weird even for that no?
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 04, 2012, 06:29:14 PM
That makes sense. But the whole sort of "hey im a serial killer hahaha not really but seriously i am thing" is just a little weird even for that no?
Controversy is PR.
So they caught him in Belgium today. Good.
I made myself watch the video...partly out of train wreck curiosity and partly out of a desire to steel myself for the horrors I will no doubt see in my job--horrors like decapitated children and things which will no doubt haunt me in the years ahead of me.
I pussied out and closed my eyes for much of it: enough to get the main idea of what he was doing and what he was going to do next. I couldn't finish. It's too awful.
It had a profound educational and emotional effect on me: to know and understand with clarity that a human being who for all purposes appears no less than normal: normal human face, human eyes, normal human body, could be capable of exacting so intimately, such horror on another living, breathing human being...a horror that transcends that of the daily disconnected shootings in the streets of my old neighborhood, or coerced prostitution or any number of terrible things people do to each other but which, for the most part, are so common and so disconnected, that they often go on unreported.
I had a true "Gift of Fear" revelation that there exist among us, people who appear no worse than averagely cracked on the outside but who are, inside their heads, nothing approaching normal. People who may be easy to underestimate in if warning signs are left ignored.
And it saddens me. For all I gained in understanding, I also lost something. I find myself re-examining people in my life, looking for signs that may reveal things in their character of which to be rightfully afraid: acquaintances I once dismissed as being a little odd but likely harmless. Habits, things said in passing that made me raise an eye but which I attributed to quirk.
And I am frightened, I will worry now about people's motives in their dealings with me or my son. Find myself suddenly understanding the wisdom in not being so damned open and permissive with my personal space, my comings and goings, identifying information. I will be that much more aware as I enter people's homes or other scenes as a caregiver, for dangers and warnings I may have let slip past before. I will pay a little more attention to the things people say, their behaviors and body language.
And I feel sympathy for Jun Lin's loved ones. I know that since this horrorshow is a Canadian citizen, he will not be put to death. I hope they are able to find peace in his incarceration. I have already reached out to them with my sympathies. How awful to have access to chronicle of this...I can't even imagine the cognitive dissonance, the ambivalence when making the choice to see or not see. I deeply empathize.
I don't know who else has watched this or if anyone has discussed it before in quite this way but I felt it was important. I felt it important to speak the truth without blanketing it over with meaningless exclamations of "Ew! Sicko!" I felt it important to not lie and deny I'd seen it in shame or in attempt to eject its presence from my mind...important to open dialogue to anyone else who may have been affected beyond just the ubiquitous and omnipresent revulsion.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 01:58:01 AM
So they caught him in Belgium today. Good.
I made myself watch the video...partly out of train wreck curiosity and partly out of a desire to steel myself for the horrors I will no doubt see in my job--horrors like decapitated children and things which will no doubt haunt me in the years ahead of me.
I pussied out and closed my eyes for much of it: enough to get the main idea of what he was doing and what he was going to do next. I couldn't finish. It's too awful.
It had a profound educational and emotional effect on me: to know and understand with clarity that a human being who for all purposes appears no less than normal: normal human face, human eyes, normal human body, could be capable of exacting so intimately, such horror on another living, breathing human being...a horror that transcends that of the daily disconnected shootings in the streets of my old neighborhood, or coerced prostitution or any number of terrible things people do to each other but which, for the most part, are so common and so disconnected, that they often go on unreported.
I had a true "Gift of Fear" revelation that there exist among us, people who appear no worse than averagely cracked on the outside but who are, inside their heads, nothing approaching normal. People who may be easy to underestimate in if warning signs are left ignored.
And it saddens me. For all I gained in understanding, I also lost something. I find myself re-examining people in my life, looking for signs that may reveal things in their character of which to be rightfully afraid: acquaintances I once dismissed as being a little odd but likely harmless. Habits, things said in passing that made me raise an eye but which I attributed to quirk.
And I am frightened, I will worry now about people's motives in their dealings with me or my son. Find myself suddenly understanding the wisdom in not being so damned open and permissive with my personal space, my comings and goings, identifying information. I will be that much more aware as I enter people's homes or other scenes as a caregiver, for dangers and warnings I may have let slip past before. I will pay a little more attention to the things people say, their behaviors and body language.
And I feel sympathy for Jun Lin's loved ones. I know that since this horrorshow is a Canadian citizen, he will not be put to death. I hope they are able to find peace in his incarceration. I have already reached out to them with my sympathies. How awful to have access to chronicle of this...I can't even imagine the cognitive dissonance, the ambivalence when making the choice to see or not see. I deeply empathize.
I don't know who else has watched this or if anyone has discussed it before in quite this way but I felt it was important. I felt it important to speak the truth without blanketing it over with meaningless exclamations of "Ew! Sicko!" I felt it important to not lie and deny I'd seen it in shame or in attempt to eject its presence from my mind...important to open dialogue to anyone else who may have been affected beyond just the ubiquitous and omnipresent revulsion.
I have no intent on watching it. Ever.
I'm a history guy. Humans are terrible. I'm also a human. Humans are terrible.
Here's the bright side. The last, err, 3 weeks in the news aside, humans generally are no more or less terrible than any other humans you know. Out of 7 billion people, statistically taking total population and location and borders into consideration, nothing will happen to either you or your son. You should be cautious, but not overly so. The chances that someone is a monster is slim. They may be a dick. But a monster? Monsters only really are ubiquitous in third world countries that aren't the United States.
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
That made my fists clench.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 02:36:14 AM
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
Tanya needs to be pushed off a cliff.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 02:43:16 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 02:36:14 AM
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
Tanya needs to be pushed off a cliff.
With a baseball bat.
Quote from: Luna on June 05, 2012, 04:01:09 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 02:43:16 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 02:36:14 AM
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
Tanya needs to be pushed off a cliff.
With a baseball bat.
Thing is, if you started whacking every fucking yahoo like that, in any state, you'd wear your Goddamn arm out. And there would still be yahoos.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 04:14:27 AM
Quote from: Luna on June 05, 2012, 04:01:09 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 02:43:16 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 02:36:14 AM
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
Tanya needs to be pushed off a cliff.
With a baseball bat.
Thing is, if you started whacking every fucking yahoo like that, in any state, you'd wear your Goddamn arm out. And there would still be yahoos.
Need whacking machines.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 05, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 04:14:27 AM
Quote from: Luna on June 05, 2012, 04:01:09 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 02:43:16 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 02:36:14 AM
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
Tanya needs to be pushed off a cliff.
With a baseball bat.
Thing is, if you started whacking every fucking yahoo like that, in any state, you'd wear your Goddamn arm out. And there would still be yahoos.
Need whacking machines. wood-chippers
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 04:14:27 AM
Quote from: Luna on June 05, 2012, 04:01:09 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 02:43:16 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 02:36:14 AM
I don't think they're ubiquitous but predators exist.
Here's something else that's no less dangerous that exists in no short supply in my country: Last week, a 19-year-old mom of 2 was arrested for breaking her infant son's femurs, right here in Alabama, one county over. When asked how it happened, she admitted it to the hospital staff with no more of an explanation than a casual "I have anger issues."
Further examination of the infant revealed a three-week-old, untreated skull-fracture. She was arrested and booked. She is smiling in her mugshots.
She unfortunately sees "anger issues" as a perfectly logical excuse for her behavior. She no doubt realizes she'll be ordered into treatment and will eventually be able to regain visitation and/or custody of her children after rehabilitation...if she wants them. I have no doubt by her flippant attitude about her behavior, that she knows this by example: someone else in her world has been through this and gotten the kids back and no doubt, someone in her family has dismissed her monstrous behavior in the past as "Tanya's got anger issues. Better steer clear of her when she's in that mood."
This is she:
(http://media.al.com/live/photo/11109971-large.jpg)
Tanya needs to be pushed off a cliff.
With a baseball bat.
Thing is, if you started whacking every fucking yahoo like that, in any state, you'd wear your Goddamn arm out. And there would still be yahoos.
Maybe, but that's no excuse not to do my part. When I'm done, I can loan the bat to the next actual non-fucking yahoo in line.
I'm now expecting Breivik-esque court shennanigans from Luka. The Berlin police are ready to extradite, so it shouldn't take too long.
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
I'm now expecting Breivik-esque court shennanigans from Luka. The Berlin police are ready to extradite, so it shouldn't take too long.
It doesn't matter. Once he's in Canada, he's not getting the death penalty and he's not going to do hard time if he's
sick.
Someone needs to put the Jack Ruby on him.
So navkat, are you arguing the genuinely psychotic deserve to be killed?
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
I'm now expecting Breivik-esque court shennanigans from Luka. The Berlin police are ready to extradite, so it shouldn't take too long.
It doesn't matter. Once he's in Canada, he's not getting the death penalty and he's not going to do hard time if he's sick.
Any sane country doesn't use the death penalty. Judging by the severity of what he did and the fact that he released this video to the general populace I would assert that he should be studied in a mental institute, he would be a very useful specimen for the rest of his life, the data that could be garnered over the decades would be fascinating.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
So navkat, are you arguing the genuinely psychotic deserve to be killed?
Not officially, no. Such would be a presumptuous human rights violation and a hypocrisy. But, you know, if something just sort of
happened...
Quote from: Faust on June 05, 2012, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
I'm now expecting Breivik-esque court shennanigans from Luka. The Berlin police are ready to extradite, so it shouldn't take too long.
It doesn't matter. Once he's in Canada, he's not getting the death penalty and he's not going to do hard time if he's sick.
Any sane country doesn't use the death penalty. Judging by the severity of what he did and the fact that he released this video to the general populace I would assert that he should be studied in a mental institute, he would be a very useful specimen for the rest of his life, the data that could be garnered over the decades would be fascinating.
Or there's that.
Truthfully, I'm sorting out a lot of cognitive dissonance on this issue. One of the depraved residuals left by my having subjected myself to that video is that it is now real to me in a way that makes it more difficult to keep my knee-jerk brutality response in check. This guy did those things to a person who was still alive and moving (though, seemingly sedated) in the beginning.
The thing that becomes apparent is that he's beyond rehabilitation because he just had no feelings. The way he went about his acts made it evident that Jun Lin was just a plaything, no different to him than a child gleefully dissembling a GI Joe doll and playing with the parts. There's no one home there and to place him into a mental facility under treatment is akin to pouring a beautiful wine down the hole of a stinking Port-o-loo.
The only possible gain I can see is that which Faust pointed out: dissect him. Mentally dissemble him. Subject him to every possible set of experiments and re-programming techniques and interrogation techniques and sleep-deprivation studies and a host of other theoretical cures and research procedures for SCIENCE.
Which is, in itself, a form of brutality, I suppose but then again, so is getting up and going to work every day for some people. You could call this his job.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
So navkat, are you arguing the genuinely psychotic deserve to be killed?
Not officially, no. Such would be a presumptuous human rights violation and a hypocrisy. But, you know, if something just sort of happened...
Ah, so you're settling for being a moral coward on the issue. Gotcha.
So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category? Suspected terrorists? Oh, wait, we already do that one. Child molestors? Oh, ditto. Music pirates? The retarded? J00s?
we should definitely kill this fucker right back.
the death penalty should be handled with care.
but handled.
study him? that's his goal. that's the motivation he has for killing. (from what i've seen)
he's a sick fuck, and that's all we really need to know about him, afaict.
what significant or useful thing would be garnered by studying him for decades? (while spending the resources necessary for keeping him alive, and torturing the survivors of his callous inhumanity with his continued existence.)
wait. perhaps you mean there are some biology lessons that require destructive testing? that, i could get behind...
And now we're discussing carrying out unethical medical procedures on prisoners. Yay.
Look, lets just skip ahead and go with a program called Aktion T4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4).
It's so good to see that Discordians are better than all the cabbages out there who scream for bloody vengeance because a Badwrong Person did something wicked and evil, and certainly aren't indulging in bloody fantasies not to dissimilar from the one's the person they wished to punish actually carried out.
What Cain said. I've been down this road before -- I got flamed pretty hard once for suggesting that accused pedophiles deserve a fair trial and rehabilitation if convicted, rather than castration with a salad fork. I've since tried to stay out of wildly emotional threads that flatly reject rationality in favor of blood vengance, precisely because the primate scream drowns out everything else.
But thank you, Cain, for the reminder that killing people is bad.
Thanks, LMNO. However, I'm feeling too sick to continue with this thread.
i certainly never claimed to be as civilized as the gentlemen in this company.
yes.
i think, if it is absolutely clear that someone murdered someone, we should murder them back.
i have no problem with bloody vengeance.
cabbage? i can take it.
not killing monsters like this out of fear of losing our humanity is really out of touch with our human nature, if you ask me.
i guess i've said what i'm gonna say on the topic, and as i have a personal blood vengeance desire that i nurse, i shouldn't really be taken as a rational decision maker in the argument anyways...
I sooked out of this one, but yeah, I'm going to put it out there that I'm agreed that revenge is no way to run a system of law.
Also we do all understand that what were talkig about in mental health terms is the possibility of a human who is genuinely incapable of controlling their own behaviour; please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a pretty damning thing to kill someone for.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on June 05, 2012, 02:43:59 PM
i certainly never claimed to be as civilized as the gentlemen in this company.
yes.
i think, if it is absolutely clear that someone murdered someone, we should murder them back.
Okay. Who gets to decide what's "clear"?
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
So navkat, are you arguing the genuinely psychotic deserve to be killed?
Not officially, no. Such would be a presumptuous human rights violation and a hypocrisy. But, you know, if something just sort of happened...
Like stuff just sort of
happens to brown people in Sheriff Joe's tent city jail?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on June 05, 2012, 02:43:59 PM
i certainly never claimed to be as civilized as the gentlemen in this company.
yes.
i think, if it is absolutely clear that someone murdered someone, we should murder them back.
Okay. Who gets to decide what's "clear"?
If i'm not mistaken, Luka decided that it is clear.
however, upon reconsideration, my remark about medical testing was base humor, and uncalled for.
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 03, 2012, 01:02:19 AM
THIS
is pure Peter Sotos material.
Dude, EOT, GTFO my account. I don't even know who Peter Soros IS.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 01:58:01 AM
So they caught him in Belgium today. Good.
I made myself watch the video...partly out of train wreck curiosity and partly out of a desire to steel myself for the horrors I will no doubt see in my job--horrors like decapitated children and things which will no doubt haunt me in the years ahead of me.
I pussied out and closed my eyes for much of it: enough to get the main idea of what he was doing and what he was going to do next. I couldn't finish. It's too awful.
It had a profound educational and emotional effect on me: to know and understand with clarity that a human being who for all purposes appears no less than normal: normal human face, human eyes, normal human body, could be capable of exacting so intimately, such horror on another living, breathing human being...a horror that transcends that of the daily disconnected shootings in the streets of my old neighborhood, or coerced prostitution or any number of terrible things people do to each other but which, for the most part, are so common and so disconnected, that they often go on unreported.
I had a true "Gift of Fear" revelation that there exist among us, people who appear no worse than averagely cracked on the outside but who are, inside their heads, nothing approaching normal. People who may be easy to underestimate in if warning signs are left ignored.
And it saddens me. For all I gained in understanding, I also lost something. I find myself re-examining people in my life, looking for signs that may reveal things in their character of which to be rightfully afraid: acquaintances I once dismissed as being a little odd but likely harmless. Habits, things said in passing that made me raise an eye but which I attributed to quirk.
And I am frightened, I will worry now about people's motives in their dealings with me or my son. Find myself suddenly understanding the wisdom in not being so damned open and permissive with my personal space, my comings and goings, identifying information. I will be that much more aware as I enter people's homes or other scenes as a caregiver, for dangers and warnings I may have let slip past before. I will pay a little more attention to the things people say, their behaviors and body language.
And I feel sympathy for Jun Lin's loved ones. I know that since this horrorshow is a Canadian citizen, he will not be put to death. I hope they are able to find peace in his incarceration. I have already reached out to them with my sympathies. How awful to have access to chronicle of this...I can't even imagine the cognitive dissonance, the ambivalence when making the choice to see or not see. I deeply empathize.
I don't know who else has watched this or if anyone has discussed it before in quite this way but I felt it was important. I felt it important to speak the truth without blanketing it over with meaningless exclamations of "Ew! Sicko!" I felt it important to not lie and deny I'd seen it in shame or in attempt to eject its presence from my mind...important to open dialogue to anyone else who may have been affected beyond just the ubiquitous and omnipresent revulsion.
OK, your "Gift of fear" should really have kicked in BEFORE you watched it. WTF.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:34:48 PM
It's so good to see that Discordians are better than all the cabbages out there who scream for bloody vengeance because a Badwrong Person did something wicked and evil, and certainly aren't indulging in bloody fantasies not to dissimilar from the one's the person they wished to punish actually carried out.
This.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 05, 2012, 02:39:24 PM
What Cain said. I've been down this road before -- I got flamed pretty hard once for suggesting that accused pedophiles deserve a fair trial and rehabilitation if convicted, rather than castration with a salad fork. I've since tried to stay out of wildly emotional threads that flatly reject rationality in favor of blood vengance, precisely because the primate scream drowns out everything else.
But thank you, Cain, for the reminder that killing people is bad.
And this. I remember that thread. If I recall, you and I and a few other people were accused of being pro-child-molester because we suggested that a fair trial and rehab/reasonable sentencing was preferable to a lynch mob.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:32:27 PM
And now we're discussing carrying out unethical medical procedures on prisoners. Yay.
Look, lets just skip ahead and go with a program called Aktion T4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4).
I meant every word I said, he is the perfect candidate for studying a psychological disorder that isn't understood very well at all. The same with Breivik.
Unlike navkat inferred, I wasn't implying subjecting him to psychological torment, there is no reason he cannot be comfortable while being studied.
And to the other side of this thread that rears its ugly head on this site every so often: The death penalty is never justifiable. There is no handling the Death penalty with care, its a non issue it shouldn't happen.
Quote from: Faust on June 05, 2012, 03:59:28 PM
Unlike navkat inferred, I wasn't implying subjecting him to psychological torment, there is no reason he cannot be comfortable while being studied.
That was me, not Navkat. It was meant as black humor, but was uncalled for.
What Faust said.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category? Suspected terrorists? Oh, wait, we already do that one. Child molestors? Oh, ditto. Music pirates? The retarded? J00s?
You're fucking with me, right? Lots of users here have said far worse than my mainly tongue-in-cheek remarks but you're fucking with
me because you know I'm actually deeply bothered by this and actually give a shit, right?
I can't decide if you're poking good-naturedly or not so I'm going to assume you're half-poking (like I was half-joking, but soberingly, dealing with the reality of the macabre
feelings just the same) and are genuinely curious as to my feelings on the matter.
*Sigh* No. In all seriousness, I don't advocate anything but proper justice for this and any other turd. As much as I'm battling my own feelings of ill-will towards him, I'm also a rational human being who, while I'd
like to believe there just
might be a god or kharma or some comic force of justice which would step in and make right without my having to sully my conscience, ultimately, I don't believe that any human being has the right to dole out indignity, torture or death to any other human being for any reason except in cases of self-defence or defence of one's dependents.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 05, 2012, 02:39:24 PM
What Cain said. I've been down this road before -- I got flamed pretty hard once for suggesting that accused pedophiles deserve a fair trial and rehabilitation if convicted, rather than castration with a salad fork. I've since tried to stay out of wildly emotional threads that flatly reject rationality in favor of blood vengance, precisely because the primate scream drowns out everything else.
But thank you, Cain, for the reminder that killing people is bad.
If I were there, I'd have been getting flamed too.
Quote from: Faust on June 05, 2012, 03:59:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:32:27 PM
And now we're discussing carrying out unethical medical procedures on prisoners. Yay.
Look, lets just skip ahead and go with a program called Aktion T4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4).
I meant every word I said, he is the perfect candidate for studying a psychological disorder that isn't understood very well at all. The same with Breivik.
Unlike navkat inferred, I wasn't implying subjecting him to psychological torment, there is no reason he cannot be comfortable while being studied.
And to the other side of this thread that rears its ugly head on this site every so often: The death penalty is never justifiable. There is no handling the Death penalty with care, its a non issue it shouldn't happen.
Oh, I definitely don't think he should be
comfortable if indeed, he is guilty, particularly if he admits guilt and the verdict is not just thrust upon him. However, I am not advocating that we actually torture him.
And I'm surprised the sarcasm in my comments failed so hard. Especially when I made clear my own state of ambivalence on the matter. Let me clarify: if he's guilty of this, does some part of me want him to hurt...bad? YES.
Do I, in sane, light-of-day reasoning think
actions towards subjecting him to death or torture are appropriate? NO.
Could I carry out such a thing? NO.
Could I allow someone else to carry out such a thing, even if I keep my hands clean and even if I only sort of "loosely" suspect it's going to happen? NO.
Would I stop such a thing if it were in my power to do so if I found out about someone's plot to kill or torture this creep? <---this is what I'm having trouble with. The answer is most likely, YES. True justice, carried out evenly for all is above any revulsion, fear or sense of empathized injustice and outrage I feel on behalf of Jun Lin and his loved ones...but this one's hard for me. THAT is what I was saying. And I would have a difficult time being outraged on behalf of Magnotta's right to due process (assuming that he admits it) if someone from Jun Lin's family (NO ONE ELSE) took vigilante action.
Does that clarify things? Because after all the flack I take around here with regard to standing up for people's rights in spite of
assumptions, I would have thought this all quite obvious.
And fuck, I'm pretty sure I've written shit on here at least once, my opposition to the death-penalty and torture.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 05, 2012, 02:39:24 PM
What Cain said. I've been down this road before -- I got flamed pretty hard once for suggesting that accused pedophiles deserve a fair trial and rehabilitation if convicted, rather than castration with a salad fork. I've since tried to stay out of wildly emotional threads that flatly reject rationality in favor of blood vengance, precisely because the primate scream drowns out everything else.
But thank you, Cain, for the reminder that killing people is bad.
Yes.
Ironically, killing prisoners also means, barring the possibility of Eternal Torture In Hell
(TM) their suffering is shortened. They're dead, not locked up.
And let me make this clear, as well so I can be certain this isn't taken the wrong way either: When I say, he should be made "uncomfortable," what I mean is that there shouldn't be run-of-the-mill, noodle-necklace time for this chucklehead. Therapy is work and relies mainly on the inner motive on behalf of the person in therapy to become a better, well-adjusted and worthy person. The typical Therapist/patient relationship relies on mutual goals towards wellness, honesty, effort and respect. It is one of free-will.
I believe no such capability or motive exists within this man, if he is indeed guilty of the acts on that video. I also believe that a sentence of therapy in a punitive setting in this case (and in other cases where it is determined properly by a psychiatrist that no sense of remourse or empathy exist), is one devoid of the existence of mutual respect, trust, honesty and goals towards wellness. I believe that the natural tendency of this man will be to dive further into his delusions of grandeur and his fantasy world that shields him from giving a shit and I believe that to attempt to Tx such a patient, the therapist must be both strong-willed and capable of (and permitted) using other tacks.
And if the goal is to learn something usable (which, to me, would equate not just to comprehension of the mental architecture for the purposes of recognition and avoidance of falling prey to, but more, usable knowledge which over time, might reveal how how to rehabilitate--or at least rehabilitate young--a mind such as this before damage is done), this man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics. The goal, of course, is not to use this man (as he used his victim) and simply waste him as a total loss, but to avoid falling into his bullshit, disallow him escape into his bullshit and yes, to Tx the patient with the understanding that some of the medicine is uncomfortable for him to take.
I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.
Tell him lies, have everyone on the ward tell him lies, shake up his world, confuse him, "dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust. So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.
I hope that's clear. Never intended you hook his ass up to ECT and let 'er rip.
That is all insanely unethical and completely horrifying, from a human research perspective.
Researching people who do butcher other people for entertainment might prove helpful in understanding how their minds work, how they got that way, and how to predict or prevent such nightmares. It is highly unlikely that anything can be done to cure them, so keeping them confined, treating them humanely, and studying them is probably the most constructive option.
When you look at how many people are convicted of (and even executed for) crimes they didn't commit, maybe my perspective becomes more clear.
But even if guilt were 100% assured, that kind of treatment costs us our own humanity, and benefits no one. If we're willing to go there, we might as well go back to the days of performing medical experiments on prisoners.
Yes, THIS.
Something else people can't seem to get their mind around is that the act of cutting prisoners off from society at large, in order to protect society, contains its own punishment. Brutalizing them just makes us dicks.
Too lazy to google, but the state of California actually repealed the death penalty for awhile, I think it was in the 70's? Some of the inmates who weren't totally psycho batshit ended up getting released and only one went on to kill again (he was also psycho batshit but somehow the judge wasn't given all the info). The rest went on to live quiet, and in most cases productive, lives. This makes me VERY uncomfortable with the idea of killing prisoners.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category? Suspected terrorists? Oh, wait, we already do that one. Child molestors? Oh, ditto. Music pirates? The retarded? J00s?
You're fucking with me, right? Lots of users here have said far worse than my mainly tongue-in-cheek remarks but you're fucking with me because you know I'm actually deeply bothered by this and actually give a shit, right?
Really? Who's said far worse then? If Cain wouldn't have said anything, I would.
I also don't understand how someone can be against the death penalty on principle, and then make tongue in cheek remarks about "I don't want them to be put to death, but what if something were to
happen to them" -- makes those principles sound pretty disingenuous, in this context.
and were the following DISGUSTING remarks "tongue in cheek" as well?
Quotethis man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics
I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.
Tell him lies,
have everyone on the ward tell him lies,
shake up his world, confuse him,
"dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations
which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust.
So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.
Because REALLY WHATTHE FUCK, NAVKAT
EVERYTHING you want to do to him according to the above quote seems to be based on REVENGE, make him suffer as long as you can "pretend" it's for research.
It's pretty much the same as wishing something would "happen" to him.
Now know this: Of course you can't cure him. Nor can you cure anyone else if you were to somehow "detect" the symptoms beforehand. The ONLY thing you can do is maybe make sure they don't make victims. So that's all the research that needs to be done. Observation. Maybe some drugs but I'm no medical psychiatrist. But you can't just build a system of compassion into someone that never understood what the concept is, no matter how hard you make them work for it.
Just a side observation: Perhaps people have written worse, but there's a good chance that it was more of a hyperbolic polemic than anything else, such as if I said: I HOPE THOSE FUCKERS GET STABBED IN THE NUTS WITH A SHARPENED TAZER or something to that effect. Maybe it was the tone, or maybe the clarifications, but the difference I see is that where as I wouldn't actually want to jam a sharpened tazer into anyone's junk, your post seems to say that maybe, maybe a bit of torture/enhanced interrogation might be ok.
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 05, 2012, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category? Suspected terrorists? Oh, wait, we already do that one. Child molestors? Oh, ditto. Music pirates? The retarded? J00s?
You're fucking with me, right? Lots of users here have said far worse than my mainly tongue-in-cheek remarks but you're fucking with me because you know I'm actually deeply bothered by this and actually give a shit, right?
Really? Who's said far worse then? If Cain wouldn't have said anything, I would.
I also don't understand how someone can be against the death penalty on principle, and then make tongue in cheek remarks about "I don't want them to be put to death, but what if something were to happen to them" -- makes those principles sound pretty disingenuous, in this context.
and were the following DISGUSTING remarks "tongue in cheek" as well?
Quotethis man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics
I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.
Tell him lies,
have everyone on the ward tell him lies,
shake up his world, confuse him,
"dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations
which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust.
So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.
Because REALLY WHATTHE FUCK, NAVKAT
EVERYTHING you want to do to him according to the above quote seems to be based on REVENGE, make him suffer as long as you can "pretend" it's for research.
It's pretty much the same as wishing something would "happen" to him.
Now know this: Of course you can't cure him. Nor can you cure anyone else if you were to somehow "detect" the symptoms beforehand. The ONLY thing you can do is maybe make sure they don't make victims. So that's all the research that needs to be done. Observation. Maybe some drugs but I'm no medical psychiatrist. But you can't just build a system of compassion into someone that never understood what the concept is, no matter how hard you make them work for it.
"IT ISN'T RILLY TORTURE IF IT'S NONVIOLENT". :x
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Wait. He posted here?
Quote from: thedarkphoenix on September 28, 2011, 02:00:01 PM
http://www.Luka-Magnotta.com
How do we know if everything we are experiencing is just a dream. That a civilizaton 300 years from now arent controlling us and we are nothing more then a computer program?
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc449/vampiressexy1/Luka-Magnotta-gay-vampire.jpg)
Luka Magnotta
WTF?
Part of his e-peen self-promotion attention whoring is my guess.
I hope, for his monitor's sake, that BH doesn't see this thread.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 06:29:55 PM
I hope, for his monitor's sake, that BH doesn't see this thread.
Or the dead cat helicopter one.
Wait.
29 years old.
Canadian.
Real name: Eric Newman.
:eek:
ERIC!
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 05:48:33 PM
But even if guilt were 100% assured, that kind of treatment costs us our own humanity, and benefits no one. If we're willing to go there, we might as well go back to the days of performing medical experiments on prisoners.
Funnily enough, yesterday on Facebook a popular picture to be spreading around was "Why are we still testing on animals when we have prisons full of pedophiles? ...Just saying." (hur hur hur) :roll: Had a post typed out re: setting that sort of precedent, rights, slippery slope, etc. but since you aren't allowed to post anything meaningful on FB, it wouldn't let me comment on anything yesterday. Of course, I can already predict the responses would have been "Oh so you're ok with torturing animals but just lurrrrve pedophiles."
So, i may just re-post and comment on it anyway, because fuck everyone. Stuff like that just makes my skin crawl because no-one actually
thinks about the implications of what they're saying
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 05, 2012, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category? Suspected terrorists? Oh, wait, we already do that one. Child molestors? Oh, ditto. Music pirates? The retarded? J00s?
You're fucking with me, right? Lots of users here have said far worse than my mainly tongue-in-cheek remarks but you're fucking with me because you know I'm actually deeply bothered by this and actually give a shit, right?
Really? Who's said far worse then? If Cain wouldn't have said anything, I would.
I also don't understand how someone can be against the death penalty on principle, and then make tongue in cheek remarks about "I don't want them to be put to death, but what if something were to happen to them" -- makes those principles sound pretty disingenuous, in this context.
and were the following DISGUSTING remarks "tongue in cheek" as well?
Quotethis man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics
I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.
Tell him lies,
have everyone on the ward tell him lies,
shake up his world, confuse him,
"dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations
which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust.
So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.
Because REALLY WHATTHE FUCK, NAVKAT
EVERYTHING you want to do to him according to the above quote seems to be based on REVENGE, make him suffer as long as you can "pretend" it's for research.
It's pretty much the same as wishing something would "happen" to him.
Now know this: Of course you can't cure him. Nor can you cure anyone else if you were to somehow "detect" the symptoms beforehand. The ONLY thing you can do is maybe make sure they don't make victims. So that's all the research that needs to be done. Observation. Maybe some drugs but I'm no medical psychiatrist. But you can't just build a system of compassion into someone that never understood what the concept is, no matter how hard you make them work for it.
I don't think if he's going to be treated as an ill person who belongs in a hospital that the point should be to make him comfortable until he passes away like a cancer patient. If he's going to be treated
at all it must be with the intent to make him less ill. Anything else is assault and battery from a medical standpoint. If the intent is simply to hold him against his will in a cage until he dies of natural causes, he doesn't need to be in a hospital for that. Prison is just fine for that purpose.
If you want any chance at treating him, you must force him out of his fantasy-land where he's a top-earning, world-renowned, jet-setter pr0n star. The only way to do that is to alter his locus of control. The only way to alter his locus of control is to break down his sense of the predictable and constantly re-direct him as soon as he thinks he's found a way to control or influence the situation.
The items mentioned are not intended as revenge, they aren't kind, by any means but they are intended to be #1 imposed upon him against his will, #2 unmercifully difficult for him and #3 highly effective at "breaking him down to build him back up" the way sleep deprivation and re-ordering sense of individuality or personal control is used in boot camp to "clean the slate" bad civilian attitude problems and habits in the new recruit.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: thedarkphoenix on September 28, 2011, 02:00:01 PM
http://www.Luka-Magnotta.com
How do we know if everything we are experiencing is just a dream. That a civilizaton 300 years from now arent controlling us and we are nothing more then a computer program?
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc449/vampiressexy1/Luka-Magnotta-gay-vampire.jpg)
Luka Magnotta
WTF?
Creepy.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able, as of yet, to dig up anything that hasn't already been reported on.
What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion. Sure, it's possible, but it is it
probable? We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums. I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.
I have acquired footage of the murder, as well, but I've only watched some very brief scenes. Not enough to verify if it is him in the video. A lot was made of his modelling past, but his facial features are pretty distinct, if there is a clear shot in the video, I am fairly certain, even with the terrible quality, that it would be easy to tell if it was him or not.
I just hate the feeling of being forced to live in some lunatic's cheap knock-off of
Se7en.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on June 05, 2012, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 05:48:33 PM
But even if guilt were 100% assured, that kind of treatment costs us our own humanity, and benefits no one. If we're willing to go there, we might as well go back to the days of performing medical experiments on prisoners.
Funnily enough, yesterday on Facebook a popular picture to be spreading around was "Why are we still testing on animals when we have prisons full of pedophiles? ...Just saying." (hur hur hur) :roll: Had a post typed out re: setting that sort of precedent, rights, slippery slope, etc. but since you aren't allowed to post anything meaningful on FB, it wouldn't let me comment on anything yesterday. Of course, I can already predict the responses would have been "Oh so you're ok with torturing animals but just lurrrrve pedophiles."
So, i may just re-post and comment on it anyway, because fuck everyone. Stuff like that just makes my skin crawl because no-one actually thinks about the implications of what they're saying
Every time somebody does something horrifying to a dog or cat, the threads are full of people like that. When it's about eating dogs in China, there's a lot of blatant racism to go with it, with no mention of what happens on factory farms and in slaughter houses here. I suspect the animals would be better off if their most vocal protectors weren't 99% fucktards.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion. Sure, it's possible, but it is it probable? We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums. I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.
The possible implications of that are so fucked and tangled as to defy contemplation. By my brain, anyway. I'm leaving that one to you, too.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 06:19:26 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Wait. He posted here?
That's why I bumped the thread.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able, as of yet, to dig up anything that hasn't already been reported on.
What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion. Sure, it's possible, but it is it probable? We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums. I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.
I have acquired footage of the murder, as well, but I've only watched some very brief scenes. Not enough to verify if it is him in the video. A lot was made of his modelling past, but his facial features are pretty distinct, if there is a clear shot in the video, I am fairly certain, even with the terrible quality, that it would be easy to tell if it was him or not.
I just hate the feeling of being forced to live in some lunatic's cheap knock-off of Se7en.
Ive heard speculation that he either is taking credit for a killing he didnt commit, or he is allowing the real killer to pin it on him to feed his need for fame. Or rather, the real killer is manipulating his compulsive attention seeking.
Keep in mind that even if it was him in the video doing things to the bodies he never video taped the actual murders.
Im not even close to wading through the rest of this. But- no one has the right to take your life even if you took someone elses. Execution is not only murder but pointless murder since the condemn is already removed from society through incarceration. I find any support for capital punishment to be disgusting and subhuman.
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on June 05, 2012, 07:58:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able, as of yet, to dig up anything that hasn't already been reported on.
What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion. Sure, it's possible, but it is it probable? We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums. I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.
I have acquired footage of the murder, as well, but I've only watched some very brief scenes. Not enough to verify if it is him in the video. A lot was made of his modelling past, but his facial features are pretty distinct, if there is a clear shot in the video, I am fairly certain, even with the terrible quality, that it would be easy to tell if it was him or not.
I just hate the feeling of being forced to live in some lunatic's cheap knock-off of Se7en.
Ive heard speculation that he either is taking credit for a killing he didnt commit, or he is allowing the real killer to pin it on him to feed his need for fame. Or rather, the real killer is manipulating his compulsive attention seeking.
Keep in mind that even if it was him in the video doing things to the bodies he never video taped the actual murders.
All plausible alternative theories.
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on June 05, 2012, 07:58:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able, as of yet, to dig up anything that hasn't already been reported on.
What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion. Sure, it's possible, but it is it probable? We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums. I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.
I have acquired footage of the murder, as well, but I've only watched some very brief scenes. Not enough to verify if it is him in the video. A lot was made of his modelling past, but his facial features are pretty distinct, if there is a clear shot in the video, I am fairly certain, even with the terrible quality, that it would be easy to tell if it was him or not.
I just hate the feeling of being forced to live in some lunatic's cheap knock-off of Se7en.
Ive heard speculation that he either is taking credit for a killing he didnt commit, or he is allowing the real killer to pin it on him to feed his need for fame. Or rather, the real killer is manipulating his compulsive attention seeking.
Keep in mind that even if it was him in the video doing things to the bodies he never video taped the actual murders.
Now I'm even more confused...haven't seen the video, but the descriptions say the victim was "drugged" and "still moving" and say that someone who is allegedly Magnotta stabbed him with an ice pick, etc.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 05, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim. I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.
I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia.
Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.
Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye. I am going to go investigating.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able, as of yet, to dig up anything that hasn't already been reported on.
What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion. Sure, it's possible, but it is it probable? We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums. I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.
I have acquired footage of the murder, as well, but I've only watched some very brief scenes. Not enough to verify if it is him in the video. A lot was made of his modelling past, but his facial features are pretty distinct, if there is a clear shot in the video, I am fairly certain, even with the terrible quality, that it would be easy to tell if it was him or not.
I just hate the feeling of being forced to live in some lunatic's cheap knock-off of Se7en.
I'll say if the things I said in my first post on the issue aren't of concern or importance for you to experience, don't do it. It's really hard to absorb and I had to look away for a lot of it and pause it a lot and pace the floor and...repeat.
I think it's
probable that it is his video and
possible it's not. Especially given the fact that 1. we know the body parts he sent out belonged to Jun Lin and 2. at the very least, the still shot which accompanied the video of the video victim's face looks very much like Jun Lin's photos...though far less distinctive feature-wise than Magnotta.
That said, I believe Magnotta will admit it. I concur that one of Magnotta's motives and driving desires is attention. It's totally conceivable to me that he created a bunch of accounts simply to pre-hype his film. This isn't an unheard of strategy. Consider the Jose Girah Macedo online poker scam from (i think) last year.
Add to this the fact that there was no confirmed copy of the film viewed by any outsider prior to 25 May. The gore site admin says only that it was circulating on Tor for a while before he got hold of it himself. For a person whose site is centered around collecting obscure, gore-related material, I find it difficult to believe it took him ten days to find a working link on Tor if the links were truly connected to a real video and not dead links created to hype this.
I think Magnotta knew he'd have to GTFO of Dodge as soon as the deed was done and I'd be willing to bet the kitten thing was a "dry run" to guage how many days it would take before a macabre-type video reached a target number of views and whether or not it would become viral
enough that others would have copied it and mirrored it before YT took it down. I mean, I've had some time to sit and be plagued by thoughts about this guy and to try to figure him out and that's what my gut is telling me.
The video, from the parts I watched seems cut and spliced a lot. I'm willing to bet there
are no identifying shots of his face in it on purpose. I think he did that with the deliberate intent of leaving himself the option to play either or both sides of the "game," to claim and/or deny it at the same time, interchangeably, depending on his whim or purpose. However, the footage of the news story that got the cameras inside the Montreal apartment belonging to Magnotta, outside of which the suitcase was found and inside of which other..."matter" was removed by police...well, the apartment and bed looked like it could have been those in the video but both were cleaned up before the news cameras were allowed to enter.
I think he's either playing a game or impulsively humouring his fluctuating whims in the handling of this. I mean, there was no
political reason for him to mail body parts to governing agencies so we know he wants the attention, I think he's not yet committed to admitting it was
him until he sees a little more of what's on the table if he confesses. I believe he's audacious enough to still believe he's in control here and that he'll be able to use his "confession" as a bargaining chip here when really, his intent is to bask in the glow of telling the world all along. I'd be willing to bet they found a copy of James St. James'
Disco Bloodbath somewhere among his personal effects.
"We are living in an age where the pursuit of all values other than money, success, fame and glamour has either been discredited or destroyed." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7TGNhVsa94)
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 05, 2012, 09:17:18 PM
Now I'm even more confused...haven't seen the video, but the descriptions say the victim was "drugged" and "still moving" and say that someone who is allegedly Magnotta stabbed him with an ice pick, etc.
There was a point in the beginning of the film where the person was still alive and moving and somewhat tied up and yes, appeared to have a decreased level of consciousness. At this point, is still seemed like just a guy and his boyfriend who partied hard the night before and the semi-passed-out boyfriend was still nekkid and tangled up in the bondage from the prior night's festivities. The awake guy in the room seemed to be playfully messing with the passed-out boyfriend, trying to rouse him, or whatever.
There was a cut and splice and by the time I saw an ice pick, come out, I believe the naked boy was already dead. He did not respond at ALL to any stimulus and looked just...wrong. I started looking away through a lot of this part. Shortly thereafter, it got way worse and I had to stop it and walk away from it.
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 06:59:50 PMI don't think if he's going to be treated as an ill person who belongs in a hospital that the point should be to make him comfortable until he passes away like a cancer patient. If he's going to be treated at all it must be with the intent to make him less ill. Anything else is assault and battery from a medical standpoint. If the intent is simply to hold him against his will in a cage until he dies of natural causes, he doesn't need to be in a hospital for that. Prison is just fine for that purpose.
I dunno how it works in Canada, but over here we don't consider prison "just fine" for the insane. They go to "TBS clinics" (regardless whether there's a causal connection between their disorder and their crime) where they do get therapy, and structure, lots of structure (the lying games and sleepcycle messing-up isn't really considered conducive to their mental health, usually) and yeah if they do get better they need to finish their term (either in the clinic or regular prison, depending on what the doctors think) and then they go out.
Actually reading on (Dutch) Wikipedia, the system is more complex than that. There's evaluations every 2 years and after 6 years it gets decided whether the patient shall go to a "longstay" clinic which is not intended for treatment but to house mental patients considered a danger to society. Also, in the TBS clinic treatment is voluntary, unless it is forced--that bit is a bit unclear yeah, I could ask a friend of mine who works at one of those places as a psychiatrist how it works exactly. It's very very complicated, all sorts of regulations designed to make sure no human rights and such are violated. There's not many "longstay" patients in NL, btw. about 200. There's also some incidents with patients escaping and bad shit happening, the system is not perfect.
Still I'm fairly happy it works the way it does.
The point of incarceration is fourfold: First, there's punishment of the criminal. I think that's a stupid reason, it smells like "payback" in the name of justice. Second there's setting an example to discourage people from committing such a crime. This I consider a good reason, but you can't have it without the first punishment part (otherwise there's no example), so in that context I consider punishment a good idea. And third, there's removing a dangerous person from society for some amount of time. Fourth, ideally the time in prison should be spent preparing the prisoner to return to society, this time as a better person who won't fall back to crime. That last part doesn't work as well as it should, also not in NL.
But in the case of someone with no compassion, no idea of the "other" being a living breathing human being (this is a disorder that can't be cured, afaik--either sociopathy or psychopathy, I forget) the "setting an example" part does absolutely shitfuckall for the other psychos walking around because they don't care and/or believe they're way too smart to get caught, ever. So that leaves just the 3rd and 4th reasons. IMO.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 05, 2012, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
You're still a sick fuck. I put you in the same basket as the freak in question.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 05, 2012, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
Experience has taught me that is dead wrong. Furry is the gateway drug to bestiality. Just like imaginary snuff is the gateway to lobbing someones head off with an ice pick.
Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture. They are psychologically torturous. It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.
I agree with Faust and whoever else said that a lot of interesting research could come to light from studying him. I knew a girl who was nominated for a study of her brain, and nobody was saying anything about shit like sleep deprivation and lies and so on.
Also, Trip, they are just now doing studies of that in children, and there is evidence that it can be detected as early as four. Since the studies are new, and the sample sizes relatively small, there's not a lot of data, but I read the researchers had hopes of finding that they could be helped as children. I'm pretty sure I found that link here, did you read it too?
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 05, 2012, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
That actually makes it a little easier to grasp. Also (not that I'm the poster child for attracting well-adjusted men) but I had a boyfriend who fantasized about being a vampire and going through the vampire death and rebirth process and who romanticized making love to and like a vampire. He was like,
obsessed with it. Bought me frilly victorian-looking shirts and liked me to wear dark lipstick and pale makeup. Drank Tawny Port out of bombastically gaudy goblets and offered me sips with this really intense, undead look on his face. Then, Oliver Stone's The Doors movie came out and he was suddenly obsessed with writing poetry and calling me "Pam."
But you have said some things that
do (especially since watching that hot mess, ugh!) give me pause. At one point, you said something that gave me the impression that you were sending out a ping to guage if I was open to your proclivities too which is a resounding NO. But it's not the fact
that you did it, it was the
way you did it. The segue you jumped on was related to the killing of people in political activism circumstances which is a little too realistic of a possibility of happening in real life to be used as an appropriate way to test for something strictly fantasy, follow?
If you're really telling the truth that the idea of real death is repugnant to you while some romanticized, play-acting death scene is what's going on in your head, that sounds a little odd and silly but likely non-threatening. But I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here are uncomfortable with your fetish (or in my case, find it a little icky) so here's probably a not good place to ever, ever send out a signal flare.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you? May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me." Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the
right people.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:46:27 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 05, 2012, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
You're still a sick fuck. I put you in the same basket as the freak in question.
To be fair, there's being an attention whore, and there's
planning of and carrying out a murder of another human being to stoke your ego.IIRC, one of the first things Babylon did after joining this forum was to participate in a dice-rolling experiment to test his magickal powers, which puts him at least +5 respect points ahead of the magicqueial pagans who hide behind insane forum mods. Even if he pinned it on a cold later, he at least put himself in the position to fail publicly.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:30:08 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you? May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me." Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.
It's like the way people used to (and sometimes still do) carry on about people on welfare:
"I SAW THAT WELFARE SLUG WITH HER KIDS AT MCDONALDS AND THEY WERE EATING WITH MY TAX DOLLARS, I WORK 60 HOURS A WEEK AND I CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE MY KIDS TO MCDONALDS!" These things end up with no welfare for anybody who needs it, of course. Including people who said things like that and are no longer working.
Welfare cuts suck, but they're a pretty cheap lesson compared to brutalizing prisoners.
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on June 06, 2012, 01:06:51 AM
Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture. They are psychologically torturous. It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.
I can't decide if I agree with you that it's actual torture (although a mild form at the level I have in my head) and I'm saying "So be it. It's a necessary evil in this case." OR if I disagree that it's actual torture (at least in this application and level) and rather believe it's
discomfort...and used as a tool to elicit emotional response in an attempt to find a crack in his dissociation.
Sociopathy
is borne of dissociation. The sociopath at some point learned to cope by completely disconnecting from the human experiences of fear, reliance on others, trust, need for security, etc. I have a few theories (based on my "advanced novice" understanding of clinical psychiatry and some physiology) about how to "correct" (or re-sensitize) the sociopathic disordered mechanism. Part of this process will no doubt, require the a measured, dynamic use of positive punishment like placing the patient in situations of discomfort and duress, negative reinforcement (ending discomfort.."saving" the patient from the discomfort) and the application of positive reinforcement (reward)
in conjunction with the use of oxytocin and some transference psychodynamic therapy practices.
The problem is: sociopaths don't often seek therapy unless it's to avoid discomfort and personal inconvenience like imprisonment or the end of a convenient marriage. The prognosis is poor because they're very seductive liars and bullshit artists. The psychotherapist often has to see a psychotherapist him or her self to maintain connection to reality and avoid being "sucked into" the sociopath's world. Therapy is more effective in children displaying ODD not just because habits are easier to break in the young, but also because a teen or child is a captive audience whose status doesn't allow him to disregard instructions, blow off appointments or otherwise weasel his way out of treatment outside of internal disregard and dissociation. Certain manipulation tactics are also less effective in a pediatric patient because there's only so much bullshit he can get away with when he still lives under supervision.
In a situation like this where a sociopath, untreated and unaddressed, has caused this much damage, it's pretty safe to say that extreme, compulsory psychiatric intervention is not unwarranted. In fact, as I've recently learned, not
all sociopaths are killers or criminals or even terrible, awful people. There are plenty who have no desire to hurt anyone or commit any crimes or even do anything which would put them at odds with society. Many of them have found a comfortable niche within society's parameters and to put themselves at odds would be counterproductive to their wants and needs. They are simply people who have no capacity for empathy and therefore, no ability to feel guilt or selflessness and so, love. It's believed to be due to a combination of genetic predisposition and a poorly formed frame of reference for a healthy give-and-take, dependence/met needs/trust/attachment dynamic in childhood.
Magnotta was allowed to live in society to find a niche of comfort without chopping people to pieces for casual fun. He fucked that all up. If he's ordered into treatment, I think it's totally justified to make intensive, radical treatment ideas compulsory.
If that's using (mild) torture as a means to an end to his sickness, so be it.
The alternative, as I am reading it from some of your responses, is just as ugly in a sense...or possibly worse in a way. That is to completely de-humanize him. To call him "not a human being and beyond hope of becoming one." But you still accept that he's a living creature...still an
animal and therefore, entitled to not endure cruelty. The same thing that makes it fucked up to hurt a puppy, right? But if an adult Rottweiler mauled a baby and proved himself unable to live harmoniously with other humans, what would you do? Would you pay for him to stay in a kennel and never be placed in a state of unreasonable discomfort until he passed away of natural causes?
What about aggressive, human-spoiled Grizzlies who are increasingly entering human dwelling areas, eating pets, attacking children? What do we do with those guys when they are beyond naturalization?
And what about other primates? If a member of the troop showed total disregard for societal laws necessary for harmonious survival of the troop, what do the other primates do? If one of the troop's members murdered and then displayed deviant behavior with the corpse of a beloved/respected member of the troop, how do the Rhesus monkeys respond?
And how about this: isn't just being in a cage a form of cruelty to any creature and therefore, consequential vengeance?
What other than self-awareness within the context of our unique relationship to our species and the world around us makes up
sentience as opposed to simple, mechanical
intelligence?
If Magnotta is a lost cause because he can not maintain meaningful, accurate self-awareness as he relates to the other members of his own species, what makes him different than that Rottweiler or the Grizzly: an intelligent predator with a capacity to deceive? Why should we merely house him in comfort?
Do I think we have discovered definitive techniques to rehabilitate him in this lifetime? Probably no. But I think someday, we may possibly look back and see our dismissal of sociopaths (or any psycho-pathology) as
incapable of rehabilitation as the thing that's archaic, brutal and primitive, not strides to bridge that gap, but the refusal to try...like the way we used to dump cerebral palsy patients into nuthouses or institutions for the
mentally disabled.
But I'd be full of shit if I said my ultimate goal was fair or humane treatment here. Essentially, my motives a geared towards making an honest effort to find a palliative treatment so that others can benefit from what we learn from treating
him.
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 06:59:50 PM
If you want any chance at treating him, you must force him out of his fantasy-land where he's a top-earning, world-renowned, jet-setter pr0n star. The only way to do that is to alter his locus of control. The only way to alter his locus of control is to break down his sense of the predictable and constantly re-direct him as soon as he thinks he's found a way to control or influence the situation.
The items mentioned are not intended as revenge, they aren't kind, by any means but they are intended to be #1 imposed upon him against his will, #2 unmercifully difficult for him and #3 highly effective at "breaking him down to build him back up" the way sleep deprivation and re-ordering sense of individuality or personal control is used in boot camp to "clean the slate" bad civilian attitude problems and habits in the new recruit.
Not to be snide, but recent events in Afganistan and Iraq suggest that bootcamp / war zone style breaking down of an individuals sense of self might be the opposite of what turns mass murderers into well-adjusted people.
What you're proposing is the gross disintegration of a human's psyche, in an extremely painful process that the "patient" does not want and receives no personal benefit from (why would he want to be normal?) on the off chance that maybe
this time that style of psychological torture would un-insane someone. Given that there's no record of anyone being cured of sociopathy, ever, I don't really see the point. If nothing else, it turns a couple of people from doctors into torturers.
eta: written before I saw your most recent post.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:30:08 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you? May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me." Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.
What? No! That was aimed at LUNA who made a remark about hitting Tanya with a bat. My reply was to say "Unfortunately, YOU are a contributing member of society I like having around but unfortunately, the consequences of hitting ol' gal with a bat will be far more profound for you than HER."
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 06, 2012, 03:43:35 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:30:08 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you? May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me." Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.
It's like the way people used to (and sometimes still do) carry on about people on welfare:
"I SAW THAT WELFARE SLUG WITH HER KIDS AT MCDONALDS AND THEY WERE EATING WITH MY TAX DOLLARS, I WORK 60 HOURS A WEEK AND I CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE MY KIDS TO MCDONALDS!" These things end up with no welfare for anybody who needs it, of course. Including people who said things like that and are no longer working.
Welfare cuts suck, but they're a pretty cheap lesson compared to brutalizing prisoners.
No, it's
not like that. At all.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 03:57:52 AM
Sociopathy is borne of dissociation. The sociopath at some point learned to cope by completely disconnecting from the human experiences of fear, reliance on others, trust, need for security, etc. I have a few theories (based on my "advanced novice" understanding of clinical psychiatry and some physiology) about how to "correct" (or re-sensitize) the sociopathic disordered mechanism. Part of this process will no doubt, require the a measured, dynamic use of positive punishment like placing the patient in situations of discomfort and duress, negative reinforcement (ending discomfort.."saving" the patient from the discomfort) and the application of positive reinforcement (reward) in conjunction with the use of oxytocin and some transference psychodynamic therapy practices.
Okay - the
actual scientific research about training people for empathy involves stuff like bringing puppies and babies into preschools and letting the kids play with them, and asking children to do imaginative role-playing exercises where they imagine things from someone else's perspective.
What you're describing is the thing where you teach people learned helplessness and turn them into paranoid wrecks.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 04:00:48 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:30:08 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you? May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me." Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.
What? No! That was aimed at LUNA who made a remark about hitting Tanya with a bat. My reply was to say "Unfortunately, YOU are a contributing member of society I like having around but unfortunately, the consequences of hitting ol' gal with a bat will be far more profound for you than HER."
Oh... that makes a lot more sense. I thought it was one of those crazy first-second person "You"s.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:58:59 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 06:59:50 PM
If you want any chance at treating him, you must force him out of his fantasy-land where he's a top-earning, world-renowned, jet-setter pr0n star. The only way to do that is to alter his locus of control. The only way to alter his locus of control is to break down his sense of the predictable and constantly re-direct him as soon as he thinks he's found a way to control or influence the situation.
The items mentioned are not intended as revenge, they aren't kind, by any means but they are intended to be #1 imposed upon him against his will, #2 unmercifully difficult for him and #3 highly effective at "breaking him down to build him back up" the way sleep deprivation and re-ordering sense of individuality or personal control is used in boot camp to "clean the slate" bad civilian attitude problems and habits in the new recruit.
Not to be snide, but recent events in Afganistan and Iraq suggest that bootcamp / war zone style breaking down of an individuals sense of self might be the opposite of what turns mass murderers into well-adjusted people.
What you're proposing is the gross disintegration of a human's psyche, in an extremely painful process that the "patient" does not want and receives no personal benefit from (why would he want to be normal?) on the off chance that maybe this time that style of psychological torture would un-insane someone. Given that there's no record of anyone being cured of sociopathy, ever, I don't really see the point. If nothing else, it turns a couple of people from doctors into torturers.
eta: written before I saw your most recent post.
Right. The fact is, we haven't figured it out yet but I don't buy that it's impossible. You couldn't just
subject him to stuff because that
is just mindless, aimless cruelty. There would have to be a phased plan to net the most amount of benefit from the least amount of stick.
Like, if a child has cancer and the treatment options are horrifically painful, we generally provide the treatment and justify the painful administration thereof because the goal is wellness
even if there's no guarantee that it will work because the alternative: perpetuating the illness when something can be tried, is way worse morally, right?
So this is illness too.
You make one good point though: he doesn't see anything wrong with himself. He doesn't perceive himself as ill. There's an immorality slippery-slope here when you consider that factor. That's where I go out on a limb and say "you lost that choice when you failed to conduct yourself as a not ill person." I rationalize the means not just by the ends but also by the beginnings.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 04:06:04 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 03:57:52 AM
Sociopathy is borne of dissociation. The sociopath at some point learned to cope by completely disconnecting from the human experiences of fear, reliance on others, trust, need for security, etc. I have a few theories (based on my "advanced novice" understanding of clinical psychiatry and some physiology) about how to "correct" (or re-sensitize) the sociopathic disordered mechanism. Part of this process will no doubt, require the a measured, dynamic use of positive punishment like placing the patient in situations of discomfort and duress, negative reinforcement (ending discomfort.."saving" the patient from the discomfort) and the application of positive reinforcement (reward) in conjunction with the use of oxytocin and some transference psychodynamic therapy practices.
Okay - the actual scientific research about training people for empathy involves stuff like bringing puppies and babies into preschools and letting the kids play with them, and asking children to do imaginative role-playing exercises where they imagine things from someone else's perspective.
What you're describing is the thing where you teach people learned helplessness and turn them into paranoid wrecks.
And learned helplessness isn't an improvement at all.
Beyond that, I believe with the use of oxytocin (the attachment/bonding hormone) and other careful use of neurotransmitter agonists, it may be possible to create neural pathways (though limited) to more typical stimulus/response/behaviour patterns which will naturally become deeper the longer they're practiced/used. This may prove ultimately useless on the incarcerated patient but have profound impact on quality of life for societal patients who are motivated to seek and complete and maintain therapeutic gains resulting from adherence to treatment.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 04:15:14 AM
Right. The fact is, we haven't figured it out yet but I don't buy that it's impossible. You couldn't just subject him to stuff because that is just mindless, aimless cruelty. There would have to be a phased plan to net the most amount of benefit from the least amount of stick.
We might actually be in agreement here; it just seems to me that the most benefit / least stick scenario, given how little we actually understand about the condition, is closer to a controlled environment where he can't hurt anyone else and doctors / scientists can learn things by observing/studying him.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 04:15:14 AM
Like, if a child has cancer and the treatment options are horrifically painful, we generally provide the treatment and justify the painful administration thereof because the goal is wellness even if there's no guarantee that it will work because the alternative: perpetuating the illness when something can be tried, is way worse morally, right?
Not... really? If the "something to be tried" is as bad or worse than the illness, I can't think of any moral framework where that statement makes sense. There's also a huge gap between "no guarantee of success" and "no reasonable chance of success", and another huge gap between excruciating but transient physical pain and the systematic destruction of a person's psyche. Last refuge being the mind, and all that.
Also I believe IRL that that's the point where parents halt treatment and do the "fill his last days with as many happy memories as we can" thing.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 04:15:14 AM
So this is illness too.
You make one good point though: he doesn't see anything wrong with himself. He doesn't perceive himself as ill. There's an immorality slippery-slope here when you consider that factor. That's where I go out on a limb and say "you lost that choice when you failed to conduct yourself as a not ill person." I rationalize the means not just by the ends but also by the beginnings.
I'm not 100% sure I agree with "illness." I'll allow "mental/personality disorder" - it's certainly a deviation from societal norms - but to say illness I feel like you need to show that the person himself is suffering from it. It's certainly harmful to society around him, but suppose he was also the king of North Korea or wherever and could murder people at will without being subject to human consequences - it's not clear at all that he's also being victimized by his own condition.
You end up with a policy of involuntary personality standardization because it's more convenient for society than accommodating the outliers. ("Accommodating" in this case meaning "keeping them somewhere where they can't murder more people.") I guess it comes down to which you find less repugnant: removing people from society so that they are no longer a threat to others, or fucking with their brains until they are no longer a threat to others. I prefer the former but I'm fully aware that that might just be a Socratic "a man's mind is his last refuge" bias.
In the interest of explaining my own biases:
When I read "This may prove ultimately useless on the incarcerated patient but have profound impact on quality of life for societal patients who are motivated to seek and complete and maintain therapeutic gains resulting from adherence to treatment.", I can't help but think of a 1960s guy saying:
"We may not know how to cure homosexuality yet, but with enough criminals like Alan Turing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing) to experiment on, we'll eventually hit the right cocktail of drugs that turns people straight without also causing them to die in horrible ways."
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 04:15:14 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:58:59 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 06:59:50 PM
If you want any chance at treating him, you must force him out of his fantasy-land where he's a top-earning, world-renowned, jet-setter pr0n star. The only way to do that is to alter his locus of control. The only way to alter his locus of control is to break down his sense of the predictable and constantly re-direct him as soon as he thinks he's found a way to control or influence the situation.
The items mentioned are not intended as revenge, they aren't kind, by any means but they are intended to be #1 imposed upon him against his will, #2 unmercifully difficult for him and #3 highly effective at "breaking him down to build him back up" the way sleep deprivation and re-ordering sense of individuality or personal control is used in boot camp to "clean the slate" bad civilian attitude problems and habits in the new recruit.
Not to be snide, but recent events in Afganistan and Iraq suggest that bootcamp / war zone style breaking down of an individuals sense of self might be the opposite of what turns mass murderers into well-adjusted people.
What you're proposing is the gross disintegration of a human's psyche, in an extremely painful process that the "patient" does not want and receives no personal benefit from (why would he want to be normal?) on the off chance that maybe this time that style of psychological torture would un-insane someone. Given that there's no record of anyone being cured of sociopathy, ever, I don't really see the point. If nothing else, it turns a couple of people from doctors into torturers.
eta: written before I saw your most recent post.
Right. The fact is, we haven't figured it out yet but I don't buy that it's impossible. You couldn't just subject him to stuff because that is just mindless, aimless cruelty. There would have to be a phased plan to net the most amount of benefit from the least amount of stick.
Like, if a child has cancer and the treatment options are horrifically painful, we generally provide the treatment and justify the painful administration thereof because the goal is wellness even if there's no guarantee that it will work because the alternative: perpetuating the illness when something can be tried, is way worse morally, right?
So this is illness too.
You make one good point though: he doesn't see anything wrong with himself. He doesn't perceive himself as ill. There's an immorality slippery-slope here when you consider that factor. That's where I go out on a limb and say "you lost that choice when you failed to conduct yourself as a not ill person." I rationalize the means not just by the ends but also by the beginnings.
The bolded- the child in question, or at least its parents, have a choice in the matter. I like you, nav, but I must admit that some of your posts ITT do come across as... pretty Mengele. Maybe I'm reading you wrong too, but...
I think the difference is that Luna made a one line quip. Your post was, err... pretty detailed. There's a bit of a difference between, "that person should get hit with something hard" and "we need to do experiments on this person. Here's the experiments. It's almost publishable if you get rid of IRB protocols and formulate a hypothesis."
It's funny if someone puts a banana peel in your path. It's not funny if you have to watch a reenactment of the Stations of the Cross.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:58:59 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 06:59:50 PM
If you want any chance at treating him, you must force him out of his fantasy-land where he's a top-earning, world-renowned, jet-setter pr0n star. The only way to do that is to alter his locus of control. The only way to alter his locus of control is to break down his sense of the predictable and constantly re-direct him as soon as he thinks he's found a way to control or influence the situation.
The items mentioned are not intended as revenge, they aren't kind, by any means but they are intended to be #1 imposed upon him against his will, #2 unmercifully difficult for him and #3 highly effective at "breaking him down to build him back up" the way sleep deprivation and re-ordering sense of individuality or personal control is used in boot camp to "clean the slate" bad civilian attitude problems and habits in the new recruit.
Not to be snide, but recent events in Afganistan and Iraq suggest that bootcamp / war zone style breaking down of an individuals sense of self might be the opposite of what turns mass murderers into well-adjusted people.
What you're proposing is the gross disintegration of a human's psyche, in an extremely painful process that the "patient" does not want and receives no personal benefit from (why would he want to be normal?) on the off chance that maybe this time that style of psychological torture would un-insane someone. Given that there's no record of anyone being cured of sociopathy, ever, I don't really see the point. If nothing else, it turns a couple of people from doctors into torturers.
eta: written before I saw your most recent post.
I think that it's important not to underestimate the psychological effects on people directed to treat another person in such a manner.
The problem with exposing the criminally insane to experimental procedures in the off-chance that you might hit upon something that helped them be more sane is that it's cruel, unethical, illegal, and inhuman. I thought we got past that last century, but I guess that was wishful thinking.
This is where we just disagree then, I guess.
I don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
I don't know what it is we're supposed to be "learning" from a person who bullshits himself, bullshits his therapist and doesn't feel particularly burdened by feelings of guilt or obligation to cooperate with anyone unless it's for self-gain.
What he did to that victim was just a damned mess. I mean, he's not exactly getting thrown into Dr. Chilton's dungeon next to "Multiple Miggs in the next cell." It just really bothers me that he gets to go here: http://www.pinel.qc.ca/ContentP.aspx?NavID=68&CultureCode=en-CA and he doesn't have to do anything else. The truth is, they aren't going to treat him as a case-study, they're going to put him on a permanent sick-day from life. No, he's not allowed out of the house to go outside to play but he never has to put his shoes on and go back to work, either. And he never, ever has to do anything he doesn't wanna again because he's crazy and can't handle any pressure.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 09:51:58 AM
This is where we just disagree then, I guess.
I don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
Ah I see you have no idea how mental health institutions work.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 09:51:58 AM
I don't know what it is we're supposed to be "learning" from a person who bullshits himself, bullshits his therapist and doesn't feel particularly burdened by feelings of guilt or obligation to cooperate with anyone unless it's for self-gain.
What he did to that victim was just a damned mess. I mean, he's not exactly getting thrown into Dr. Chilton's dungeon next to "Multiple Miggs in the next cell." It just really bothers me that he gets to go here: http://www.pinel.qc.ca/ContentP.aspx?NavID=68&CultureCode=en-CA and he doesn't have to do anything else. The truth is, they aren't going to treat him as a case-study, they're going to put him on a permanent sick-day from life. No, he's not allowed out of the house to go outside to play but he never has to put his shoes on and go back to work, either. And he never, ever has to do anything he doesn't wanna again because he's crazy and can't handle any pressure.
1) You are horribly short sighted as to what can be learned.
2) If you think they aren't going to treat his as a study case you are severely underestimating physiological researchers desire to treat a high profile patient.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 09:51:58 AM
This is where we just disagree then, I guess.
I don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
I don't know what it is we're supposed to be "learning" from a person who bullshits himself, bullshits his therapist and doesn't feel particularly burdened by feelings of guilt or obligation to cooperate with anyone unless it's for self-gain.
What he did to that victim was just a damned mess. I mean, he's not exactly getting thrown into Dr. Chilton's dungeon next to "Multiple Miggs in the next cell." It just really bothers me that he gets to go here: http://www.pinel.qc.ca/ContentP.aspx?NavID=68&CultureCode=en-CA and he doesn't have to do anything else. The truth is, they aren't going to treat him as a case-study, they're going to put him on a permanent sick-day from life. No, he's not allowed out of the house to go outside to play but he never has to put his shoes on and go back to work, either. And he never, ever has to do anything he doesn't wanna again because he's crazy and can't handle any pressure.
It's not about Luka. It's about keeping him contained where he can't kill any more asian people and/or kittehs. He has to be put in a cage, probably for ever but the only reason the cage would require electrified spikes in place of a bed is petty revenge which doesn't benefit society any more than treating him humanely as you would expect to treat any other dangerous animal in captivity.
Personally I have no qualms with executing the "right people" I'd even go out on a limb and say our pornstar cannibal does sound like a prime candidate but that's the rub - how can we be sure? Where do we draw the line? How do we ensure that maistakes aren't made? Simple answer to all these questions is we can't - that's why I'm against the death penalty. Not a moral thing, as much as a practical thing.
Quote from: navkatI don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
Wait, what?
That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.
You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".
I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people
more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.
Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?
I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose. The "punishment" has no meaning. At that point, it becomes mere sadism.
There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!" Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 06, 2012, 10:39:47 AM
Quote from: navkatI don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
Wait, what?
That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.
You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".
I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.
Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?
I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).
American ex-convicts are pretty likely to go back to jail at some point. It's not only what happens to them on the inside, it's often also what happened to them in the years leading up to the incarceration, plus I imagine it's hard to get hired anywhere after doing time. Once a criminal, always a criminal, you know? So what do you do for work when everyone thinks you're still a criminal. Well, stealing and dealing probably. Then you're back in jail. "Told you that guy was a criminal," they say then, "can't stay out of trouble."
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on June 06, 2012, 03:43:35 AM
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 06, 2012, 03:30:08 AM
Quote from: navkat on June 05, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.
SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.
Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you? May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me." Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.
It's like the way people used to (and sometimes still do) carry on about people on welfare:
"I SAW THAT WELFARE SLUG WITH HER KIDS AT MCDONALDS AND THEY WERE EATING WITH MY TAX DOLLARS, I WORK 60 HOURS A WEEK AND I CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE MY KIDS TO MCDONALDS!" These things end up with no welfare for anybody who needs it, of course. Including people who said things like that and are no longer working.
Welfare cuts suck, but they're a pretty cheap lesson compared to brutalizing prisoners.
Difference is, the people who say things like that are assuming that the Black family they're looking at in McDonalds must naturally be on welfare.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 06, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose. The "punishment" has no meaning. At that point, it becomes mere sadism.
There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!" Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.
Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.
This is America™. We must do monstrous things to deal with abberations, nuisances, and other society-threatening events. Reasoned, measured responses are for Euro-sissies and other weakings. Here, we should arrange an "accident" for accused killers, or pump them full of drugs to see what happens. Mole hills are in fact mountains, and those mountains must be crushed before they avalanche onto our toes and fuck up our pedicures.
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 06, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose. The "punishment" has no meaning. At that point, it becomes mere sadism.
There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!" Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.
Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.
With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.
Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 02:20:13 PM
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 06, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose. The "punishment" has no meaning. At that point, it becomes mere sadism.
There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!" Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.
Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.
With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.
Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.
Which hardly seems like an average vacation from work.
Americans are weird people. They all love their rights and democracy and Constitution, but only when it applies to them. Cruel and unusual punishment? Fuck that. Assholes deserve cruel and unusual punishment. They're horrible people. Maybe we can lynch them while they're awaiting trial. We need good, swift justice without all that slow and unnecessary court stuff.
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 02:20:13 PM
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 06, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose. The "punishment" has no meaning. At that point, it becomes mere sadism.
There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!" Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.
Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.
With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.
Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.
Which hardly seems like an average vacation from work.
Americans are weird people. They all love their rights and democracy and Constitution, but only when it applies to them. Cruel and unusual punishment? Fuck that. Assholes deserve cruel and unusual punishment. They're horrible people. Maybe we can lynch them while they're awaiting trial. We need good, swift justice without all that slow and unnecessary court stuff.
Well, it's every American's right...DUTY...to show just how FUCKING OUTRAGED THEY ARE, so it is required that people sound off with calls for torture and extra-judicial punishments.
TGRR, your post has OUTRAGED me!
Time for bastinado!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 02:32:08 PM
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 02:20:13 PM
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 06, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose. The "punishment" has no meaning. At that point, it becomes mere sadism.
There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!" Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.
Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.
With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.
Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.
Which hardly seems like an average vacation from work.
Americans are weird people. They all love their rights and democracy and Constitution, but only when it applies to them. Cruel and unusual punishment? Fuck that. Assholes deserve cruel and unusual punishment. They're horrible people. Maybe we can lynch them while they're awaiting trial. We need good, swift justice without all that slow and unnecessary court stuff.
Well, it's every American's right...DUTY...to show just how FUCKING OUTRAGED THEY ARE, so it is required that people sound off with calls for torture and extra-judicial punishments.
Everything makes sense now. This extends to everything. Even your order at McDonalds. Which is why you occasionally get people who flip out and assault the poor bastards working there. Which gets on the news. Which makes people complain about how this country's going down the crapper. Then it's their turn to be that asshole. Then it's someone else's turn. And every time, they shake their head and make assumptions about the person. They build up a simplified narrative of their life. Then if it comes out that the person is quite similar to them they ignore it and say that some people are just assholes/it's this country going town the crapper that made them snap like that.
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:09:12 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 06, 2012, 10:39:47 AM
Quote from: navkatI don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
Wait, what?
That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.
You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".
I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.
Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?
I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).
American ex-convicts are pretty likely to go back to jail at some point. It's not only what happens to them on the inside, it's often also what happened to them in the years leading up to the incarceration, plus I imagine it's hard to get hired anywhere after doing time. Once a criminal, always a criminal, you know? So what do you do for work when everyone thinks you're still a criminal. Well, stealing and dealing probably. Then you're back in jail. "Told you that guy was a criminal," they say then, "can't stay out of trouble."
Yup; once they become institutionalized as criminals there's an incredibly high rate of recidivism. You see this particularly with drug crimes, where, once labeled a felon, many opportunities are stripped from the ex-convict in terms of jobs, living arrangements, educational future, and they return to dealing drugs in order to survive. A second offense receives a harsher penalty than the first, etc. and eventually, a kid with a quarter ounce of pot in a baggie becomes a lifer thanks to three strikes and other "tough on crime" laws.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on June 06, 2012, 03:40:26 PM
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 06, 2012, 02:09:12 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 06, 2012, 10:39:47 AM
Quote from: navkatI don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
Wait, what?
That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.
You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".
I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.
Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?
I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).
American ex-convicts are pretty likely to go back to jail at some point. It's not only what happens to them on the inside, it's often also what happened to them in the years leading up to the incarceration, plus I imagine it's hard to get hired anywhere after doing time. Once a criminal, always a criminal, you know? So what do you do for work when everyone thinks you're still a criminal. Well, stealing and dealing probably. Then you're back in jail. "Told you that guy was a criminal," they say then, "can't stay out of trouble."
Yup; once they become institutionalized as criminals there's an incredibly high rate of recidivism. You see this particularly with drug crimes, where, once labeled a felon, many opportunities are stripped from the ex-convict in terms of jobs, living arrangements, educational future, and they return to dealing drugs in order to survive. A second offense receives a harsher penalty than the first, etc. and eventually, a kid with a quarter ounce of pot in a baggie becomes a lifer thanks to three strikes and other "tough on crime" laws.
I think that it's funny that a job application asks "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" followed by "answering yes will have no effect on your chances of employment." Oh? Then why the fuck are you asking?
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 03:57:52 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on June 06, 2012, 01:06:51 AM
Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture. They are psychologically torturous. It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.
I can't decide if I agree with you that it's actual torture (although a mild form at the level I have in my head) and I'm saying "So be it. It's a necessary evil
Stopped reading here. Nav, go find some help, deal with your issues, do what you gotta do, lady. Come talk to me again when you're doing better.
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 03:57:52 AM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on June 06, 2012, 01:06:51 AM
Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture. They are psychologically torturous. It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.
I can't decide if I agree with you that it's actual torture (although a mild form at the level I have in my head) and I'm saying "So be it. It's a necessary evil in this case."
:kingmeh:
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 02:02:21 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 05, 2012, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
That actually makes it a little easier to grasp. Also (not that I'm the poster child for attracting well-adjusted men) but I had a boyfriend who fantasized about being a vampire and going through the vampire death and rebirth process and who romanticized making love to and like a vampire. He was like, obsessed with it. Bought me frilly victorian-looking shirts and liked me to wear dark lipstick and pale makeup. Drank Tawny Port out of bombastically gaudy goblets and offered me sips with this really intense, undead look on his face. Then, Oliver Stone's The Doors movie came out and he was suddenly obsessed with writing poetry and calling me "Pam."
But you have said some things that do (especially since watching that hot mess, ugh!) give me pause. At one point, you said something that gave me the impression that you were sending out a ping to guage if I was open to your proclivities too which is a resounding NO. But it's not the fact that you did it, it was the way you did it. The segue you jumped on was related to the killing of people in political activism circumstances which is a little too realistic of a possibility of happening in real life to be used as an appropriate way to test for something strictly fantasy, follow?
If you're really telling the truth that the idea of real death is repugnant to you while some romanticized, play-acting death scene is what's going on in your head, that sounds a little odd and silly but likely non-threatening. But I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here are uncomfortable with your fetish (or in my case, find it a little icky) so here's probably a not good place to ever, ever send out a signal flare.
I apologize if you thought I was sending out a signal flare. I may have done so without meaning to, you seem like a pretty cool girl and you like fucked up guys, but it wasn't intentional and if I did do it unintentionally I apologize profusely. My plate is actually quite full so if you had responded positively I would have been in an awkward position anyway.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 06, 2012, 08:33:53 PM
Quote from: navkat on June 06, 2012, 02:02:21 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 05, 2012, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 05, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.
Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.
BH is a snuff freak. This is the kind of shit that gets him off.
When it's imaginary.
I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.
That actually makes it a little easier to grasp. Also (not that I'm the poster child for attracting well-adjusted men) but I had a boyfriend who fantasized about being a vampire and going through the vampire death and rebirth process and who romanticized making love to and like a vampire. He was like, obsessed with it. Bought me frilly victorian-looking shirts and liked me to wear dark lipstick and pale makeup. Drank Tawny Port out of bombastically gaudy goblets and offered me sips with this really intense, undead look on his face. Then, Oliver Stone's The Doors movie came out and he was suddenly obsessed with writing poetry and calling me "Pam."
But you have said some things that do (especially since watching that hot mess, ugh!) give me pause. At one point, you said something that gave me the impression that you were sending out a ping to guage if I was open to your proclivities too which is a resounding NO. But it's not the fact that you did it, it was the way you did it. The segue you jumped on was related to the killing of people in political activism circumstances which is a little too realistic of a possibility of happening in real life to be used as an appropriate way to test for something strictly fantasy, follow?
If you're really telling the truth that the idea of real death is repugnant to you while some romanticized, play-acting death scene is what's going on in your head, that sounds a little odd and silly but likely non-threatening. But I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here are uncomfortable with your fetish (or in my case, find it a little icky) so here's probably a not good place to ever, ever send out a signal flare.
I apologize if you thought I was sending out a signal flare. I may have done so without meaning to, you seem like a pretty cool girl and you like fucked up guys, but it wasn't intentional and if I did do it unintentionally I apologize profusely. My plate is actually quite full so if you had responded positively I would have been in an awkward position anyway.
Wow. I'm gonna sick up.
I can't for the life of me think of anything more disgusting than Babylon spending time trying to put the moves on women on PD.
Or thinking that someone like Navcat was fucking hitting on him.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 06, 2012, 08:33:53 PM
you seem like a pretty cool girl and you like fucked up guys
Would this be considered "Negging"?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 08:37:08 PM
I can't for the life of me think of anything more disgusting than Babylon spending time trying to put the moves on women on PD.
Or thinking that someone like Navcat was fucking hitting on him.
well
...
it coulda been
you he put the moves on...
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 06, 2012, 08:44:16 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 06, 2012, 08:33:53 PM
you seem like a pretty cool girl and you like fucked up guys
Would this be considered "Negging"?
Yep. Textbook example, actually.
Then he's saying she can't have him because of all the women he has, which I think is called "baiting".
Someone's been brushing up on his PUA act. Maybe he can't get Wyldkat to make strangulation noises in the cybersex rooms for him anymore.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on June 06, 2012, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 08:37:08 PM
I can't for the life of me think of anything more disgusting than Babylon spending time trying to put the moves on women on PD.
Or thinking that someone like Navcat was fucking hitting on him.
well
...
it coulda been you he put the moves on...
That wouldn't be so much "disgusting", as it would be "BH handing Roger a crate of ammunition and then walking downrange".
i guess it's a matter of perspective.
:lol:
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on June 06, 2012, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 08:37:08 PM
I can't for the life of me think of anything more disgusting than Babylon spending time trying to put the moves on women on PD.
Or thinking that someone like Navcat was fucking hitting on him.
well
...
it coulda been you he put the moves on...
I've said several times that Roger is a sexy sexy beast. he can choke for me anytime.
I don't think navkat was hitting on me. She thought I was hitting on her. I wasn't and I was apologizing for giving the impression that I was.
Thread starts to get LOLZ, then right back to *PUKE*
No hope for this one. :x
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 06, 2012, 09:14:23 PM
I've said several times that Roger is a sexy sexy beast. he can choke for me anytime.
Oh, so you DID have to go there.
This will be interesting.
Hell to pay ITT. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 11:30:03 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 06, 2012, 09:14:23 PM
I've said several times that Roger is a sexy sexy beast. he can choke for me anytime.
Oh, so you DID have to go there.
This will be interesting.
I fear the Wrath.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 06, 2012, 11:30:03 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 06, 2012, 09:14:23 PM
I've said several times that Roger is a sexy sexy beast. he can choke for me anytime.
Oh, so you DID have to go there.
This will be interesting.
Yeah, when I read that earlier I chuckled and shut my phone off.
eta: chuckled, as in when you see someone opening a door they really really shouldn't.
To put it another way.
I like horror.
Most (not all) horror is also snuffporn. Friday the 13th being a notable example.
That given, who wouldn't expect me to open that door? The victim in a horror movie always does and I don't mind playing the victim so long as it's all pretend. Roger is, admittedly, far better at being the monster than the victim, me too, but I'm flexible.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 07, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
To put it another way.
I like horror.
Most (not all) horror is also snuffporn. Friday the 13th being a notable example.
That given, who wouldn't expect me to open that door? The victim in a horror movie always does and I don't mind playing the victim so long as it's all pretend. Roger is, admittedly, far better at being the monster than the victim, me too, but I'm flexible.
Bullshit a true horror film connoisseur knows that the best horror movies are about the tension and not the gore.
Quote from: Faust on June 07, 2012, 08:15:37 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 07, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
To put it another way.
I like horror.
Most (not all) horror is also snuffporn. Friday the 13th being a notable example.
That given, who wouldn't expect me to open that door? The victim in a horror movie always does and I don't mind playing the victim so long as it's all pretend. Roger is, admittedly, far better at being the monster than the victim, me too, but I'm flexible.
Bullshit a true horror film connoisseur knows that the best horror movies are about the tension and not the gore.
Yep. Big difference in horror films and splatter flicks.
Shit, probably most people who don't have rape/murder/rapemurder fantasies or other violent fetishes know that. I hate horror movies and I know that.
Quote from: Faust on June 07, 2012, 08:15:37 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 07, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
To put it another way.
I like horror.
Most (not all) horror is also snuffporn. Friday the 13th being a notable example.
That given, who wouldn't expect me to open that door? The victim in a horror movie always does and I don't mind playing the victim so long as it's all pretend. Roger is, admittedly, far better at being the monster than the victim, me too, but I'm flexible.
Bullshit a true horror film connoisseur knows that the best horror movies are about the tension and not the gore.
Reminds me of a Stephen King quote.
QuoteI recognize terror as the finest emotion and so I will try to terrorize the reader. But if I find that I cannot terrify, I will try to horrify, and if I find that I cannot horrify, I'll go for the gross-out. I'm not proud.
While digging for the exact wording of that, I found this one:
Quote"The 3 types of terror: The Gross-out: the sight of a severed head tumbling down a flight of stairs, it's when the lights go out and something green and slimy splatters against your arm. The Horror: the unnatural, spiders the size of bears, the dead waking up and walking around, it's when the lights go out and something with claws grabs you by the arm. And the last and worse one: Terror, when you come home and notice everything you own had been taken away and replaced by an exact substitute. It's when the lights go out and you feel something behind you, you hear it, you feel its breath against your ear, but when you turn around, there's nothing there..."
Quote from: Faust on June 07, 2012, 08:15:37 AM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on June 07, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
To put it another way.
I like horror.
Most (not all) horror is also snuffporn. Friday the 13th being a notable example.
That given, who wouldn't expect me to open that door? The victim in a horror movie always does and I don't mind playing the victim so long as it's all pretend. Roger is, admittedly, far better at being the monster than the victim, me too, but I'm flexible.
Bullshit a true horror film connoisseur knows that the best horror movies are about the tension and not the gore.
Its hard to jerk off to tension.
I disagree. 10 seasons of The X-Files was built on people jerking off to the unresolved sexual tension between Mulder and Scully.
Its not my fault gillain anderson was hot.
Quote from: Twiddlegeddon on June 07, 2012, 06:48:28 PM
Its not my fault gillain anderson was hot.
Narrow escape, dude. I was just about to blame you.
:lulz:
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 06, 2012, 10:39:47 AM
Quote from: navkatI don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."
Wait, what?
That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.
You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".
I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.
Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?
I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).
Aaaack! I don't know how this one got so out of control. Maybe because I was completely shocked and disgusted at the time.
No, I don't think OUR prisons are righteous but somewhere between afternoon tea then badminton before naptime and "don't drop the soap" is maybe appropriate.
Still shocked and disgusted. Images burned into my head. This guy hurt someone and *liked it*. I'm pissed about the irreparable injustice in that fact and the fact that he will most likely never UN-enjoy it or regret it. That just...SUCKS. It sucks on a level that's difficult to accept.
By 'in between' does that mean you DON'T think it's ok to allow/encourage a culture of rape and sexual assault in prisons? I'm going to take it that way, but I do have to wonder, regarding to previous tone/tirade.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 19, 2012, 10:30:24 AM
By 'in between' does that mean you DON'T think it's ok to allow/encourage a culture of rape and sexual assault in prisons? I'm going to take it that way, but I do have to wonder, regarding to previous tone/tirade.
Of
course I don't think it's okay to rape or torture. That's ridiculous. WHO DOES THAT?
I'm just really...
frustrated that this punk killed someone who seems like a perfectly nice person...someone who had value to others and loved ones and a life and will probably just sit around, deluding himself unchallenged for the rest of his life and chilling in the billiard room, putting on his little show for other mental patients instead of...IDK, I don't think he should suffer
agony but I think his time and therapy should either be 1. Hard work and/or 2. beneficial in some way to advancing the science on this type of stuff.
It's upsetting. I'm actually shocked by my own initial reaction to the whole thing but I'm trying to be candid as well. IDK, maybe that makes me a hypocrite after all: I consider myself a person averse to cruelty of any sort having been victim of the same but I just don't know how I feel about this...I'm angry. There is a significant part of me in a very dark, ugly place that feels like...I don't know...like, if people like this exist and are unfixable and prove themselves predators, maybe they should be
exterminated. That's a
horrible think to say and feel and I hate myself for it. I would never act on it but it's there and instead of lying/denying it, I'm facing/admitting it so that maybe some sunshine can shine in.
My only hope is that it's valid for me to say something to the effect of:
Heroic defense of proper justice occurs
not when the defendant's guilt is ambiguous or controversial, but rather, when his crimes are certain, outrageous and reprehensible. It is
easy to stand for humane and just treatment when the way is cast in doubt but more
honorable when the chant "Off with his head" chokes your every
thought and yet, in spite of this, you proceed in righteousness and peace in
practice.
I feel the very core of my sense of due process and humane treatment challenged but I'm aware that to advocate murder and cruelty makes me little better than that which repulses me.
Wow, that was a very intense self analysis. Props to you, Nav.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 19, 2012, 01:53:58 PM
Wow, that was a very intense self analysis. Props to you, Nav.
Thanks. I'm imperfect but I like to think maybe I can get better if I try honestly.
Quote from: navkat on June 19, 2012, 01:08:59 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 19, 2012, 10:30:24 AM
By 'in between' does that mean you DON'T think it's ok to allow/encourage a culture of rape and sexual assault in prisons? I'm going to take it that way, but I do have to wonder, regarding to previous tone/tirade.
Of course I don't think it's okay to rape or torture. That's ridiculous. WHO DOES THAT?
I'm just really...frustrated that this punk killed someone who seems like a perfectly nice person...someone who had value to others and loved ones and a life and will probably just sit around, deluding himself unchallenged for the rest of his life and chilling in the billiard room, putting on his little show for other mental patients instead of...IDK, I don't think he should suffer agony but I think his time and therapy should either be 1. Hard work and/or 2. beneficial in some way to advancing the science on this type of stuff.
It's upsetting. I'm actually shocked by my own initial reaction to the whole thing but I'm trying to be candid as well. IDK, maybe that makes me a hypocrite after all: I consider myself a person averse to cruelty of any sort having been victim of the same but I just don't know how I feel about this...I'm angry. There is a significant part of me in a very dark, ugly place that feels like...I don't know...like, if people like this exist and are unfixable and prove themselves predators, maybe they should be exterminated. That's a horrible think to say and feel and I hate myself for it. I would never act on it but it's there and instead of lying/denying it, I'm facing/admitting it so that maybe some sunshine can shine in.
My only hope is that it's valid for me to say something to the effect of:
Heroic defense of proper justice occurs not when the defendant's guilt is ambiguous or controversial, but rather, when his crimes are certain, outrageous and reprehensible. It is easy to stand for humane and just treatment when the way is cast in doubt but more honorable when the chant "Off with his head" chokes your every thought and yet, in spite of this, you proceed in righteousness and peace in practice.
I feel the very core of my sense of due process and humane treatment challenged but I'm aware that to advocate murder and cruelty makes me little better than that which repulses me.
One word - "Kneejerk"
don't beat yourself up over it, it's the lynchpin of democratic law
Thanks. :)
Do a barrel roll ITT for srs.
hxtp://www.breakingnews.ie/world/man-who-mailed-body-parts-to-school-is-looking-for-love-on-dating-site-684331.html
In the news again today, So he's set up a prison dating profile.
I'm not sure why he's bothering. A pretty boy like him is gonna get plenty of attention in prison...he wont be wanting for "dates" any time soon. Whether they're dates he wants to be on is of course another question entirely...
I guess he wants to be romanced, maybe the guys in the 25 to life wing have a fear of commitment?
Quote from: Faust on June 29, 2015, 10:44:08 PM
hxtp://www.breakingnews.ie/world/man-who-mailed-body-parts-to-school-is-looking-for-love-on-dating-site-684331.html
In the news again today, So he's set up a prison dating profile.
Welllll that's pretty weird.
Quote from: Faust on June 29, 2015, 10:48:01 PM
I guess he wants to be romanced, maybe the guys in the 25 to life wing have a fear of commitment?
Smuggling in roses and champagne is pretty hard, I'll give them that.
Mrs LMNO decided to watch a movie on Netflix: Don't Fuck With Cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_F**k_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer).
A few minutes in, I asked myself: "how do I know that name?"
A few minutes later: "Holy shit."
Quote from: LMNO on January 05, 2021, 08:47:40 PM
Mrs LMNO decided to watch a movie on Netflix: Don't Fuck With Cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_F**k_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer).
A few minutes in, I asked myself: "how do I know that name?"
A few minutes later: "Holy shit."
Yeah. PD does attract its share.
The worst is he doesnt even rank in the top twenty most annoying kooks we've had
Quote from: LMNO on January 05, 2021, 08:47:40 PM
Mrs LMNO decided to watch a movie on Netflix: Don't Fuck With Cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_F**k_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer).
A few minutes in, I asked myself: "how do I know that name?"
A few minutes later: "Holy shit."
I'm honestly surprised Mrs LMNO hasn't banned you from posting here after that revelation.
Quote from: LMNO on January 05, 2021, 08:47:40 PM
Mrs LMNO decided to watch a movie on Netflix: Don't Fuck With Cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_F**k_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer).
A few minutes in, I asked myself: "how do I know that name?"
A few minutes later: "Holy shit."
I watched it sometime during the COVID blur of this year. Soon as I heard that name, I was like "heyyyy, I've heard this tale before..."
Quote from: Cain on January 06, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: LMNO on January 05, 2021, 08:47:40 PM
Mrs LMNO decided to watch a movie on Netflix: Don't Fuck With Cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_F**k_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer).
A few minutes in, I asked myself: "how do I know that name?"
A few minutes later: "Holy shit."
I'm honestly surprised Mrs LMNO hasn't banned you from posting here after that revelation.
Same here. But it's been so long now, this is pretty much the only form of community I have left.
Yeah I came back and searched his name on here after watching the same thing. Looks like we were one of the sites he tried to make it look like the video existed before it actually did. Creep.
Quote from: LMNO on January 05, 2021, 08:47:40 PM
Mrs LMNO decided to watch a movie on Netflix: Don't Fuck With Cats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_F**k_with_Cats:_Hunting_an_Internet_Killer).
A few minutes in, I asked myself: "how do I know that name?"
A few minutes later: "Holy shit."
Exactly the same a couple of months back. Explained it to Mrs P3nT about ten minutes in when I figured it out. Next thing she's all like "You called a serial killer a skinny little what? What the fuck else do you get up to online?" and I'm like "Dafuq woman, I never even pretended I was normal, you just chose to ignore it." Now I'm in the doghouse and she's vetting my forum join requests in case I get us both killed on youtube. I feel that after 20 years together my wife finally understands me 8)
Well THAT was a wild fucking ride. I guess I missed it the first time around -- now I know I need to go watch the flick. Holy shit.